Armstrong Not the Focus?

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Oct 25, 2010
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flicker said:
This I agree with. Without Eddie B. and Ed Burke, and without the "naturally talented" TdF winner LeMond Lance probably never would have existed.

To me Lance played on a level playing field in Europe.

The posters and haters on this site, I imagine come from the UK understandably where doping is unheard of. I understand the outrage by being beaten by Armstrong, simply not fair.

The investigation hopefully will stick, against the suppliers and provacatuers,
in the doping game.

I still do not understand the outrage against Armstrong. He and Johann carry a long tradition in European cycling.

I suppose as a friend of mine commented if Lance was doping unabated, using the most experimental, expensive and powerful dope exceeding any of his opponents doping exploits he could be called a cheat.

This is an opinion shared by many. Not me.

If not, well call him a mediocre classics rider who was enhanced into an uber
champion, patron du peloton etc.

I do not consider Lance any different than any other top tier pro rider nor European footballer.

Therefore I still consider the investigation a witch hunt.
I thought you were a martyr, not an apologist.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
He never tested positive while alive
I was really just pointing out the fallacy of flicker's assertion, but you raise an interesting question: do you actually have to be living to test positive?
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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frenchfry said:
And this is why I consider your opinions on the subject worthless. A question of values I would think - cheating to me is inherently wrong whether everyone else is doing it or not.
I respect your opinion but cycling is a game of cheating, endurance,skill, natural ability. Tennis for instance you try to hit the ball into a place where the opponent cannot return it.

Really the only fair cycling would be where 2 opponents are (undoped) on opposite sides of the track indoor climate controlled and try to catch one another in a timed event. Individual pursuit,which is no more no more in the Olympics.

Pure ability, absolutley no way to cheat, strongest man or woman wins.

Other than that event in my opinion cycling is all about getting an "edge" on your opponent. Not unlike tennis.
 

jimmypop

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Jul 16, 2010
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acoggan said:
I was really just pointing out the fallacy of flicker's assertion, but you raise an interesting question: do you actually have to be living to test positive?
Pantani also never tested positive while alive.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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L'arriviste said:
People (from all over the world) have been saying what they think about Armstrong for a lot longer. It is not a witch hunt, it is just history catching up and examining someone who most of us feel deserves to be examined.
Bingo. I disliked Lance back in the day because he was the biggest jerk in American bike racing. Then he came down with Cancer, I felt bad for him, and he made a comeback. I became a fanboy. I thought his book was a turnaround story of redemption and humility. Then more time passed. I now realize that I've been had. And I dislike that this guy couldn't stop at being allowed to live again. Instead, he went for broke on fraud. And he'll soon get it.
 
L'arriviste said:
Even Sean Yates was busted once. ;) It's more a question of there being less Brits represented rather than there being no dopers.

Sorry flicker, even granted that you're generally polite and well-meaning, I think that your argument doesn't really stand up and it's replete with the same sort of facile geopolitical bias you level at Europeans.

The US government in its various agency forms is actually the latecomer in all this. People (from all over the world) have been saying what they think about Armstrong for a lot longer. It is not a witch hunt, it is just history catching up and examining someone who most of us feel deserves to be examined.
Although not cycling Dwain Chambers and Christine Ohuruogu both had severe sentences for two extremes of dope and non-dope use.

Dwain learnt his use from the Americans.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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flicker said:
I still do not understand the outrage against Armstrong. He and Johann carry a long tradition in European cycling.
I don't see much outrage against Armstrong having doped himself.
I see outrage against the system that let him dope himself and still take home 7 TdF titles.
Then there is the fact that Armstrong is so vehemently denying the accusations. But this isn't causing any outrage against him either, but just mere pleasure in seeing him (and all others involved) fall flat on their faces.
 
sniper said:
I don't see much outrage against Armstrong having doped himself.
I see outrage against the system that let him dope himself and still take home 7 TdF titles.
Then there is the fact that Armstrong is so vehemently denying the accusations. But this isn't causing any outrage against him either, but just mere pleasure in seeing him (and all others involved) fall flat on their faces.
Have to say they've stopped "vehemently denying". Its now "we passed the tests" and "Floyd is a liar".
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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L'arriviste said:
Even Sean Yates was busted once. ;) It's more a question of there being less Brits represented rather than there being no dopers.

Sorry flicker, even granted that you're generally polite and well-meaning, I think that your argument doesn't really stand up and it's replete with the same sort of facile geopolitical bias you level at Europeans.

The US government in its various agency forms is actually the latecomer in all this. People (from all over the world) have been saying what they think about Armstrong for a lot longer. It is not a witch hunt, it is just history catching up and examining someone who most of us feel deserves to be examined.
The question is in Europe when Mussew was aquireing large amounts of vetenary supplies how was it dealt with by interpol, Belgian police etc' Did Muessews' outing as a doper clean up the peloton at all?

