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Armstrong and Landis and Doping, Oh My!

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Jan 5, 2010
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This investigation is about quite a bit more than JUST DOPING. Pay attention, elsewise you come across as very ill informed. Evidence point to the conclusion that Armstrong wasn’t just an ordinary cheat, but a bully, liar, fraud, and {fill in the blank} ontop of it.

Okay, call me ill-informed, but you presuppose that either one of us was cheated. I wasn’t competing and I doubt you were either. I’m not a fan of Lance Armstrong. I agree he seems like an egocentric jerk, but he didn’t beat me; so let someone whom he cheated take up the fight! In a court of law, I can’t file a lawsuit unless I can prove damages. It’s considered frivolous. I, like millions of others, simply watched and enjoyed the action vicariously. It’s unfortunate that whatever he did during those years, he probably did juiced to the gills. Perhaps someone who lost to Armstrong could investigate the possibility of filing a civil lawsuit. I’d rather see them get millions than the federal government waste tax-payer’s money on an investigation that has all the earmarks of a loser.
 
Jan 5, 2010
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Okay, call me ill-informed, but you presuppose that either one of us was cheated. I wasn’t competing and I doubt you were either. I’m not a fan of Lance Armstrong. I agree he seems like an egocentric jerk, but he didn’t beat me; so let someone whom he cheated take up the fight! In a court of law, I can’t file a lawsuit unless I can prove damages. It’s considered frivolous. I, like millions of others, simply watched and enjoyed the action vicariously. It’s unfortunate that whatever he did during those years, he probably did juiced to the gills. Perhaps someone who lost to Armstrong could investigate the possibility of filing a civil lawsuit. I’d rather see them get millions than the federal government waste tax-payer’s money on an investigation that has all the earmarks of a loser.
 
May 23, 2010
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miloman said:
Okay, call me ill-informed, but you presuppose that either one of us was cheated. I wasn’t competing and I doubt you were either. I’m not a fan of Lance Armstrong. I agree he seems like an egocentric jerk, but he didn’t beat me; so let someone whom he cheated take up the fight! In a court of law, I can’t file a lawsuit unless I can prove damages. It’s considered frivolous. I, like millions of others, simply watched and enjoyed the action vicariously. It’s unfortunate that whatever he did during those years, he probably did juiced to the gills. Perhaps someone who lost to Armstrong could investigate the possibility of filing a civil lawsuit. I’d rather see them get millions than the federal government waste tax-payer’s money on an investigation that has all the earmarks of a loser.

Not sure where you get your logic:

1. If Landis' lawsuit is frivolous, it will get tossed out. No worries here?

2. If Tailwind Sports et al did break the "Federal false claims" act, the government stands to RECOVER taxpayer monies. No waste there?

3. Neither the civil nor the criminal case is about doping. Both are looking at whether federal laws were broken. Armstong ended his career "clean", never caught for PEDs in an official doping test. And it doesn't matter here.
 
May 7, 2009
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miloman said:
Okay, call me ill-informed, but you presuppose that either one of us was cheated. I wasn’t competing and I doubt you were either. I’m not a fan of Lance Armstrong. I agree he seems like an egocentric jerk, but he didn’t beat me; so let someone whom he cheated take up the fight! In a court of law, I can’t file a lawsuit unless I can prove damages. It’s considered frivolous. I, like millions of others, simply watched and enjoyed the action vicariously. It’s unfortunate that whatever he did during those years, he probably did juiced to the gills. Perhaps someone who lost to Armstrong could investigate the possibility of filing a civil lawsuit. I’d rather see them get millions than the federal government waste tax-payer’s money on an investigation that has all the earmarks of a loser.

Umm, no I did not presuppose you or I competed against LA. I was merely giving an example of the basic purpose of sport.

Your posts read like you are being paid to "think" this way.....

And the whole point is that this is not a civil case, but a criminal investigation.

In any case, it doesn't really matter if you convince anyone here that your viewpoint should be adopted (I seriously doubt it will). The people you really need to convince probably don't hang out here.

