Armstrong's Future

[UlleGigo]

in all this debate i still fail to see something that would convince me he and other former teammates are dopers

This is powerfully stupid.

Do you realise that Landis is a former teammate?

It's kind of the crux of the whole story. I'm surprised you could miss it actually. Actually no I'm not, your an Armstrong supporter.

 

[saganftw]

Respect. Hasn't won that.

cmon you cant say he s got no respect
i d say hes got more fans as a rider and as a person than any other rider ...also hes got the most haters

 

[thehog]

The Hog: Please give a source and link for the text you have quoted, or I will delete it.

Susan

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2010-05-23-lance-armstrong-floyd-landis-shakedown_N.htm

 

[saganftw]

This is powerfully stupid.

Do you realise that Landis is a former teammate?

It's kind of the crux of the whole story. I'm surprised you could miss it actually. Actually no I'm not, your an Armstrong supporter.

i meant those former teammates landis mentioned in his emails,sry for not being precise

btw i am not LA supporter,im not his fan,i like other riders but before i start to call ANY rider a doper id like to have him banned by national authority or UCI...im not expert nor scientist,i cant tell who is clean who isnt sitting behind my PC

 

[Anonymous]

Amstel, LBL, Ronde, Lombardy, Roubaix, Paris-Tours, Wevelgem, Sanremo TT WC etc. Seriously, on what planet does a WC, 2 of the smaller classics and 2 1-week races and the Tour constitute everything their is to win in cycling? Monuments anyone?

Paris - Nice
And of course hes never won the tour of california, so hes actually only won one of the four grand tours.. pretty poor when you consider him against other legends

 

[Roland Rat]

General Classification
(1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005)
22 Individual Stages
World Cycling Champion (1993)
US National Cycling Champion (1993)
Clásica de San Sebastián (1995)
La Flèche Wallonne (1996)
Tour de Suisse (2001)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (2002, 2003)


What else is there to win besides giro and the vuelta hes won some of the best races there is to win in the sport...

Compare to:

5 x Tour de France
2 x Giro D'Italia
1 x World Time-Trial Championship
1 x Olympics Individual Time Trial
2 x Dauphiné Libéré
2 x Paris-Nice
1 x Clásica de San Sebastián
1 x Critérium International
1 x Grand prix du Midi Libre
3 x Volta a Catalunya
Lots x respect

I know which palmares I would prefer.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

i meant those former teammates landis mentioned in his emails,sry for not being precise

btw i am not LA supporter,im not his fan,i like other riders but before i start to call ANY rider a doper id like to have him banned by national authority or UCI...im not expert nor scientist,i cant tell who is clean who isnt sitting behind my PC

He was poitive in the 99 TdF and had to cough up a TUE - and how does a rider get banned when they fly to meet Uncle Hein and hand over cash?

Do you believe Pantani is a doper? What about Valverde, still not suspended his National Fed or the UCI.

 

[Anonymous]

ive got the sex pistols stuck in my head

 

[saganftw]

He was poitive in the 99 TdF and had to cough up a TUE - and how does a rider get banned when they fly to meet Uncle Hein and hand over cash?

Do you believe Pantani is a doper? What about Valverde, still not fully suspended.

so you say LA bought his innocence...but why didnt vino do it?or ricco?di luca?if you say that it is possible to bribe why only LA get away with it? i dont see logic,if they accept money from LA i d think they take money from anyone who is willing to pay,why only LA can bribe?

afaik pantani was doper,i remember i think it was giro 99 (??) he failed blood test
valverde is kinda funny,banned in italy only ,i dont really know what is this about,if its only some sort of revenge or whatever

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

so you say LA bought his innocence...but why didnt vino do it?or ricco?di luca?if you say that it is possible to bribe why only LA get away with it? i dont see logic,if they accept money from LA i d think they take money from anyone who is willing to pay,why only LA can bribe?

None of those guys were the current multiple TdF winner with a huge image in cycling when they were caught. Armstrong was a household name. Busting him would have given cycling the mother of all black eyes.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

so you say LA bought his innocence...but why didnt vino do it?or ricco?di luca?if you say that it is possible to bribe why only LA get away with it? i dont see logic,if they accept money from LA i d think they take money from anyone who is willing to pay,why only LA can bribe?

It was before the UCI had to give over results to WADA.
At the time it was the IOC & UCI that positives went to, handy that Verbruggen was President of the UCI and also had a very high position in the IOC.

And again, what about Pantani or Valverde - did they dope?

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Wishful thinking.

The wishful thinking is among those waiting for him to fall as hard and fast as Roger Clemens (baseball, see wikipedia).

He'll kick the can down the road long enough and throw enough plausible deniability so that by the time any punishment comes, it will be a distant convoluted memory.

People's imaginations here are running away with them.

 

[saganftw]

None of those guys were the current multiple TdF winner with a huge image in cycling when they were caught. Armstrong was a household name. Busting him would have given cycling the mother of all black eyes.

ok but the guys i mentioned could still bribe, armstrong would be still clean,they would be clean,image of cycling perfect...probably they didnt offer that much

 

[Dr. Maserati]

so you say LA bought his innocence...but why didnt vino do it?or ricco?di luca?if you say that it is possible to bribe why only LA get away with it? i dont see logic,if they accept money from LA i d think they take money from anyone who is willing to pay,why only LA can bribe?

afaik pantani was doper,i remember i think it was giro 99 (??) he failed blood test
valverde is kinda funny,banned in italy only ,i dont really know what is this about,if its only some sort of revenge or whatever

Ah.... I see you added in the reply to the Pantani & Valverde question.

You need to go to your local RadioShack (only in the US) to get your doping radar fixed.

