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Armstrong and Landis and Doping, Oh My!

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miloman said:
Does anyone really believe we will ever get to the bottom of this? Will anyone be prosecuted?


You seem to have confused Truth and Justice: two very different things that may well be mutually exclusive in this investigation and possible prosecution. Let it go, man. Let it be.


I may be mistaken, but there's an overwhelming troll odor coming from your posts, miloman. Lots of pent-up words for such a new forum participant. Let me guess: long time reader, first time rant, under this name anyway.
 

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Wow. Is this a feeler from Public Strategies?

Can we expect this message to eventually bubble to the top from Armstrong PR? I love it! For Armstrong to admit to doping, but with a "So What?" attached to the end of the admission.

I've wondered if this would be the route that Armstrong's PR people would take when the evidence for PED use was so overwhelming as to convince even the general public.

(I'll let others point out the two or three logical fallacies in miloman's last post)
 
Jun 21, 2009
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miloman said:
We Americans have difficulty seeing sports for what it really is – entertainment!

you're off your head, sports fans all over the rest of the world is fighting to not let their sports be americanized i.e. turned into pure entertainment where nothing else counts.

however you're not very entertaining, your post is far too long and lacks the edge not to bore us all
 
Jun 19, 2009
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miloman said:
I think many of you missed the point.

We’re on a train to nowhere!

Tell Lance he's part right with this assertion. 'Cept he's the only one on the train at this point.

Cue up: The Conductor Wears Black. A great song by Rank and File.
 
Jan 27, 2010
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miloman said:
Do we start with Riis? What about Ullrich or Pantani? If Johan Bruynel is the architect of ...

Lets start with Lance shall we. He is the the highest 'profile' champion cyclist in the last 12 yrs.

And, if the big bad wolf is taken to the shed and dealt with, it may serve as the best deterrent to other cyclists. "If LA can be taken down, I'm now match for them."

Take LA down.

NW
 
miloman said:
So, back to my original argument. What’s the point?

The point is we need to expose someone who SAID he achieved what he did without drugs, when the whole time he helped orchestrate a massive dope peddling scheme that allowed not only him but his domestiques to dominate the Tour for 7 striahgt years, a physical impossibility even for the most talented of riders, which Armstrong certainly was not.

And he cheated all the while saying he was clean. And is still saying it.

That is the whole premise behind the public outrage-the lying to his fans, to the cancer community, to all those corporate entities that backed him and made him a wealthy man.

This isn't just about one man doping in cycling. This is about the empire he built and the fortune he amassed on fraud and deceit-looking everybody in the eye and saying "I never doped" when dope is what fueled his Tour victories, without which he would have had none. ZERO.

By the way, if sports were just another arm of the entertainment business, there would exist an "anything goes" atmosphere. There isn't. There are rules that must be followed, and cheaters should be held accountable. Just like in real life.

And just like in real life, when you scam your way to riches beyond belief, someone is going to show concern over how you did it. Since we do not live in a third world country, where the justice system is a bit different than here in the US, the Feds have rightfully shown due concern over the claims made against Armstrong and are throwing their prosecutorial weight behind behind the investigation. Because it DOES matter.

You are taking an apologist point of view. In the end your points are devoid of morality, ethics and sense of outrage over being lied to and cheated.

That is not the only reason you're wrong, but it is the main reason.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Berzin said:
The point is we need to expose someone who SAID he achieved what he did without drugs, when the whole time he helped orchestrate a massive dope peddling scheme that allowed not only him but his domestiques to dominate the Tour for 7 striahgt years, a physical impossibility even for the most talented of riders, which Armstrong certainly was not.

And he cheated all the while saying he was clean. And is still saying it.

That is the whole premise behind the public outrage-the lying to his fans, to the cancer community, to all those corporate entities that backed him and made him a wealthy man.