It is most likely doomed either way, though.

Why do you hate justice?
:rolleyes:
 
Jan 5, 2010
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I don’t hate justice, I hate waste and futility! Haven’t we seen this scenario play out time and again? It’s the “Golden Rule.” “He with the gold makes the rule!” Maybe they should go after these guys like they went after Al Capone and get them for tax evasion. Now that will stick . . . oh wait, under new federal guidelines you’re allowed to negotiate with the IRS. Where’s Wesley Snipes?
 
May 23, 2010
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miloman said:
I don’t hate justice, I hate waste and futility! Haven’t we seen this scenario play out time and again? It’s the “Golden Rule.” “He with the gold makes the rule!” Maybe they should go after these guys like they went after Al Capone and get them for tax evasion. Now that will stick . . . oh wait, under new federal guidelines you’re allowed to negotiate with the IRS. Where’s Wesley Snipes?

Lance has a lot of gold and did indeed make the rules for many years.

Your wish may yet come true - Mr Novitzky is a former IRS investigator, and there have been rumors that he will be looking carefully at all money transactions by Tailwind Sports and its management, especially those that were done off the official bookkeeping. Tax evasion !

Armstrong - modern day Al Capone?
 
Jul 22, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
When the "**** hits the fan" for lance, will he bring everyone down with him or will he just deny, deny and deny everything.
I'm sure he'll continue to play the deny card for all it's worth.

Although, if he's forced into a corner and has to come clean, I think it will be 'katy bar the door'!

If that happens, my quarter says he'll step on someone's head to keep from drowning in a minute!
 
May 15, 2010
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tockit said:
I'm sure he'll continue to play the deny card for all it's worth.

Although, if he's forced into a corner and has to come clean, I think it will be 'katy bar the door'!

If that happens, my quarter says he'll step on someone's head to keep from drowning in a minute!

I'll bet he knows 'where tons of bodies are buried'. Wouldn't that be a treasure trove of names we already knew and names that might make us sick to hear. I think for me at least, I have a voyeur's interest in who did what and more importantly to me, how they did it and at what expense/gain. The sport is sick and sunlight is the best disinfectant.

He's like a pinata at a 6 year old's birthday party. There have been a lot of whacks that missed, and now there have been a few solid hits and some candy has dribbled out, but look out, all the 6 and 7 year olds have had their fun trying to whack at it and missing for the most part and now comes an oversized 11 year old who has been sitting on the sidelines and he's swinging an aluminum bat like Albert Pujols instead of a broomstick. And he can see enough through the blindfold and knows exactly where the target is. The mom's are clearing the little kids away so no one gets hit by a candy-missile.
 
Jun 13, 2010
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bobs *** said:
I'll bet he knows 'where tons of bodies are buried'. Wouldn't that be a treasure trove of names we already knew and names that might make us sick to hear. I think for me at least, I have a voyeur's interest in who did what and more importantly to me, how they did it and at what expense/gain. The sport is sick and sunlight is the best disinfectant.

He's like a pinata at a 6 year old's birthday party. There have been a lot of whacks that missed, and now there have been a few solid hits and some candy has dribbled out, but look out, all the 6 and 7 year olds have had their fun trying to whack at it and missing for the most part and now comes an oversized 11 year old who has been sitting on the sidelines and he's swinging an aluminum bat like Albert Pujols instead of a broomstick. And he can see enough through the blindfold and knows exactly where the target is. The mom's are clearing the little kids away so no one gets hit by a candy-missile.

BN,

LAUGHED my *** of reading that post; but so true. It will be interesting to see who rats out who; and who gets sacrificed for the greater good if The Cause.
 
Jan 5, 2010
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Again, playing the Devils Advocate, I think you have to put all of this in perspective. To most people outside the cycling community, this whole thing stinks like a personal vendetta. The general population couldn’t care less about this. What, if anything, are people ticked off about? Is it that these guys took PEDs and won or they took PEDs won and never failed a drug test? There is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that yes, they indeed took PEDs. But, let’s not lose sight of the facts. The governing body did not catch them because they were either duplicitous or inept, so their records stand.

