Armstrong Lies

[Mellow Velo]

I'm surprised, that with all this talk of 20% improvement in Armstrong's ITTing, over a numbe of years, no one has questioned how he went,
From this:
1998 Paris-Nice Stage 1
abandoned - Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal

Unable to hold on in the peloton and and on the point of giving up the sport.

To This:
1998 Vuelta Final GC.
1. Abraham Olano Manzano (Spa) Banesto 93.44.08
2. Fernando Escartin (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 1.23
3. José Maria Jiminez Sastre (Spa) Banesto 2.12
4. Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal 2.18

In just 6 months, spent mostly back in the US.
Hard to put that into percentages, I'd say.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm surprised, that with all this talk of 20% improvement in Armstrong's ITTing, over a numbe of years, no one has questioned how he went,
From this:
1998 Paris-Nice Stage 1
abandoned - Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal

Unable to hold on in the peloton and and on the point of giving up the sport.

To This:
1998 Vuelta Final GC.
1. Abraham Olano Manzano (Spa) Banesto 93.44.08
2. Fernando Escartin (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 1.23
3. José Maria Jiminez Sastre (Spa) Banesto 2.12
4. Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal 2.18

In just 6 months, spent mostly back in the US.
Hard to put that into percentages, I'd say.

Actually I give Lance a 'bye' on his '98 Paris Nice performance. It was more psychological rather than physical. He rode the Ruta de Sol just before and rode really well there -IIRC 14th overall. If you see his prologue performance in P-N it was solid - not extraordinary but very good for the time of year.

I just think he snapped - which after having cancer and doing his comeback was understandable.

 

[flicker]

Alien Blood

Lance is training in Tucson. The reason is that the Alien blood that he needs to win tour is being paracuted down from an XB170 which is based in Area 51.

The blood was formerly paracuted into Roswell AFB New Mexico.however the cosy beehive has entreanched camaras in the landing zone. Therefore the parachuting is being done on the San Carlos Apache Reservation(east of Pima)a place David Walsh has been unable to penetrate.

Word has it that the Alein blood rises its Crit only during extreme exsertion therefore is undetectable during doping test and at control.

A similar Alien blood was shared with Fausto Coppi and Eddy Merckx. At that time V-2 rockets were used in the delivery systems.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh what a surprise, BPC trying to make stuff up again. YOU (BPC) claimed that Contador "broke an all-time power record" at the TDF this year. I called BS on your claim because it's not supported by facts. Yes his VAM calculation shows that he flew. But we do not have his SRM to know what his power output was.
And I'll repeat what I said before: it does not make sense to use VAM to accuse or exonerate someone of doping; there are too many variables.

Which was precisely my point in this thread:

Originally Posted by Great White
Did they all handover their power tap information? Or was it worked out using the same method that says Contador produced more power known to man on the Verbier?

I don't know whether its true about Contador, but that demonstrates how unreliable this process is without hard info. Take all power estimates with a pinch of salt.

Thanks for backing me up against the other guys.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Having read the article on a number of occasions I can't agree with your characterisation of the 6.68 W/kg as "very conservative". In fact it's an estimate that is based upon a number of assumptions which are pretty clearly stated. At least some factors which could easily drag the number down are not included due to an absence of data. This is clearly stated. Any sensible scientist would see this as having fun with the numbers which gives a rough idea of what is going on. No conclusions can or should be drawn.

Let's make it really simple. Use the most conservative value of 1858 m/hr as a climbing rate. A simple conversion tells us that this equals (1858 m/hr)(9.8 m/s^2)/(3600 s/hr) = 5.06 W/kg. That's what it would take if he were lifting his mass straight up in the air at that rate with no other energy losses.

We also know that he climbed the 8.7 km in about 22 min, which gives an average of ~25 km/hr. To ride at 25 km/hr takes roughly 1.5 W/kg (Analytical Cycling as well as a few other sources - you can even calculate it yourself).

Add the two together and you get ~6.6 W/kg.

I'm a reasonable scientist having fun with numbers, and I would believe that this value is very close to the actual. And it is a very large number.

John Swanson

 

[Polish]

Sprocket1 is no longer here

Eva Maria is gone too - the dudette that started this thread btw

AC was born December 6 1982. He won his first Tour in July 2007 at the age of 24.

What is your point? Alberto finished 40th or so when riding for Saiz/Fuentes in the 2005 TdF. The fact that Alberto won clean riding for Bruyneel speaks volumes for the Tactical Genius of Johan.