This isn't just about one man doping in cycling. This is about the empire he built and the fortune he amassed on fraud and deceit-looking everybody in the eye and saying "I never doped" when dope is what fueled his Tour victories, without which he would have had none. ZERO.

By the way, if sports were just another arm of the entertainment business, there would exist an "anything goes" atmosphere. There isn't. There are rules that must be followed, and cheaters should be held accountable. Just like in real life.

And just like in real life, when you scam your way to riches beyond belief, someone is going to show concern over how you did it. Since we do not live in a third world country, where the justice system is a bit different than here in the US, the Feds have rightfully shown due concern over the claims made against Armstrong and are throwing their prosecutorial weight behind behind the investigation. Because it DOES matter.

You are taking an apologist point of view. In the end your points are devoid of morality, ethics and sense of outrage over being lied to and cheated.

That is not the only reason you're wrong, but it is the main reason.

Another good one, Berzin.

You seem to grasp the need/desire to run the dopers out, nice!
 
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Put another way for Milo: Lance not only lip-synched but he stole the songs, packed the Grammies to assure he got an award. Then he told everyone he was Michael Jackson and never touched the boys.
 

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Berzin said:
The point is we need to expose someone who SAID he achieved what he did without drugs, when the whole time he helped orchestrate a massive dope peddling scheme that allowed not only him but his domestiques to dominate the Tour for 7 striahgt years, a physical impossibility even for the most talented of riders, which Armstrong certainly was not.

And he cheated all the while saying he was clean. And is still saying it.

That is the whole premise behind the public outrage-the lying to his fans, to the cancer community, to all those corporate entities that backed him and made him a wealthy man.

This isn't just about one man doping in cycling. This is about the empire he built and the fortune he amassed on fraud and deceit-looking everybody in the eye and saying "I never doped" when dope is what fueled his Tour victories, without which he would have had none. ZERO.

By the way, if sports were just another arm of the entertainment business, there would exist an "anything goes" atmosphere. There isn't. There are rules that must be followed, and cheaters should be held accountable. Just like in real life.

And just like in real life, when you scam your way to riches beyond belief, someone is going to show concern over how you did it. Since we do not live in a third world country, where the justice system is a bit different than here in the US, the Feds have rightfully shown due concern over the claims made against Armstrong and are throwing their prosecutorial weight behind behind the investigation. Because it DOES matter.

You are taking an apologist point of view. In the end your points are devoid of morality, ethics and sense of outrage over being lied to and cheated.

That is not the only reason you're wrong, but it is the main reason.

You know it sounds great. Lets take every win person you thought cheated from every sport and delete them from the books. Yep from day 1.
 
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Hi long time lurker first time poster. I think you should all get
off lance's bac....:D
no seriously, this sums it all up perfectly, so much so I've
been moved to post my appreciation



JMBeaushrimp said:
Milo, that what quite a polemic.

The argument between elite sport and Hollywood is not really holding water. You equate doping in sport to someone doing botox to extend their career in the media. There happens to be a massive difference.

Sport, upheld as it should be without doping, is MEANT to be unfair. It is the last bastion of 'unfairness' we have in western society. Someone wins, and everyone else is beaten. It is the last bastion of meritocracy left (assuming doping is left out).

The goal of sport is not entertainment. It is to provide an avenue of competition for those who think they can do and be better than others. Based on nothing more than their ability to do it. It's not democratic, it's not based on what people think about someone, whether there are questionable means to 'level' the playing field, it is solely based on what someone can do.

The arguments that someone doped less than someone else falls under this same umbrella - they broke the covenant of sport.

Based on the underlying tenets of sport, it MUST be kept clean. And by keeping it clean some peoples' feelings will be hurt. That happens to be the result of sport. Some people can do more than others, some peoplel are faster, some people can jump higher, some can jump further.

By someone losing to someone else they may be motivated to strive harder to not be beaten again, that's the idea. The idea is not to win at all costs, modify your physiology so you can perform beyond your natural ability, and cheat.