You can come at them from a different angle like you alluded to, namely tax evasion, but don’t you think that seems a bit punitive? I mean if you are accused of one thing and the evidence isn’t there to convict you, should someone have the authority to come at you with something completely unrelated; with the sole intent that a conviction, any conviction, on any charge is acceptable? Should we give policemen the authority to pull your tax returns if they don’t have enough evidence to convict you on that speeding ticket? As the saying goes, “absolute power corrupts absolutely.” I hope this “investigation” doesn’t end up in the gutter, but I suspect it is inevitable that it will. I wish for once someone on either side would put their ego aside and seek the moral high ground. I don’t think you will see the scenario play out like Richard Virenque and Willy Voet, it will probably be more like Johnny Cochran and O.J. Simpson. That’s my thought of the day.
 
May 23, 2010
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miloman said:
Again, playing the Devils Advocate, I think you have to put all of this in perspective. To most people outside the cycling community, this whole thing stinks like a personal vendetta. The general population couldn’t care less about this. What, if anything, are people ticked off about? Is it that these guys took PEDs and won or they took PEDs won and never failed a drug test? There is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that yes, they indeed took PEDs. But, let’s not lose sight of the facts. The governing body did not catch them because they were either duplicitous or inept, so their records stand.

You can come at them from a different angle like you alluded to, namely tax evasion, but don’t you think that seems a bit punitive? I mean if you are accused of one thing and the evidence isn’t there to convict you, should someone have the authority to come at you with something completely unrelated; with the sole intent that a conviction, any conviction, on any charge is acceptable? Should we give policemen the authority to pull your tax returns if they don’t have enough evidence to convict you on that speeding ticket? As the saying goes, “absolute power corrupts absolutely.” I hope this “investigation” doesn’t end up in the gutter, but I suspect it is inevitable that it will. I wish for once someone on either side would put their ego aside and seek the moral high ground. I don’t think you will see the scenario play out like Richard Virenque and Willy Voet, it will probably be more like Johnny Cochran and O.J. Simpson. That’s my thought of the day.

You're purposely ignoring several key points:

1. There's good reason to believe that Armstrong was never caught by the doping police (UCI) due to corruption and collusion. Most people outside of the cycling community do not know this.

2. If the investigation finds that federal laws were broken, then the dopers were not just guilty of sporting regulations. This is not a retrial of a cycling race, Armstrong is likely to keep his TdF trophies. He may just lose some money or freedom - in worst case both.

3. If those guilty of federal crimes get exposed by a fellow doper, you can still only blame the dopers who broke the laws. Motivation may have been revenge, but let's not start counting who's taken more acts of revenge in his lifetime.

4. What's the moral high ground here? Which side has morality on their side? That, my friend, doesn't come to play here - legal language rules for once and has provisions to protect both parties.

5. We can use your quote "absolute power corrupts absolutely" to describe the events in pro cycling prior to this past spring. Most welcome the change since then.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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miloman said:
To most people outside the cycling community, this whole thing stinks like a personal vendetta.
People outside cycling believe this is a personal vendetta because they believe everything LA says. But LA is a chronic liar.

miloman said:
The governing body did not catch them because they were either duplicitous or inept . . .
One of the reasons that many of us who are into cycling believe the investigation is important is that the governing bodies are duplicitous/inept/bought off/generally corrupt. Getting to the root of what went on with Tailwind/Postal/LA and his financiers/etc has the potential to shed a lot of disinfecting sunlight on a broken system.

miloman said:
You can come at them from a different angle like you alluded to, namely tax evasion, but don’t you think that seems a bit punitive? I wish for once someone on either side would put their ego aside and seek the moral high ground.
However, neither of the two separate but potentially related investigations is about "Did LA dope?" per se. Nor are they about "LA is a big bad liar" or USAC/UCI/etc are miserably corrupt. Nor are they about moral high ground. They are about possible illegal and fraudulent actions.