And like Alberto, Lance won his very first TdF riding for Bruyneel. At age 27, same age as Big Mig when he won the first of his 5 TdF's by the way.

Actovegin was indeed banned under the "method" rule. EPO was banned in the same manner even prior to it being restricted by name. The IOC clarified the ban 5 months after USPS was found dumping used bags of it.

It WAS legal when USPS used it for RECOVERY purposes. Legal in France.
Sure, it was made an illegal "PED" after it was discovered in the trash - where it belonged. No reason to shred it or burn it or bury it. Legal garbage.

BTW, if USPS were using legal iron shots for recovery instead of legal Actovegin for recovery - iron shots would have been reclassified as PEDS by the witchhunters who were first taking shape back then. lol.

The $500,000 "Donation" was given in October 1999.

Sure, like Lance could afford to pay a half million buck Bribe in 1999. What was his salary at Postal - $60K? Total team budget was what three million?

Silly Myths busted...."Lance too old to win the Tour"...."Lance cheated using Actovegan as a PED"...."Lance bribed the UCI $500,000 in 1999"...

 

[131313]

Let's make it really simple. Use the most conservative value of 1858 m/hr as a climbing rate. A simple conversion tells us that this equals (1858 m/hr)(9.8 m/s^2)/(3600 s/hr) = 5.06 W/kg. That's what it would take if he were lifting his mass straight up in the air at that rate with no other energy losses.

We also know that he climbed the 8.7 km in about 22 min, which gives an average of ~25 km/hr. To ride at 25 km/hr takes roughly 1.5 W/kg (Analytical Cycling as well as a few other sources - you can even calculate it yourself).

Add the two together and you get ~6.6 W/kg.

I'm a reasonable scientist having fun with numbers, and I would believe that this value is very close to the actual. And it is a very large number.

John Swanson

no disrespect meant, but garbage in, garbage out. 1.5 w/kg assumes a drag of a rider not sheltered from the wind, and no tailwind. As I said, it's a lot of handwaving and nothing more.

Assume an average tailwind a 8 m/s and a rider drag of 1.8 for the portion of the climb he was sitting in, and 2.8 for the part he wasn't. It's just math, so I imagine you'll come up with similar numbers. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying there's not enough information out there to reach anything resembling a conclusion.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

no disrespect meant, but garbage in, garbage out. 1.5 w/kg assumes a drag of a rider not sheltered from the wind, and no tailwind. As I said, it's a lot of handwaving and nothing more.

Assume an average tailwind a 8 m/s and a rider drag of 1.8 for the portion of the climb he was sitting in, and 2.8 for the part he wasn't. It's just math, so I imagine you'll come up with similar numbers. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying there's not enough information out there to reach anything resembling a conclusion.

<shrug> I'm not sure how you could justify an 8 m/s tailwind and a 40% reduction in drag. But whatever.

John Swanson

 

[Race Radio]

What is your point? Alberto finished 40th or so when riding for Saiz/Fuentes in the 2005 TdF. The fact that Alberto won clean riding for Bruyneel speaks volumes for the Tactical Genius of Johan.

And like Alberto, Lance won his very first TdF riding for Bruyneel. At age 27, same age as Big Mig when he won the first of his 5 TdF's by the way.

It WAS legal when USPS used it for RECOVERY purposes. Legal in France.
Sure, it was made an illegal "PED" after it was discovered in the trash - where it belonged. No reason to shred it or burn it or bury it. Legal garbage.

BTW, if USPS were using legal iron shots for recovery instead of legal Actovegin for recovery - iron shots would have been reclassified as PEDS by the witchhunters who were first taking shape back then. lol.



Sure, like Lance could afford to pay a half million buck Bribe in 1999. What was his salary at Postal - $60K? Total team budget was what three million?

Silly Myths busted...."Lance too old to win the Tour"...."Lance cheated using Actovegan as a PED"...."Lance bribed the UCI $500,000 in 1999"...

So many wrong things here.

Armstrong was a multi millionaire in 1999. His incentive laden contracts paid off big when he won the Tour. His salary at Postal was 200,000 base but he more then tripled that with bonuses. He also received a $1,000,000 bonus for winning the Tour, plus $450,000 in prize money (Given to some of the team). Nike, Oakley, Giro, and a bunch of pharmaceutical companies all paid large bonuses for winning the Tour that year.