Sport, as I interpret it, is meant to bring out the finer points of being a competitive human. Suck up the losses, learn as much from them as the victories, and keep trying to be better.

As the last vestige of a true meritocracy left, I think we should all work for cleaning up sport and support all the avenues that that path is taking.

It's a bit more than running in for a tummy tuck and a shot of botox, it's about being able to DO as much as you can do. If that's not enough, then you learn from it and prepare to kick as much *** you can the next time around.

Thank god sport's not based on what your face and tits look like...
 
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JMBeaushrimp said:
Another good one, Berzin.

You seem to grasp the need/desire to run the dopers out, nice!

berzin's been on the roll lately and i find his posts on the mark...one thing makes me wonder though, do the the forum readers (at large !) share the same high moral ground ?

im questioning this not to spoil or something but to recall my own surprise at the simple poll results posted here some time - between 2/3 and 3/4 members said they'd dope had they been under the circumstances a pro rider faced. :confused:

i did not vote btw.
 
python said:
im questioning this not to spoil or something but to recall my own surprise at the simple poll results posted here some time - between 2/3 and 3/4 members said they'd dope had they been under the circumstances a pro rider faced. :confused:

i did not vote btw.
I'd say between 1/4 and 1/3 members were fooling themselves. It might be different today (I'd like to think it is), but it would seem by 1996 virtually everybody was on EPO. I don't think I'm so special and righteous that I would have been any different. When something is so widespread, it stops being primarily a moral issue.
 
python said:
berzin's been on the roll lately and i find his posts on the mark...one thing makes me wonder though, do the the forum readers (at large !) share the same high moral ground ?

im questioning this not to spoil or something but to recall my own surprise at the simple poll results posted here some time - between 2/3 and 3/4 members said they'd dope had they been under the circumstances a pro rider faced. :confused:

i did not vote btw.

I did not vote either because I could not put myself in that position of pressure.

I do still think that dopers violate known rules and should be punished.

And the biggest dopers who cheated everybody and got super-rich, should be punished too, and not allowed to buy their way out.
 
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Right or wrong?

It isn’t a question of what’s “right or wrong,” it’s a question of who is the right person, or in this case, the right entity and proper forum, to right whatever wrong was committed. I stand by my statement that sports are simply entertainment! Why does Versus and Universal Sports pay for the rights to televise the Tour de France and Vuelta respectively? It’s for entertainment purposes and to generate advertising revenue. They know that there is a segment of the population who will sit in front of their TV for 2 hours, watching the spectacle, and advertisers will pay a predetermined amount of money to hoc their products to the audience. Does everyone who watches the Superbowl play American Football? Of course not! Does everyone who watches cycling on televison ride 3 times a week and compete at some level? No! Like most all sports, it’s appreciated on many different levels and there are fans for a myriad of reasons.

I don’t condone what was done, in fact I detest it! I am one of the suckers who have always played by the rules and came up short while others chose to cut corners and succeeded. I could argue that their success should have been mine. But at the end of the day, I still needed to look at myself in the mirror and like who I saw. I have kids. Results or not, I would never want to be in the position of having to lie to them to protect an image. On more than one occasion I have imagined what it would be like to have your child come to you and ask you point blank if you cheated or doped. I don’t think the pat answer that “I was the most tested athlete in the world and I never failed a drug test” would suffice. However, in a court of law, that is the evidence that carries the most weight.

Why did Marion Jones go to jail? Not because she took performance enhancing drugs, but because she lied to a grand jury. She went to jail for perjury. Roger Clemmons may suffer the same fate. Arrogance was their downfall, and maybe it will be Lance’s. But to expect the US Government to right this wrong, and put thing straight, is misguided.