The first is the Novitsky investigation, which apparently started with Michael Ball and Rock Racing after the former landlord of former Rock rider Kayle Leogrande found a bunch of PED paraphernalia in Legorande's empty apartment. When the FLandis emails were leaked (not by Flandis himself BTW, despite the LA camp claiming they were - see "Personal Vendetta" above), Novitsky began to investigate those claims as well, presumably since he was already investigating drugs in cycling. I don't know that anyone knows for sure what exactly Novitsky is driving toward, although it would seem that he is seeking to uncover widespread distribution of PEDs. Since the "D" in PED stands for drugs, PEDs are regulated by the FDA. If they are being distributed under the table, then their distributors are obviously avoiding FDA regulation. So the FDA investigator is investigating. Under the table also implies tax evasion, so Dirk is the right man for the job since he's a former IRS investigator as well. Federal investigators get paid out of federal coffers (i.e., tax dollars) to investigate potential criminal behavior.

The other is a civil matter, initiated by Flandis' whistelblower lawsuit, a concept that exists to encourage citizens to nudge the government into action when citizens know that the government has been defrauded. Landis' observation of organized doping at Postal is tantamount to the observation of Postal defrauding the USPS to the potential tune of ~30 million bucks. The contract between the two parties states very clearly "Thou shalt not dope." If the arm of the gov't that pursues whistleblower lawsuits finds enough corroborating evidence to support FLandis' claims, then they may decide to seek compensation from Postal and its business affiliates (Tailwind et al). If the feds pursue this case, it will be to recover federal monies. And Flandis will only receive a cut of whatever $$ (if any) the feds might recover from suing Postal/Tailwind & Co.

Sorry to be so long-winded but your devil's advocacy so far is overly-broad and seems based on a tenuous grasp of all of the facts.
 
powerste said:
"Personal Vendetta"

Personal vendetta comes up a lot in these discussions. As does Landis being “bitter”. Of course Floyd has a personal vendetta. Of course he’s bitter. He’s life has been totally destroyed by Armstrong. Landis kept his mouth shut for 4 years. He also helped Armstrong win those Tour’s by doping with him. Remember stage 17 2004 Tour? Landis rode on the front for 3 mountain passes. Landis still kept his mouth shut even when he lost his job, his wife, his father in-law and almost his life. So when it came to payback time from Armstrong to hire him on the team what did Lance do? Not hire him! Of course Floyd is bitter and has a personal vendetta. I would. Therefore the motivation to come clean was to cleans his own soul and start to feel better about himself. By doing so he had no problems in dropping Armstrong in it because he dropped Floyd in to it long ago and used him for all he was worth and spat him when he wasn’t needed anymore. Armstrong got all he deserved. I’d turn this on its head and say if there was a personal vendetta out there it would be Armstrong on Floyd long before Landis went nuclear. Who would treat someone like that?
 
Jun 15, 2009
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thehog said:
Personal vendetta comes up a lot in these discussions. As does Landis being “bitter”. Of course Floyd has a personal vendetta. Of course he’s bitter. He’s life has been totally destroyed by Armstrong. Landis kept his mouth shut for 4 years. He also helped Armstrong win those Tour’s by doping with him. Remember stage 17 2004 Tour? Landis rode on the front for 3 mountain passes. Landis still kept his mouth shut even when he lost his job, his wife, his father in-law and almost his life. So when it came to payback time from Armstrong to hire him on the team what did Lance do? Not hire him! Of course Floyd is bitter and has a personal vendetta. I would. Therefore the motivation to come clean was to cleans his own soul and start to feel better about himself. By doing so he had no problems in dropping Armstrong in it because he dropped Floyd in to it long ago and used him for all he was worth and spat him when he wasn’t needed anymore. Armstrong got all he deserved. I’d turn this on its head and say if there was a personal vendetta out there it would be Armstrong on Floyd long before Landis went nuclear. Who would treat someone like that?

And plenty more examples abound . . .