Is hanging Armstrong on the cross or Contador on the cross a solution to doping in sports. (Notice the interviewer on Spanish TV with Contador refering to the Spanish sporting authority as Pontius Pilate?)

If you take Floyd and LeMond were out of the Armstrong equation I wouldn't even make all this noise, I would shut up. To me the whole Armstrong investigation stinks of yet more GW Bush fighting Papas enemy Saddam, and Monika and Bill Clinton having private moments, a waste of the taxpayers money.
 
L'arriviste said:
Even Sean Yates was busted once. ;) It's more a question of there being less Brits represented rather than there being no dopers.

Sorry flicker, even granted that you're generally polite and well-meaning, I think that your argument doesn't really stand up and it's replete with the same sort of facile geopolitical bias you level at Europeans.

The US government in its various agency forms is actually the latecomer in all this. People (from all over the world) have been saying what they think about Armstrong for a lot longer. It is not a witch hunt, it is just history catching up and examining someone who most of us feel deserves to be examined.
In fact what is interesting here is that the investigating agency has no ties to the cycling world. The results of the investigation should therefore be less politically questionable than a classic anti-doping case where there is often a lot of inbreeding and too many agendas for the results to be considered independant by many. Who knows if Jeff Novitzky even knws how to ride a bike?

If Armstrong and his merry band are prosecuted, and especially if they are convicted, for violating US federal laws this will be a much more significant event than a simple doping case following a positive test that is tried by USADA.

In a way, Armstrong fans should welcome the investigation. If Novitzky concludes that Landis is lying then Armstrong will be vindicated and the hero worship can reach new levels. If Novitzky tells us that the 9 riders on the broken down bus were simply having a beer or watching motivational porn flics without them showing up on the hotel bill, then all the haters will have a lot of egg covered faces. Look at this as an opportunity.

By the way, those in Europe that are investigated for and found guilty of trafficing PEDs are jailed. It just might not make the international headlines. For example Laurent Roux got a 30 month prison sentence.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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jimmypop said:
Pantani also never tested positive while alive.
When he crashed in 1995, breaking his leg, he was in the hospital. When they first tested his crit, he was at 60%. They had to delay the surgery because of it. But he'd been abusing EPO so much, his body had stopped producing it naturally (it being a hormone needed for RBC production). Being deprived of his regular injections, his crit then crashed to such a dangerously low level, that he almost died. Prompting the doc to ask him point-blank if he was abusing EPO.
 
BotanyBay said:
When he crashed in 1995, breaking his leg, he was in the hospital. When they first tested his crit, he was at 60%. They had to delay the surgery because of it. But he'd been abusing EPO so much, his body had stopped producing it naturally (it being a hormone needed for RBC production). Being deprived of his regular injections, his crit then crashed to such a dangerously low level, that he almost died. Prompting the doc to ask him point-blank if he was abusing EPO.
Was he the first person to test positive with a broken leg whilst alive? or the first to test positive with broken leg when not dead?
 
Oct 25, 2010
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flicker said:
Is hanging Armstrong on the cross or Contador on the cross a solution to doping in sports. (Notice the interviewer on Spanish TV with Contador refering to the Spanish sporting authority as Pontius Pilate?)
It would not be the first time an elite athlete tried to equate himself with Jesus. He just can't see how ridiculous he looks.

If you've ever experienced a family member with an alcohol problem, you'd know that the worst thing you can do for them is to help enable them or spare them from suffering the consequences of their addiction. Without suffering those consequences, the behavior never stops. They think they're "managing" it.

Please stop your deification by equating their demise with a crucifiction. Can we please leave religion out of this?

These guys have not been exposed due to particularly vicious hounds. These guys have been exposed because fraud and addiction eventually become so big that they're eventually unmanageable. No one ever gets away with it forever.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
When he crashed in 1995, breaking his leg, he was in the hospital. When they first tested his crit, he was at 60%. They had to delay the surgery because of it. But he'd been abusing EPO so much, his body had stopped producing it naturally (it being a hormone needed for RBC production). Being deprived of his regular injections, his crit then crashed to such a dangerously low level, that he almost died. Prompting the doc to ask him point-blank if he was abusing EPO.
To be fair, an elevated Hct is a common side effect of a crash.
http://www.fsijournal.org/article/PIIS0379073810001532/abstract?rss=yes

Not that I think Pantani was clean but it may explain why his Hct was so high that day.
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
It would not be the first time an elite athlete tried to equate himself with Jesus. He just can't see how ridiculous he looks.