Actovign was NOT authorized for "recovery" purposes, or at least what is commonly know as "recovery" it was allowed to be used for road rash and the mechanic's diabetes, that is it. Considering the large number of bags and syringes (160) I think we can all agree this is not what it was used for.

After the 84 blood doping issue the IOC banned certain "Methods". This would insure that if a new drug came along that even if the name did not appear on the list the method would be banned. THG, CERA, EPO all were banned by this clause, even if the IOC did not yet have them on the list.

You make no sense with your ramble about The Hog/AC/Lance. You made the comparison of Armstrong and AC at the same period in their career. I showed how AC had shown promise as a GT winner at an early age....Armstrong showed none.

 

[VeloCity]

Sure, like Lance could afford to pay a half million buck Bribe in 1999. What was his salary at Postal - $60K?

Well, it's true that the endorsement deals prior to the '99 Tour win was with small companies like Nike and Oakley and I've heard they don't pay very well.

 

[131313]

<shrug> I'm not sure how you could justify an 8 m/s tailwind and a 40% reduction in drag. But whatever.

John Swanson

I can justify an 8 m/s tailwind because I've ridden up the climb. Do you think a 40% reduction in drag is unreasonable for a rider sitting in a pack of riders versus a rider standing solo? I don't, but if you believe otherwise, then throw up some other assumptions.

What are you estimating his drag to be, and what are you using for effective wind on rider?

 

[fatandfast]

RR your earlier posts have some spill about Eddie B saying that Lance was thought to be a possible GT winner. But Dr.Ferrari says he didn't feel Lance had it at that time. So Ferrari is a bad Dr. but a good talent scout ? Cycling history says Eddie knows a little about cycling. Who could argue that finding needles and drugs that have no"official,authorized use" for an elite bike racer looks fishy but it's been years and the constant deduction that needles = guilt is simply unproven. Now with even more well funded organizations giving up the drug scandal business it seems that civil courts and blogs are the only place Lance will officially be a looser. All the huge windfalls of cash and fame that you list are due to a talented racer and a storybook cancer survival story. You can't have one without the other. If Alberto does go on to win 8 tours he will still not have the draw of the one balled doper you detest. There is nobody on the world stage that can topple King Lance. Hate Armstrong is one thing but come on with the Dr.Ferrari already.

 

[Race Radio]

RR your earlier posts have some spill about Eddie B saying that Lance was thought to be a possible GT winner. But Dr.Ferrari says he didn't feel Lance had it at that time. So Ferrari is a bad Dr. but a good talent scout ? Cycling history says Eddie knows a little about cycling. Who could argue that finding needles and drugs that have no"official,authorized use" for an elite bike racer looks fishy but it's been years and the constant deduction that needles = guilt is simply unproven. Now with even more well funded organizations giving up the drug scandal business it seems that civil courts and blogs are the only place Lance will officially be a looser. All the huge windfalls of cash and fame that you list are due to a talented racer and a storybook cancer survival story. You can't have one without the other. If Alberto does go on to win 8 tours he will still not have the draw of the one balled doper you detest. There is nobody on the world stage that can topple King Lance. Hate Armstrong is one thing but come on with the Dr.Ferrari already.

I do not mean to be a jerk but it is very hard to understand your writing, I will try to respond.

When Eddie B was running the program at US cycling he knew a bit about promotion. He played up Armstrong has his discovery. When Carmichael became the man then Eddie changed his tune. Ferrari at first turned down Armstrong, until Merckx called Ferrari.

I do not hate Armstrong. If you read my post I have far more contempt for the clueless groupies who suspend rational thought when it comes to their hero.

Looking at the Actovigen case in retrospect it makes it some much easier to see that Armstrong, and others, were doping. Not only have multiple teams and riders (Rumsas, Frigo, Kelme) be caught with Actovigen but Manzano has also told us how it was used. A retest of USPS urine samples from that Tour showed they were "Too Clean" with no EPO and super low hormone levels. We now know that the simple way to beat an EPO test is with a little detergent under your nails. **** on it and it erases all EPO, synthetic and natural, from your sample. We also know from the Di Lucca case how dopers can show such abnormal hormone profiles. Actovigen was not the only product found. Insulin was as well....or course this is now also banned.

It is hard to look at the evidence and not come to the conclusion that Armstrong is a doper.

 

[woodburn]

So many wrong things here.