LA's personal vendetta against everyone who isn't a complete sycophant with no spine of his/her own is what's gonna leave the biggest bite marks in his a$$ when people testify under oath in the course of the ongoing investigations.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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thehog said:
Personal vendetta comes up a lot in these discussions. As does Landis being “bitter”. Of course Floyd has a personal vendetta. Of course he’s bitter. He’s life has been totally destroyed by Armstrong. Landis kept his mouth shut for 4 years. He also helped Armstrong win those Tour’s by doping with him. Remember stage 17 2004 Tour? Landis rode on the front for 3 mountain passes. Landis still kept his mouth shut even when he lost his job, his wife, his father in-law and almost his life. So when it came to payback time from Armstrong to hire him on the team what did Lance do? Not hire him! Of course Floyd is bitter and has a personal vendetta. I would. Therefore the motivation to come clean was to cleans his own soul and start to feel better about himself. By doing so he had no problems in dropping Armstrong in it because he dropped Floyd in to it long ago and used him for all he was worth and spat him when he wasn’t needed anymore. Armstrong got all he deserved. I’d turn this on its head and say if there was a personal vendetta out there it would be Armstrong on Floyd long before Landis went nuclear. Who would treat someone like that?

Your post says it all. Landis ruined Landis not Lance. Floyd asked for a job..Lance said no. What other option does Landis have to make money? Can't race. Can't do color for CBS,NBC,VS, Velonews or anybody else.Landis had one option. Take something he sees as a dirty secret and try and get paid with the kiss and tell technique. If he doesn't get paid he will just be a soiled,bad hip has been. Even larry King told him there was no current interest in his story..maybe Maury or Dr. Laura will give him a couple hundred. his motivation was not a clean soul but an empty wallet. The whole thing goes off the cliff when Lance won't let Floyd race with the Pharmstrongshack. Soon he will find god like the guys on death row. And the answer to the question who would treat a person like that?..1 guy has a multi-million dollar enterprise and the other guy is in a cabin off of I-10 with a bum hip. After the mud bath no US cycling mags will let Landis even subscribe
 
Mar 8, 2010
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It would be very easy to create a list out of people here in this forum, who would have screamed the loudest if Lance had really hired Floydie for RS. :rolleyes:
 
Mar 18, 2009
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I'm reminded of what happened the last time Landis threatened someone with their 'dirty secret' - Lemond took the stand, was clear about what the dirty secret (childhood abuse) was. He confronted it head on and defused it.

If Armstrong admitted he'd be a doper, 2 year ban, a big 'so what, they all did it' from most. But Armstrong is running the very real risk of being remembered not as a 'so what' doper but as a convicted liar - and for most people that smells bad, worse than a little bit of cheating that everyone else was doing.

Apologies for not remembering where I read the following opinion (here or elsewhere) but I concur that if this leads to a total overhaul of the way the sport is run from the highest level downwards then this investigation will be totally justified
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Cobblestoned said:
It would be very easy to create a list out of people here in this forum, who would have screamed the loudest if Lance had really hired Floydie for RS. :rolleyes:

Knowing what we now know, I sure hope a lot of people would have screamed!

But then again, no one would have known that FL was on the verge of coming clean before deciding to get back on the program at RS instead. Given that confessing seems to have lifted quite a weight off of Floyd's shoulders, I hate to think what his mental state would have been had he just ridden along post-suspension like so many other dopers.
 
fatandfast said:
Your post says it all. Landis ruined Landis not Lance. Floyd asked for a job..Lance said no. What other option does Landis have to make money? Can't race. Can't do color for CBS,NBC,VS, Velonews or anybody else.Landis had one option. Take something he sees as a dirty secret and try and get paid with the kiss and tell technique. If he doesn't get paid he will just be a soiled,bad hip has been. Even larry King told him there was no current interest in his story..maybe Maury or Dr. Laura will give him a couple hundred. his motivation was not a clean soul but an empty wallet. The whole thing goes off the cliff when Lance won't let Floyd race with the Pharmstrongshack. Soon he will find god like the guys on death row. And the answer to the question who would treat a person like that?..1 guy has a multi-million dollar enterprise and the other guy is in a cabin off of I-10 with a bum hip. After the mud bath no US cycling mags will let Landis even subscribe

So making a comeback and continuing to dope and being paid large appearances fees under the guise of “cancer awareness” is acceptable? Because one generates 1 million dollars per race appearance the other has to race in a t-shirt at a local crit it makes the million dollar man better? So based on that theory if Landis is telling the truth and sues Armstrong and makes a million he’s now better? And the end of the day the kings and queens and pawns all end up in the same box. I bet I know who will feel better about them selves when that times comes. Your logic is flawed. You're placing value on the person by the money they have not by the truth they’re telling. Think about it.
 
Mar 8, 2010
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powerste said:
Knowing what we now know, I sure hope a lot of people would have screamed!

But then again, no one would have known that FL was on the verge of coming clean before deciding to get back on the program at RS instead. Given that confessing seems to have lifted quite a weight off of Floyd's shoulders, I hate to think what his mental state would have been had he just ridden along post-suspension like so many other dopers.

Ohhh, that sounds so romantic. Are you a girl ?

Floyd is loved so much (since May). :D
 
powerste said:
Knowing what we now know, I sure hope a lot of people would have screamed!

But then again, no one would have known that FL was on the verge of coming clean before deciding to get back on the program at RS instead. Given that confessing seems to have lifted quite a weight off of Floyd's shoulders, I hate to think what his mental state would have been had he just ridden along post-suspension like so many other dopers.

This needs its own thread but to be honest I think if RS hired Floyd they could have spun it nicely. Armstrong had previously defended Floyd in the press I don’t think there would have been a massive publicity fall out over hiring him. I’m not sure Floyd could have coped with not coming clean but I think it could have been done and saved Armstrong the mess he’s in now. I’m personally grateful for what Landis is doing now. Provides a lot of hope to people knowing that no matter how many ills you may have created in the past you can always seek retribution through the truth. Taken an awful lot of guts to do what he’s doing. I’m not sure many people could have done the same. I know for one Armstrong is a lot weaker than Floyd. Lance is still having trouble with the truth. Funny how many see Armstrong as an inspiration where as I see it the other way around.
 
Jan 5, 2010
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A lot of great post! But I still can’t understand why so many need/want an FDA investigator to clean house, when it should be the responsibility of the UCI and WADA. What is it about us Americans that leads us to believe that we always know what’s right and in the best interest of others? We are such an ethnocentric lot!

The UCI is based in Europe, its charter – Europe; most of the races it sanctions are held outside of the US. The team in question was headquartered in Europe, Spain I believe, and from all that I read, the drugs were purchased, transfused or injected outside of US jurisdiction. It is clearly someone else’s problem. As far as any paper trail to be followed implicating Tailwind Sports to any dubious activity; don’t you think they had a shredding party months ago. I doubt there is anything left. It’s more or less going to come down to a “he said, she said” fight and the money always wins in those. I am sorry Floyd, I’m not sure if your motives were sincere, I like to think the best of people, so I will assume they were, but I am afraid you are going to get the shaft yet again. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am.
 
May 23, 2010
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powerste said:
And plenty more examples abound . . .

LA's personal vendetta against everyone who isn't a complete sycophant with no spine of his/her own is what's gonna leave the biggest bite marks in his a$$ when people testify under oath in the course of the ongoing investigations.

Very true. The list of reasons people have stayed quiet in the past:

1. Bribery / donations. We know of payment(s) to UCI, donation to the hospital not to remember the "hospital room incident", but there are likely many other such cases where money or favors exchanged hands to keep things quiet.

2. Threats / intimidation. Aggressive legal action, threat to get 10 to say Lemond took EPO, chasing Simeoni, bad-mouthing Betsy, etc. Probably just the visbile tip of the iceberg of bad behavior.

3. Employment security. It's obvious Stephanie McIlvaine of Oakley chose employment over truth. US Cycling heads, appointed by Lance's supporters knew what to do. Riders, team support personnel wishing to stay in pro cycling knew they better not speak up.