Sports have their governing bodies. The UCI, WADA etc. were responsible for setting up the rules and enforcing them. Whether they were/are incompetent or complicitous, that’s a matter that needs to be taken up by cycling’s rank and file. But don’t expect someone else to do their dirty work. If you are so doggedly determined to see a grand jury convened and have this case heard, why not set up a fund to help cover the costs. Like the deplorable “Floyd Fairness Fund,” we can establish the “Lynch Lance Fund” and send the money to our legislators. Then we can sit around our TV’s and watch CSPAN, knowing that we, the cycling community, have spoken with our wallets. And for those of us who would rather be out riding or spending times with our kids, there’s always TiVo.

Let me propose a radical idea. Why not commit to volunteering in your community or schools? So many government programs have been cut recently and our schools are severely underfunded. Make a difference! What will the price tag be for this inquiry? Estimates from the recent balco laboratory case put the figure upwards of $50 million dollars. $50 million! $50 million will pave a lot of bike paths; fund a lot of afterschool programs. Given the economy, is this best use of taxpayer’s money? I’d rather see the bike paths!
 
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miloman said:
It isn’t a question of what’s “right or wrong,” it’s a question of who is the right person, or in this case, the right entity and proper forum, to right whatever wrong was committed. I stand by my statement that sports are simply entertainment! Why does Versus and Universal Sports pay for the rights to televise the Tour de France and Vuelta respectively? It’s for entertainment purposes and to generate advertising revenue. They know that there is a segment of the population who will sit in front of their TV for 2 hours, watching the spectacle, and advertisers will pay a predetermined amount of money to hoc their products to the audience. Does everyone who watches the Superbowl play American Football? Of course not! Does everyone who watches cycling on televison ride 3 times a week and compete at some level? No! Like most all sports, it’s appreciated on many different levels and there are fans for a myriad of reasons.

I don’t condone what was done, in fact I detest it! I am one of the suckers who have always played by the rules and came up short while others chose to cut corners and succeeded. I could argue that their success should have been mine. But at the end of the day, I still needed to look at myself in the mirror and like who I saw. I have kids. Results or not, I would never want to be in the position of having to lie to them to protect an image. On more than one occasion I have imagined what it would be like to have your child come to you and ask you point blank if you cheated or doped. I don’t think the pat answer that “I was the most tested athlete in the world and I never failed a drug test” would suffice. However, in a court of law, that is the evidence that carries the most weight.

Why did Marion Jones go to jail? Not because she took performance enhancing drugs, but because she lied to a grand jury. She went to jail for perjury. Roger Clemmons may suffer the same fate. Arrogance was their downfall, and maybe it will be Lance’s. But to expect the US Government to right this wrong, and put thing straight, is misguided.

Sports have their governing bodies. The UCI, WADA etc. were responsible for setting up the rules and enforcing them. Whether they were/are incompetent or complicitous, that’s a matter that needs to be taken up by cycling’s rank and file. But don’t expect someone else to do their dirty work. If you are so doggedly determined to see a grand jury convened and have this case heard, why not set up a fund to help cover the costs. Like the deplorable “Floyd Fairness Fund,” we can establish the “Lynch Lance Fund” and send the money to our legislators. Then we can sit around our TV’s and watch CSPAN, knowing that we, the cycling community, have spoken with our wallets. And for those of us who would rather be out riding or spending times with our kids, there’s always TiVo.

Let me propose a radical idea. Why not commit to volunteering in your community or schools? So many government programs have been cut recently and our schools are severely underfunded. Make a difference! What will the price tag be for this inquiry? Estimates from the recent balco laboratory case put the figure upwards of $50 million dollars. $50 million! $50 million will pave a lot of bike paths; fund a lot of afterschool programs. Given the economy, is this best use of taxpayer’s money? I’d rather see the bike paths!

I share much of your perspective, on many of the same levels. In the bigger scope of world problems, I have seen what harm can come when truly evil people do wrong. The "Lance" scandal is insignificant in the world of wrongdoing, save that the stage it has been played out makes it, in itself, entertainment.