Armstrong was a multi millionaire in 1999. His incentive laden contracts paid off big when he won the Tour. His salary at Postal was 200,000 base but he more then tripled that with bonuses. He also received a $1,000,000 bonus for winning the Tour, plus $450,000 in prize money (Given to some of the team). Nike, Oakley, Giro, and a bunch of pharmaceutical companies all paid large bonuses for winning the Tour that year.

Actovign was NOT authorized for "recovery" purposes, or at least what is commonly know as "recovery" it was allowed to be used for road rash and the mechanic's diabetes, that is it. Considering the large number of bags and syringes (160) I think we can all agree this is not what it was used for.

After the 84 blood doping issue the IOC banned certain "Methods". This would insure that if a new drug came along that even if the name did not appear on the list the method would be banned. THG, CERA, EPO all were banned by this clause, even if the IOC did not yet have them on the list.

You make no sense with your ramble about The Hog/AC/Lance. You made the comparison of Armstrong and AC at the same period in their career. I showed how AC had shown promise as a GT winner at an early age....Armstrong showed none.

Also factor into equation that Contador had a serious head injury that cost him significant time at the age of 22 and almost ended his career.

 

[flicker]

Contador

I do feel Contador could win 8 tours.
Do you think that Lance might be trying to pad the tour victories.

I am convinced by the cyclingnews forum now that Lance was doped to the gills in the 1999 Tour, therefore only 6 tour victories. Its true I have a TREK and it says right on the frame 6 TOUR de FRANCE victories.

That could only be Lance. Greg LeMond only rode LeMond frames during his string of 3 wins right.

 

[fatandfast]

Mr. Radio point taken about my writing as well as many substances used and abused throughout the last @15 years. All the terms for Armstrong fans lean toward them being undereducated about bicycle racing. I think doping was a part of many a successful programs not only the ones who have tangled with the law and controlling federations. Eddie B had a couple of riders that came up positive for caffine, and latter were found to have put something in their body through unconventional means. They rode with Lance at Subaru, Lance may have been exposed to some of the top tricky methods of the day from both the west and eastern block. Armstrong has nothing to gain from the admission of guilt and in fact could damage cycling and his charities if he did admit to unsportsmanlike conduct during his most winning years on the bike. I am certainly not saying he is innocent of all things accused but the cost of conviction may be grave to racing in general .

 

[flicker]

Yes fat and fast it is true Lance admitting guilt will bomb bicycle racing back to the stone age. But we Lance haters like watching amatuer cyclists toolin around in abandoned military bases. Because if Lance gets caught or admits doping we will be watching a few races out in the boonies. I won't be there myself.

 

[BikeCentric]

Mr. Radio point taken about my writing as well as many substances used and abused throughout the last @15 years. All the terms for Armstrong fans lean toward them being undereducated about bicycle racing. I think doping was a part of many a successful programs not only the ones who have tangled with the law and controlling federations. Eddie B had a couple of riders that came up positive for caffine, and latter were found to have put something in their body through unconventional means. They rode with Lance at Subaru, Lance may have been exposed to some of the top tricky methods of the day from both the west and eastern block. Armstrong has nothing to gain from the admission of guilt and in fact could damage cycling and his charities if he did admit to unsportsmanlike conduct during his most winning years on the bike. I am certainly not saying he is innocent of all things accused but the cost of conviction may be grave to racing in general .

You do know that Eddie B. brought autologous blood doping to the US National Olympic Team and it was used at the '84 Olympics, right? It was not illegal at the time. Go ahead and search for the web for it, there are many articles in mainstream US sports publications; I'm not going to Google it for you because I'm busy today. There was a large USA Cycling internal investigation among others to determine what went down; Eddie B. has admitted that he oversaw the practice of blood doping on that team.

 

[BikeCentric]

Yes fat and fast it is true Lance admitting guilt will bomb bicycle racing back to the stone age. But we Lance haters like watching amatuer cyclists toolin around in abandoned military bases. Because if Lance gets caught or admits doping we will be watching a few races out in the boonies. I won't be there myself.

Again you know not what you speak of. US Domestic "pro" cycling is already in the stone age. The Pros here race on the same courses that the amateurs do in 97% of races and have hardly any more turn-out than the amateurs do. Most of them aren't even getting paid; if they're lucky they get all their equipment covered and that's it.

But whether Armstrong is busted or not Europe will just keep trucking along with pro cycling as they have for over 100 years. Americans don't know jack about this sport for the most part and you're yet another example of that.