4. And the most amazing reason of all: feeling that Lance was "good for cycling", that he brought money and attention for everyone to share. Hurting him would be like hurting yourself. Spectacle was what people wanted. Lots of folks were complicit of this - think Sherwan & Ligget.

Tools #1-3 are gone, using them now would be an "obsruction of justice". #4 is still out there, but as more details come up, this too will change.

Thanks to the federal scrutiny, people have few reasons not to tell the truth, especially if required to do so. And then there's the flip side - many want the bully gone and punished. He's no longer the undisputed king of the hill.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Cobblestoned said:
Ohhh, that sounds so romantic.
Nothing romantic about it. Just observing FL's words and actions, both of which exhibit considerable relief at the confession.

Cobblestoned said:
Are you a girl ?
No. Should I be in order to respond to your posts?

Cobblestoned said:
Floyd is loved so much (since May). :D
One reason people respond positively to Floyd is our appreciation of the guts it took for him to say that he doped and lied about it. I also applaud his effort to break the omerta. Had he gone "back to work" at RS, neither of those things would have happened. And again, based on observing his own words since speaking out, I think it's safe to say that he's better off the way things turned out.
 
miloman said:
A lot of great post! But I still can’t understand why so many need/want an FDA investigator to clean house, when it should be the responsibility of the UCI and WADA. What is it about us Americans that leads us to believe that we always know what’s right and in the best interest of others? We are such an ethnocentric lot!

The UCI is based in Europe, its charter – Europe; most of the races it sanctions are held outside of the US. The team in question was headquartered in Europe, Spain I believe, and from all that I read, the drugs were purchased, transfused or injected outside of US jurisdiction. It is clearly someone else’s problem. As far as any paper trail to be followed implicating Tailwind Sports to any dubious activity; don’t you think they had a shredding party months ago. I doubt there is anything left. It’s more or less going to come down to a “he said, she said” fight and the money always wins in those. I am sorry Floyd, I’m not sure if your motives were sincere, I like to think the best of people, so I will assume they were, but I am afraid you are going to get the shaft yet again. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am.

You’re right. What does the FDA have to do with a doping in cycling. I would agree with you - nothing. Its for the UCI/WADA or the sporting boding to test for those substances and ban accordingly, However the FDA is not looking to apply sporting sanctions to the riders in the case. Or to perform the job of the UCI or WADA. Its not the act of doping they are investigating. Similar to narcotic use. The Feds are not concerned with the users at street level. That’s a local police issue. What concerns them is the importation, the trafficking, the fraud, the tax evasions of the narcotics. I can assure you that if what Floyd saying is true then Lance and Bruyneel would have to fund the systematic doping in some way. They wouldn’t have gone to the local pharmacy and purchased the products and kept all their receipts and passed it off as expenses. That would have had to set up a network throughout Europe. Purchased the products illegally and arranged for doctors etc. to perform the transfusions and so on. By means of doping they would have set up a network which created the illegal activity. Going one step further if the dope was purchased with federal money to set up a network which funds people to use dope which could in turn be accessed by children yes I would want my government to intervene. Same again as with narcotics. If you let this stuff go and say the guy is only selling a few ounces in the local playground what’s the harm? everyone has tried drugs before. But that small guy soon becomes the middle guy and then he becomes the big guy and then all of sudden you have a very big problem on your hands – you have an extensive drug network which can be accessed by all. That’s not good. I don’t think this will come down to “he said, she said”. The money will show the trail. The case will not be ruled by the evidence Floyd gives. It will be the paper trail that is left. From what I read of Floyd accounts Armstrong,/Bruyneel were fairly open with the doping program,. I mean the entire team was going into hotel rooms and dope. The entire team on a bus doped. Armstrong would hand Landis the drugs in front of his wife in the kitchen of his house! I mean Lance had a refrigerator in his closet! It doesn’t sound to me they would have covered there tracks very well.
 
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