As for clean sport as entertainment, I'd argue that clean or dirty, the sport of cycling must first be governed by fairplay for it to be a sport and sports as entertainment is simply personal choice. What makes it special is the connection that a person has with it based on everyone having a bike and riding roads the racers travel.

In the context of society, it is very important to have boundaries whereby fraud and theft must be limited. Scandals like Bernie Maddoff and Michael Milken are strong in our view when ones own greed and arrogance overcomes the standards of society and law. Skirting laws and rules come with consequences. Frauding a Govt out of many tens of millions will always draw a reaction, and rightly so. Citing a bigger problem, in an effort to discount the need to attend to a clearly smaller one does not minimize the wrongdoing, only the scale of the wrong itself.

I find myself drawn to this scandal because of the US legal complications attached. It is fascinating. If Lance and his peers are proven to have committed this fraud, it cannot go unpunished. It is the function of justice to determine who, what, where, when, why and how. They won't ignore this because of "who", and their altruistic actions benefiting cancer victim hope. This is not Robin Hood.

I think the idea of volunteer-ism is one that separates us from the animals. Doing good for society, with no expectation for something in return, is what makes us human. One can do so in many ways, and if sports is your calling, there is no limit of ways to offer help to teams and organizations where one can educate youth about ideals of sport - fairplay and sportsmanship, team work, hard work, achievement, failure, etc.

Applying your logic to this scandal, though, ignores many tenets of what society views as sacred, specifically about justice and laws. Break the law, suffer the consequences. Justice must be blind, and this is what keeps folks on the law-abiding side. Founding a charity does not provide immunity.
 

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miloman said:
It isn’t a question of what’s “right or wrong,” it’s a question of who is the right person, or in this case, the right entity and proper forum, to right whatever wrong was committed. I stand by my statement that sports are simply entertainment! Why does Versus and Universal Sports pay for the rights to televise the Tour de France and Vuelta respectively? It’s for entertainment purposes and to generate advertising revenue. They know that there is a segment of the population who will sit in front of their TV for 2 hours, watching the spectacle, and advertisers will pay a predetermined amount of money to hoc their products to the audience. Does everyone who watches the Superbowl play American Football? Of course not! Does everyone who watches cycling on televison ride 3 times a week and compete at some level? No! Like most all sports, it’s appreciated on many different levels and there are fans for a myriad of reasons.

I don’t condone what was done, in fact I detest it! I am one of the suckers who have always played by the rules and came up short while others chose to cut corners and succeeded. I could argue that their success should have been mine. But at the end of the day, I still needed to look at myself in the mirror and like who I saw. I have kids. Results or not, I would never want to be in the position of having to lie to them to protect an image. On more than one occasion I have imagined what it would be like to have your child come to you and ask you point blank if you cheated or doped. I don’t think the pat answer that “I was the most tested athlete in the world and I never failed a drug test” would suffice. However, in a court of law, that is the evidence that carries the most weight.

Why did Marion Jones go to jail? Not because she took performance enhancing drugs, but because she lied to a grand jury. She went to jail for perjury. Roger Clemmons may suffer the same fate. Arrogance was their downfall, and maybe it will be Lance’s. But to expect the US Government to right this wrong, and put thing straight, is misguided.

Sports have their governing bodies. The UCI, WADA etc. were responsible for setting up the rules and enforcing them. Whether they were/are incompetent or complicitous, that’s a matter that needs to be taken up by cycling’s rank and file. But don’t expect someone else to do their dirty work. If you are so doggedly determined to see a grand jury convened and have this case heard, why not set up a fund to help cover the costs. Like the deplorable “Floyd Fairness Fund,” we can establish the “Lynch Lance Fund” and send the money to our legislators. Then we can sit around our TV’s and watch CSPAN, knowing that we, the cycling community, have spoken with our wallets. And for those of us who would rather be out riding or spending times with our kids, there’s always TiVo.

Let me propose a radical idea. Why not commit to volunteering in your community or schools? So many government programs have been cut recently and our schools are severely underfunded. Make a difference! What will the price tag be for this inquiry? Estimates from the recent balco laboratory case put the figure upwards of $50 million dollars. $50 million! $50 million will pave a lot of bike paths; fund a lot of afterschool programs. Given the economy, is this best use of taxpayer’s money? I’d rather see the bike paths!

Help me out here:
You detest doping?
But don't want the proper authorities to investigate? You want the corrupt organizations to investigate themselves?


I have a proposal for you:
If you think Versus and Universal Sports are only interested in entertainment - than why not get them to foot the bill of the investigations - that way you can pretend to detest the doping, look your kids in the eye - and get the proceedings live every day.

And because we will all be locked indoors following events while munching popcorn and drinking Michelob Ultra the Government won't have to waste money building bikepaths.
 
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miloman said:
It isn’t a question of what’s “right or wrong,” it’s a question of who is the right person, or in this case, the right entity and proper forum, to right whatever wrong was committed. I stand by my statement that sports are simply entertainment! Why does Versus and Universal Sports pay for the rights to televise the Tour de France and Vuelta respectively? It’s for entertainment purposes and to generate advertising revenue. They know that there is a segment of the population who will sit in front of their TV for 2 hours, watching the spectacle, and advertisers will pay a predetermined amount of money to hoc their products to the audience. Does everyone who watches the Superbowl play American Football? Of course not! Does everyone who watches cycling on televison ride 3 times a week and compete at some level? No! Like most all sports, it’s appreciated on many different levels and there are fans for a myriad of reasons.

I don’t condone what was done, in fact I detest it! I am one of the suckers who have always played by the rules and came up short while others chose to cut corners and succeeded. I could argue that their success should have been mine. But at the end of the day, I still needed to look at myself in the mirror and like who I saw. I have kids. Results or not, I would never want to be in the position of having to lie to them to protect an image. On more than one occasion I have imagined what it would be like to have your child come to you and ask you point blank if you cheated or doped. I don’t think the pat answer that “I was the most tested athlete in the world and I never failed a drug test” would suffice. However, in a court of law, that is the evidence that carries the most weight.

Why did Marion Jones go to jail? Not because she took performance enhancing drugs, but because she lied to a grand jury. She went to jail for perjury. Roger Clemmons may suffer the same fate. Arrogance was their downfall, and maybe it will be Lance’s. But to expect the US Government to right this wrong, and put thing straight, is misguided.

Sports have their governing bodies. The UCI, WADA etc. were responsible for setting up the rules and enforcing them. Whether they were/are incompetent or complicitous, that’s a matter that needs to be taken up by cycling’s rank and file. But don’t expect someone else to do their dirty work. If you are so doggedly determined to see a grand jury convened and have this case heard, why not set up a fund to help cover the costs. Like the deplorable “Floyd Fairness Fund,” we can establish the “Lynch Lance Fund” and send the money to our legislators. Then we can sit around our TV’s and watch CSPAN, knowing that we, the cycling community, have spoken with our wallets. And for those of us who would rather be out riding or spending times with our kids, there’s always TiVo.

Let me propose a radical idea. Why not commit to volunteering in your community or schools? So many government programs have been cut recently and our schools are severely underfunded. Make a difference! What will the price tag be for this inquiry? Estimates from the recent balco laboratory case put the figure upwards of $50 million dollars. $50 million! $50 million will pave a lot of bike paths; fund a lot of afterschool programs. Given the economy, is this best use of taxpayer’s money? I’d rather see the bike paths!

I have and continue to work for trails and bike access in our area as does much of the club and racing community. To suggest folks that take a moral stand are wasting time and resources is pointlessly diversionary.

To compare a rock star's drug use with a sports figure's attempts to create a legacy is also a feeble diversionary argument. The rock star seldom lies about the drug use and pays the price for it, eventually.