 

[flicker]

Thank you bike centric

You do know that Eddie B. brought autologous blood doping to the US National Olympic Team and it was used at the '84 Olympics, right? It was not illegal at the time.

This is why I am so against the Lance accusors.

It is hypocritical to accuse Lance without investigating the previous programs. I am not sure who brought in Eddie B. from POLAND BUT i CAN TELL YOU Eddie knew the tricks and he shared them with the US riders.

I can name riders on his program and riders before his program on steroids.

So until the Lance bashers name those names they can take a hike. Because they are hypocrits. Same with the German media" oh to much doping in the tour we cannot televise it." When the Eastern Block were doped to the gills for long time....what 30 years. Please include Germany(West and East)

 

[fatandfast]

Yes fat and fast it is true Lance admitting guilt will bomb bicycle racing back to the stone age. But we Lance haters like watching amatuer cyclists toolin around in abandoned military bases. Because if Lance gets caught or admits doping we will be watching a few races out in the boonies. I won't be there myself.

Yo flick What's wrong with military base bike races? Better than Ziggart. El Toro, Miramar and Camp Pendelton all had good outings. 1 of the hardest races around is Floyd Bennett in NYC, an old air strip that is ...rugged,dirty with little crosswind. On a serious note. With your eyes open or closed in a dream state do you think pushing 40 Armstrong will juice to get another big result ? If he has not been pinched by now it's all just a formality. His knees could go out and he will be riding around in a team car handing out water bottles to Phinney's kid. He is not going to get caught with any surgical supplies from this point forward. Is proof that Lance is a villain so critical to bike racing's history ? Do you want to know if Eddie was eating speed ? Would he be any less great ? Did Hinault and Fignon both do blow and then ride ? Is it important. People who don't know bike racing think Boonen needs rehab most racers tell him to pick his clubs more carefully. Let Lance be a legend..pretty please with all his flaws.

 

[flicker]

bike centric check out this rider Henk Lubberding also DE Vlaemink Roger and De Vlaemink Eric
Those men could ride also henni Kupier I also like Ullrich and Zabel I chose to overlook their doping. That is European cycling.

American pros are underappreciated for sure. I like to talk to them when they come around the Sea Otter...Met Robert Gesink riding around here, now that is one cool individual

 

[zapata]

Yes fat and fast it is true Lance admitting guilt will bomb bicycle racing back to the stone age. But we Lance haters like watching amatuer cyclists toolin around in abandoned military bases. Because if Lance gets caught or admits doping we will be watching a few races out in the boonies. I won't be there myself.

Do you really think so? When armstrong has been caught, I'll be watching the same races I've been watching before, and enjoying them at least as much.

 

[flicker]

I joke when I say Boonen needs rehab. I do watch some races on abandoned military bases and I saw some guy on a mountain bike in a race ther last year at the otter and he sure did have a rainbow jesey on.

I saw top weenie Leipheimer smoking the US pros at Fort Ord also last year, He toyed with them like a cat withe a mouse.

 

[Anonymous]

Today's Cycling News offers a classic example of Lance working the public through the media. I was afraid the mainstream press was going to miss the story about him no longer posting values online because they lead to "silly speculation". Now he's saying that he just wants to protect himself from guys just out of school, or who finished last in their class, with an implication that that applies to Dr. Jakob Morkeberg.

Armstrong said he has been tested over 50 times this year, and while he began posting the results on his web site early in the year, he stopped after the Tour de France, when a Danish researcher from the same university at which Damsgaard created his testing program questioned whether Armstrong's Tour values were normal.

"It just takes one person to say - it could be a guy who graduated last in his class - you know what they call a guy who graduated last in his class at medical school? That's right, Doctor! So it could be a guy who just got out of college and has one journalist who listens and says these are suspicious," said Armstrong.

Cycling News did a great job investigating the original story. I hope it was discussed at the recent meeting of the biological passport committee. But the way Armstrong put it out there, it was meant to discredit the claims of possible blood transfusions by making it sound like the respected teacher was worst in his class and just out of med school. It's the old game of trying to discredit the source. Morkeberg is a scientist, not a medical doctor, who worked with Damsgaard in the past, and his present supervisor confirmed his findings.

Mørkeberg has just finished a Ph. D. dissertation entitled Detection of Autologous Blood Transfusions via Analyses of Peripheral Blood Samples, and is working on a method to trace this method of doping.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated