Armstrong Not the Focus?

Apr 7, 2009
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May 11, 2009
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I noticed this comment in the story: "If a company had produced an untraceable new steroid like in the Balco case, they'd be interested."

I have often wondered that if a cyclist was taking a product, artificial or natural, and one not listed by WADA (or other agency), and not by injection, if would that be considered doping?

I have heard of athletes being given customized diets and supplements to maximize their performance (not to mention training regimes).
 

flicker

BANNED
Aug 17, 2009
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To me once again a dangerous precedence in cycling doping. Always our sport has been on the forefront of cheating doping etc.
Unfortunately when the UCI, WADA, USOC, come up with banned drugs or find a way to test for a forbidden substance some Dr. Dicc Dastardley comes up with a new PED. Things like calves blood, sea turtle plasma, new steroids,gene splicing.

These are very dangerous. Stick with the tried an true Fuentes/Ferrari methods and I feel the riders would be much safer. Cheating yes, unfair perhaps, but I am always looking out for the safety of the riders.

Of course no doping would be preferable but realisticlley when has that ever happened in cycling?
 
Oct 8, 2010
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mwbyrd said:
Latest on Cyclingnews http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/individual-doping-likely-not-the-focus-of-fda-us-postal-investigation-says-source

TheHog and I had this converstion in another thread but I can't find it. The latest article presents a case that Novitzky is going after the source and not the individual drug users.

I'm still thinking all of the depositions by the cyclists will stay sealed and we will only learn something that was discussed when the dope ring gets busted.
The FDA guy has it wrong. They are likely going after the underlying financial crimes (conspiracy, wire fraud, RICO), and not the mis-use of drugs per se. Nobody in Europe is going to be extradited over this case, so it's likely that those indicted will be only U.S. people.
 
Apr 7, 2009
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TERMINATOR said:
The FDA guy has it wrong. They are likely going after the underlying financial crimes (conspiracy, wire fraud, RICO), and not the mis-use of drugs per se. Nobody in Europe is going to be extradited over this case, so it's likely that those indicted will be only U.S. people.
I'm not sure I'm following you. Would buying 'said' drugs be considered conspiracy or wire fraud? If not, once againg the investigation goes back to the suppliers which could be the drug companies themselves. And the reason the investigation went to Europe was to find out if they know where the drugs are coming from (That's my guess).
 
Oct 7, 2010
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I think the unfortunate thing here is that this case is not going to reform cycling, doping, and enforcement of rules by the UCI, WADA or USADA. Unlike in Baseball, or other organized sports, since there are unions involved, the US Congress and oversight committees are going to draw attention and force an issue. In a sport such as cycling or similar, there isnt a pathway for a major force to come through and clean house. As much as we want to see the top dog become fallible, and by a force of a court case express to the world that more needs to be done, we wont achieve that here. I think that for all of those on this Clinic forum, we mostly want to see an impetus for change.
Until some major force comes about that can truly either bring about a sociological, or bureaucratic method to shape up our sport we are not going to see change from all the US, Italian, Spanish or other potential court cases. Perhaps if the US Congress, or any other nationality can latch their teeth into the WADA or USADA to provide oversight, enforce rules, and give additional strength and resources to shape up amateur and professional sport worldwide, we wont see the change necessary. Novitsky's case in Balco did point out that NFL, MLB, USA Track and Field, and a variety of other sports have a problem. A certain amount of testing is see now, but it is easily averted. We still have yet to fully address the issues at hand, and by point of this, will not see the point at hand in cycling be addressed properly by this case.
This case needs to go through all the motions and rigors, it needs to prove that there is a systematic endeavor at hand. Bring the spotlight to the methods, pathways, and motivations. Perhaps with better knowledge, something can be done, but the case itself will not do that.
 
Aug 4, 2009
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mwbyrd said:
Latest on Cyclingnews http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/individual-doping-likely-not-the-focus-of-fda-us-postal-investigation-says-source

TheHog and I had this converstion in another thread but I can't find it. The latest article presents a case that Novitzky is going after the source and not the individual drug users.

I'm still thinking all of the depositions by the cyclists will stay sealed and we will only learn something that was discussed when the dope ring gets busted.
This investigation is nothing to do with doping WADA or UCI and cycling performance it is to find out if the US Postal money paid to the team, Was public money from the Government used ilegaly to buy drugs.
or who paid for them if they ever had any drugs.
If they prove that then the other parties will have enough evidence to act further. this will go on for years but not sure about statute of limitations in USA in Australia and UK its 6 years. but they can get around that if enough evidence is available.
Either way it will put severn colours of S!!! up anyone who is involved.
if proven then big jail time can be expected by who ever is the leader.
in some countries and its death penalty. OHHH!!!!
 
Jul 6, 2010
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flicker said:
To me once again a dangerous precedence in cycling doping. Always our sport has been on the forefront of cheating doping etc.
Unfortunately when the UCI, WADA, USOC, come up with banned drugs or find a way to test for a forbidden substance some Dr. Dicc Dastardley comes up with a new PED. Things like calves blood, sea turtle plasma, new steroids,gene splicing.

These are very dangerous. Stick with the tried an true Fuentes/Ferrari methods and I feel the riders would be much safer. Cheating yes, unfair perhaps, but I am always looking out for the safety of the riders.

Of course no doping would be preferable but realisticlley when has that ever happened in cycling?
Why? Because cycling is a sport that is largely based on systemic physiological performance.

Little skill, big lungs.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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PotentialPro said:
I think the unfortunate thing here is that this case is not going to reform cycling, doping, and enforcement of rules by the UCI, WADA or USADA. Unlike in Baseball, or other organized sports, since there are unions involved, the US Congress and oversight committees are going to draw attention and force an issue. In a sport such as cycling or similar, there isnt a pathway for a major force to come through and clean house. As much as we want to see the top dog become fallible, and by a force of a court case express to the world that more needs to be done, we wont achieve that here. I think that for all of those on this Clinic forum, we mostly want to see an impetus for change.
Until some major force comes about that can truly either bring about a sociological, or bureaucratic method to shape up our sport we are not going to see change from all the US, Italian, Spanish or other potential court cases. Perhaps if the US Congress, or any other nationality can latch their teeth into the WADA or USADA to provide oversight, enforce rules, and give additional strength and resources to shape up amateur and professional sport worldwide, we wont see the change necessary. Novitsky's case in Balco did point out that NFL, MLB, USA Track and Field, and a variety of other sports have a problem. A certain amount of testing is see now, but it is easily averted. We still have yet to fully address the issues at hand, and by point of this, will not see the point at hand in cycling be addressed properly by this case.
This case needs to go through all the motions and rigors, it needs to prove that there is a systematic endeavor at hand. Bring the spotlight to the methods, pathways, and motivations. Perhaps with better knowledge, something can be done, but the case itself will not do that.
The only outfall from Balco was Congressional pressure on the US sports enjoying monopolistic franchises: NFL and MLB. USADA as an enforcement arm shouldn't be worried about the sport, just the traffic in substances that threaten the health of citizens and how it is facilitated. Having Interpol help will chill the channels of PED transmission somewhat but for how long?

Your take on the sociological change necessary to reform any sporting fraud is correct IMO.

That Lance is not the sole focus should be obvious. That he will be the poster child for the consequences remains to be seen but, to have an effect; this investigation needs to hurt someone big in a visible way.
 
While it may be obvious that LA is not the sole focus of the investigation, why is it he has not been subpoenaed yet? Because they know he is going to lie? Of course he will. So do they want to get everyone else testimony first and corroborated? It does seem telling that he has not been called yet.
 
May 26, 2009
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Uh oh. If LA does not get hung out to dry by this investigation, there's going to be some mental implosions here.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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yourwelcome said:
Uh oh. If LA does not get hung out to dry by this investigation, there's going to be some mental implosions here.
Can you see an outcome for which that wouldn't be the case?

And sometimes that seems to be the more permanent state of things here anyway.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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The addition of an FBI Special Agent to the Interpol meetings has me curious. I wonder if he might be working on the Whistleblower lawsuit? We already know the names of the people who were served on that one, which will of course be focused on possible fraud.

But remember that France, Italy, Spain and Belgium had representatives at the meetings in Lyons. The AFLD had already signed an agreement before the Tour to share information with Interpol, Customs and French law enforcement to help track down international doping rings to supply athletes across sports. They weren't just there to help the U.S. investigation. So even though Europeans other than Bruyneel might not be indicted by the Feds, that doesn't mean other countries won't charge them, especially the ones where doping, or even the possession of certain doping products, is illegal.

The meeting took place at the international police headquarters, Interpol in Lyon. It attended by representatives from France, Spain and Italy, countries where Armstrong lived or trained. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) criminal investigator Jeff Novitzky led the US delegation. He travelled with US Anti-Doping Agency CEO Travis Tygart, Assistant US attorney Doug Miller, his co-counsel Mark Williams and FBI special agent Olivier Faraole.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/507772/european-trip-suggests-armstrong-doping-probe-serious.html

For the rest of it, I think the extent of the Federal investigation is only limited by our individual investigations. Armstrong would be at the center, based on interrogation of Betsy Andreu and McIlvain, Greg LeMond, the documents from the Trek lawsuit, the SCA one, documents requested from Trek and Nike, etc. I remember employment law being mentioned before as a tiny piece of the puzzle. And Bordry had been communicating with Novitsky for months before he made the public offer to test or turn over Armstrong's samples.
 
May 26, 2009
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Francois the Postman said:
Can you see an outcome for which that wouldn't be the case?
I take your point ;-)

But still, I think there's a lot of high profile posters on this forum with their mental health deeply invested in LA going to jail ever since Novitsky took on this case.
 
Jul 11, 2010
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Armstrong is the focus, just not what he *used* necessarily. Armstrong was on a mission to basically OWN cycling: bikes, parts, clothes, accessories, a little race called the Tour de France, and... <fill in the obvious blank that the most of the peloton can't survive big GT's without>

Think about it. Why else do six Feds fly to Europe? Fresh croissants?
 
Apr 7, 2009
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AnythingButKestrel said:
Armstrong is the focus, just not what he *used* necessarily. Armstrong was on a mission to basically OWN cycling: bikes, parts, clothes, accessories, a little race called the Tour de France, and... <fill in the obvious blank that the most of the peloton can't survive big GT's without>

Think about it. Why else do six Feds fly to Europe? Fresh croissants?
Do you really, I mean REALLY, think LA is/was/wanted to be the biggest drug supplier in Cycling/Sports. That's really far reaching...

And do you really think he wants to have a bike company (ie LeMond), Clothes (He gets free Nike gear), The Tour (Who cares....companies change hands all the time)....
 
Aug 13, 2009
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I guess I should pat myself on the back like the Hog does all the time.

I have been saying this for months. The focus is much more then just Armstrong and yes, experimental drugs are part of it. I have posted about hearing a story from a teammate about the purchase of the supply of an experimental cancer drug that did not get off the ground and was unable to secure funding. A certain rider who was well versed in the area discovered it on his own....did not even need Dr. Ferrari help. He was so proud of his discovery he made the mistake of bragging to teammates about it and evening showing them the website.

I hope the financial issues play a role. It would be a shame for the UCI and Verbruggen/McQuaid to escape scrutiny in this case. As is the case with most investigations like this they have likely entered into the phase where they decide which charges to bring on who. I would expect some disagreement on this amongst the Feds. While the case may appears very close to finality it is often the case that it will take some weeks to finalize....plenty of time for Armstrong to work on his plea.....err, defense.

The FBI guy was likely a France based agent acting as a facilitator.
 
If Armstrong wasn't partly ( at least) one if the focus points of the investigation, then you would think that he would have been interviewed by now- not left to stew, and post stupid tweets.

As someone posted on another thread...it sound like some ducks are being lined up in a row.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Nick777 said:
If Armstrong wasn't partly ( at least) one if the focus points of the investigation, then you would think that he would have been interviewed by now- not left to stew, and post stupid tweets.

As someone posted on another thread...it sound like some ducks are being lined up in a row.
Not exactly. A common tactic is to get all the evidence then let your target hang himself with a perjury charge. Lance would be the last guy they talk to
 
Race Radio said:
Not exactly. A common tactic is to get all the evidence then let your target hang himself with a perjury charge. Lance would be the last guy they talk to
Yeah - kind of what I meant - if he is one of the people they are after, leave him dangling whilst talking to everyone BUT him..
 
I wrote it since the very beginning of the investigation and I'll do it once more:
The feds are going after the doping ring -for what Bruyneel is going to fall first-then his testimony will be the key to confront and ultimately incriminate LA.
It has just begun.
 
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