If you've ever experienced a family member with an alcohol problem, you'd know that the worst thing you can do for them is to help enable them or spare them from suffering the consequences of their addiction. Without suffering those consequences, the behavior never stops. They think they're "managing" it.

Please stop your deification by equating their demise with a crucifiction. Can we please leave religion out of this?

These guys have not been exposed due to particularly vicious hounds. These guys have been exposed because fraud and addiction eventually become so big that they're eventually unmanageable. No one ever gets away with it forever.
I agree with you but listen to the interview with Contador.

I believe what you are speaking of is denial.

I am big fan of Contador, Merckx E.+A, Armstrong, Cadel.JENS! and Mussew.

What needs to be looked at is what they say, yes it is evasive, some might call it lying, but in an ironic manner they all acknowledge the doping problem in sport and none deny it is an issue. I know that they would all deny it but as a proffessional who wouldn't? That is your profession, I wouldn't want to lose my job.

There are many ways to tell a lie and sometimes the truth is told through lies.

As far as Lance/Floyd/LeMond and Contador/UCI/Spanish doping authorities go, I think it is quite biblical, not religious per say but straight out of the bible. Cycling and the bible are really teaching us how to live and not to live.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Race Radio said:
To be fair, an elevated Hct is a common side effect of a crash.
http://www.fsijournal.org/article/PIIS0379073810001532/abstract?rss=yes

Not that I think Pantani was clean but it may explain why his Hct was so high that day.
I once read a pretty detailed account of this event. The docs also thought that a spike in Hct was not so weird, so they just said "We'll delay the surgery until it comes back down". And down it came. Well below 40%. So low that they gave him a transfusion to keep him alive. They'd never seen a situation where RBC production rose and then crashed so badly. So they retested with the same results.

The truth is, he was probably racing with a crit higher than 60%. They didn't test his crit until the next day.

There wasn't even a disease explanation for such a situation, so they knew right there that he must have been abusing EPO. It was the only medical explanation possible. The doc asked him and he nodded yes.

We already knew people were getting killed prior to 95, but clearly he was not doing this with competent medical help. His body had lost the ability to generate RBCs without using rEPO, as his kidneys simply 'gave up' producing natural EPO. With so much rEPO in the bloodstream, why bother making any?
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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Gasp....cough, cough on my deathbed now.....gasp cough, cough, my Lance, he is innocent...... you've never seen what my eyes have seen, suprernovas in Andromeda, Lance innocent..... time to die now....flick.....
 
Aug 13, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
I once read a pretty detailed account of this event. The docs also thought that a spike in Hct was not so weird, so they just said "We'll delay the surgery until it comes back down". And down it came. Well below 40%. So low that they gave him a transfusion to keep him alive. They'd never seen a situation where RBC production rose and then crashed so badly. So they retested with the same results.

The truth is, he was probably racing with a crit higher than 60%. They didn't test his crit until the next day.

There wasn't even a disease explanation for such a situation, so they knew right there that he must have been abusing EPO. It was the only medical explanation possible. The doc asked him and he nodded yes.

We already knew people were getting killed prior to 95, but clearly he was not doing this with competent medical help. His body had lost the ability to generate RBCs without using rEPO, as his kidneys simply 'gave up' producing natural EPO. With so much rEPO in the bloodstream, why bother making any?
Agreed. It does appear the Pantani hit multiple drugs so hard that his body had issues producing natural levels.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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flicker said:
Gasp....cough, cough on my deathbed now.....gasp cough, cough, my Lance, he is innocent...... you've never seen what my eyes have seen, suprernovas in Andromeda, Lance innocent..... time to die now....flick.....
Like tears in the rain.
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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MacRoadie said:
Hate much?
I don't hate Greg. I hope he does what is best for cycling. If he beat a bunch of fuelers during his career it makes him an even greater champion.
He sure looked a lot better on a bike than Lance.
 
BotanyBay said:
I once read a pretty detailed account of this event. The docs also thought that a spike in Hct was not so weird, so they just said "We'll delay the surgery until it comes back down". And down it came. Well below 40%. So low that they gave him a transfusion to keep him alive. They'd never seen a situation where RBC production rose and then crashed so badly. So they retested with the same results.

The truth is, he was probably racing with a crit higher than 60%. They didn't test his crit until the next day.

There wasn't even a disease explanation for such a situation, so they knew right there that he must have been abusing EPO. It was the only medical explanation possible. The doc asked him and he nodded yes.

We already knew people were getting killed prior to 95, but clearly he was not doing this with competent medical help. His body had lost the ability to generate RBCs without using rEPO, as his kidneys simply 'gave up' producing natural EPO. With so much rEPO in the bloodstream, why bother making any?
Were the Anderu's in the room?
 
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