Despite cycling's long and sketchy history there hasn't ever been offerred a credible reason to cheat. The "even playing field" argument can always be refuted and that's why many of us still love the sport. It is really f*cking hard! To render it accessible to any by soft-selling PED use is to destroy the soul of the effort. If you had ever trained in a disciplined manner and raced well beyond your perceived limits you'd understand that sporting essence.

Making a case for comparative cheating will reduce sports to an "everyone's a winner" mediocrity. As in business, religion and politics it should be the human endeavor to improve. We're going to die so we may as well make the best compost we can but not the type that smells as bad as your argument.
 
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I agree with much of what you wrote. However, where we differ is who we think should be responsible for meting out justice. Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis and other professional cyclist were found guilty of doping and served sentences handed down by the governing body of their sport. Likewise, Major League Baseball, the NBA and the NFL are responsible for policing their players and handing out sanctions. Ben Roethlisberger will be sitting on the sidelines for a month not because he was found guilty in a court of law, but rather, because the NFL Commissioner saw the situation as an embarrassment to the league and acted decisively to protect the product which is the National Football League. No player is greater the League! No rider should be more important than the UCI. Professional cycling needs stronger stakeholders willing to make hard decisions with their eye on protecting the product. Force the UCI and WADA to take action, or force them to disband and create a new organization that actually will do what it’s supposed to.
 

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miloman said:
I agree with much of what you wrote. However, where we differ is who we think should be responsible for meting out justice. Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis and other professional cyclist were found guilty of doping and served sentences handed down by the governing body of their sport. Likewise, Major League Baseball, the NBA and the NFL are responsible for policing their players and handing out sanctions. Ben Roethlisberger will be sitting on the sidelines for a month not because he was found guilty in a court of law, but rather, because the NFL Commissioner saw the situation as an embarrassment to the league and acted decisively to protect the product which is the National Football League. No player is greater the League! No rider should be more important than the UCI. Professional cycling needs stronger stakeholders willing to make hard decisions with their eye on protecting the product. Force the UCI and WADA to take action, or force them to disband and create a new organization that actually will do what it’s supposed to.

Yes - they were found guilty of doping and were properly sanctioned.

This investigation is bigger.
As it investigates a potentially team wide doping practise, paid for and sanctioned by those in control- that potentially defrauded your Government - and as USAC is effectively controlled by the very people being investigated it requires a proper and thorough investigation.
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Yes - they were found guilty of doping and were properly sanctioned.

This investigation is bigger.
As it investigates a potentially team wide doping practise, paid for and sanctioned by those in control- that potentially defrauded your Government - and as USAC is effectively controlled by the very people being investigated it requires a proper and thorough investigation.

Maybe now he gets the distinction.
 
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Usps

I agree with you, to a point. But, playing the Devil’s advocate, I believe the United States Postal Service (USPS) is an independent agency of the federal government. Since its reorganization under the Postal Reorganization Act in 1983, it ceased to be a part of the federal government and become self-sufficient and no longer received taxpayer-dollars. The Senate and House of Representative only have oversight authority to approve fee hikes.
And in regards to wide-spread systematic doping within a team, remember Festina, ONCE and Liberty Suguros
 
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Uggg, where to begin?
A few important points that others have probably seen as well:

Sport is about competition. The “entertainment” is a by-product and secondary to the competition. Case in point: grass-roots competitions are sport at their purest form. You enter the event, pay the entry fee, and compete. The event is primarily run FOR THE COMPETITORS. The spectators are not the primary reason. Many local bike races here have no spectators at all, but large fields of competitors. They race for themselves, not to provide entertainment to anyone.

This investigation is about quite a bit more than JUST DOPING. Pay attention, elsewise you come across as very ill informed. Evidence point to the conclusion that Armstrong wasn’t just an ordinary cheat, but a bully, liar, fraud, and {fill in the blank} ontop of it.

Justice is more important than “moving on”. Who would really benefit from moving on, anyway? Perhaps the guilty.

Investigating crimes like this is WHAT OUR TAXPAYER DOLLARS ARE FOR, in part, of course.

This is not about “changing” the past, but rather for punishing misdeeds from the past, hopefully to catch those who deserve said punishment and to send the message to those who would consider such action in the future.

None of this is rocket science, it is really not that hard to grasp…
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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miloman said:
I agree with you, to a point. But, playing the Devil’s advocate, I believe the United States Postal Service (USPS) is an independent agency of the federal government. Since its reorganization under the Postal Reorganization Act in 1983, it ceased to be a part of the federal government and become self-sufficient and no longer received taxpayer-dollars. The Senate and House of Representative only have oversight authority to approve fee hikes.
And in regards to wide-spread systematic doping within a team, remember Festina, ONCE and Liberty Suguros

None of the riders from Festina ever failed a PED test ....... how were they caught again?

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miloman said:
I agree with you, to a point. But, playing the Devil’s advocate, I believe the United States Postal Service (USPS) is an independent agency of the federal government. Since its reorganization under the Postal Reorganization Act in 1983, it ceased to be a part of the federal government and become self-sufficient and no longer received taxpayer-dollars. The Senate and House of Representative only have oversight authority to approve fee hikes.
And in regards to wide-spread systematic doping within a team, remember Festina, ONCE and Liberty Suguros

While the Post Office is no longer government-subsidized, it most certainly is a part of the federal government...

The USPS is often mistaken for a government-owned corporation (e.g., Amtrak), but as noted above is legally defined as an "independent establishment of the executive branch of the Government of the United States," (39 U.S.C. § 201) as it is wholly owned by the government and controlled by the Presidential appointees and the Postmaster General. As a quasi-governmental agency, it has many special privileges, including sovereign immunity, eminent domain powers, powers to negotiate postal treaties with foreign nations, and an exclusive legal right to deliver first-class and third-class mail. Indeed, in 2004, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in a unanimous decision that the USPS was not a government-owned corporation, and therefore could not be sued under the Sherman Antitrust Act.[25] The U.S. Supreme Court has also upheld the USPS's statutory monopoly on access to letter boxes against a First Amendment freedom of speech challenge; it thus remains illegal in the U.S. for anyone other than the employees and agents of the USPS to deliver mailpieces to letter boxes marked "U.S. Mail."[26]

Title 29, Section 101.1 United States Code:

(a) The United States Postal Service shall be operated as a basic and fundamental service provided to the people by the Government of the United States, authorized by the Constitution, created by Act of Congress, and supported by the people. The Postal Service shall have as its basic function the obligation to provide postal services to bind the Nation together through the personal, educational, literary, and business correspondence of the people. It shall provide prompt, reliable, and efficient services to patrons in all areas and shall render postal services to all communities. The costs of establishing and maintaining the Postal Service shall not be apportioned to impair the overall value of such service to the people.
 
miloman said:
I agree with you, to a point. But, playing the Devil’s advocate, I believe the United States Postal Service (USPS) is an independent agency of the federal government. Since its reorganization under the Postal Reorganization Act in 1983, it ceased to be a part of the federal government and become self-sufficient and no longer received taxpayer-dollars. The Senate and House of Representative only have oversight authority to approve fee hikes.
And in regards to wide-spread systematic doping within a team, remember Festina, ONCE and Liberty Suguros

What I remember was the Festina trails in 2000. Virenque after 3 years and 1 book aptly named “my truth” stating he never doped faced with a prison term sat in the dock. He stuck to his guns. “I never doped”. Then something strange happened. Willy Voet was sitting in the court room. Shook his head at Richard. Then the unthinkable happened. Virenque started to cry. And cried some more. He then cried a lot more. And there on the stand he confessed everything. After being stood down he walked up to Willy Voet hugged him and started crying again. Miracles do happen.
 
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