Pantani never failed a dope test and was never sanctioned - he had an elevated HCT, which requires 2 weeks inactivity for health reasons.
By your qualification Pantani is as clean as Lance.

Nothing 'funny' about Valverde either - poor guy is clean, even his own Federation would rather go to CAs then sanction him.
Just because those jealous meany Italians say so, and the UCI haven't even backed them up. Valverde is also as clean as Lance.

 

[saganftw]

It was before the UCI had to give over results to WADA.
At the time it was the IOC & UCI that positives went to, handy that Verbruggen was President of the UCI and also had a very high position in the IOC.

And again, what about Pantani or Valverde - did they dope?

i see so now its a lot harder to bribe because you have to pay UCI and WADA,before you only need to pay verbruggen

ok pantani-i dont know if he was doper,he failed test it was too high hematocrit which SUGGESTED epo- now im not doctor,i cannot say if its posible to have that high hematocrit w/o using epo so before i say yes he was doper i would need to do some google search...ofc if its imposible w/o epo than yes he was doper

valverde- he is as much doper as basso,never caught but it was his blood in operacion puerto,so did he use it? i dont know and because i dont know i cannot say he is doper

edit: ok he didnt fail,i dont know,i used wiki and they say he failed...the point is his hematocrit was too high

 

[Dr. Maserati]

i see so now its a lot harder to bribe because you have to pay UCI and WADA,before you only need to pay verbruggen

ok pantani-i don't know if he was doper,he failed test it was too high hematocrit which SUGGESTED epo- now im not doctor,i cannot say if its posible to have that high hematocrit w/o using epo so before i say yes he was doper i would need to do some google search...ofc if its imposible w/o epo than yes he was doper

valverde- he is as much doper as basso,never caught but it was his blood in operacion puerto,so did he use it? i dont know and because i dont know i cannot say he is doper

Mr Valverdes and his extensive legal team appreciate your conclusion.

As for Pantani - he was tested at altitude, was probably dehydrated and had gastroenteritis and a doss of the trots. Its easy to explain.

As for Basso - as you point out is very very clean too - you cant be leaving bags of blood in the fridge when you have young children in the house. Much safer to leave it in the apartment of a gynecologist in a different country for €70,000 a year.

 

[Love the Scenery]

I did for the patients

Armstrong has had way more money than any other cyclist in history. His sponsorship deals were huge. I live in Texas just a short drive from him. His wasteful and ostentatious wealth is well known around here, as is his utter disregard for his neighbors. What kind of a person uses 330 thousand gallons of water a month to sustain lawns, palm trees, and swimming pools in central Texas? Lance Armstrong, that's who. [to give you an idea, my wife and I used less than 3 thousand gallons last month] The point is, the man has huge financial resources, far beyond those of any other cyclist, and the reason he has those resources is his ability to create a narrative that is attractive to the US public: cancer victim heroically recovers to defeat the decadent Europeans at their own game.

I don't believe that if Armstrong has to admit to doping, his career will go down the tubes. What about the following narrative:
"I did it for the cancer victims. I realized that with doping, I could win races and attract attention to an important cause. My TdF victories attracted attention to my foundation and my foundation has saved thousands of lives. That's why I did it: to save lives. And I've saved lives. I apologize for lying and ask for forgiveness. I will continue to battle to help people who are suffering from cancer. Please join me in this ongoing fight."

Of course, his public relations crew is exponentially better than I am.

 

[Love the Scenery]

When did this turn into a "did Pantani and Valverde dope" thread?

 

[alberto.legstrong]

ive got the sex pistols stuck in my head

hate it when that happens.

The only cure I have found is to listen to what's in your head like 4 or 5 times and it sort of 'knocks it out of your ears'. Sort of like banging a shoe on the pavement to get a pebble out.

I got Cyndi Lauper's Girls just wanna have fun stuck one time. I had to leave work and download the song to my mp3 to make it stop.

 

[saganftw]

Mr Valverdes and his extensive legal team appreciate your conclusion.

As for Pantani - he was tested at altitude, was probably dehydrated and had gastroenteritis and a doss of the trots. Its easy to explain.

As for Basso - as you point out is very very clean too - you cant be leaving bags of blood in the fridge when you have young children in the house. Much safer to leave it in the apartment of a gynecologist in a different country for €70,000 a year.

you may laugh but im actually law faculty student thats why i like to be very carefull naming and shaming even if its only forum

as for pantani - as i said i have no medical knowledge,so i cannot argue in that department, if you say you can have high hematocrit w/o using epo ok pantani was not doper- i trust you dont lie,because i dont have a doctor near me to ask

as for basso and valverde - im not saying it wasnt their blood...but did they actually use it? i dont know, do you? if you are 100% sure they did some transfusion pls send me a link, id like to read it too...afaik having bags of blood is not doping its worth 2 year ban though

 

[VeloCity]

None of those guys were the current multiple TdF winner with a huge image in cycling when they were caught. Armstrong was a household name. Busting him would have given cycling the mother of all black eyes.

Especially as it was virtually on the heels of the Festina blowup - Armstrong's win in '99 was heralded by Verbruggen and the UCI as the "return of clean cycling" in the wake of the Festina scandal, so imagine the blow to cycling's image and reputation if the reigning Tour de France winner - especially being, at that time, a very, very popular winner with a great personal story in Armstrong - were to be exposed as a doper via a positive test? Would've been a complete disaster.

If the Swiss positive did happen, and I'm not saying that it did or it didn't, I could see how the UCI potentially would be as anxious to make it go away as Armstrong and Bruyneel were.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

When did this turn into a "did Pantani and Valverde dope" thread?

Apologies - it was when someone uses one criteria to excuse Lance and uses the same criteria to call others dopers.
One last effort and then I'll stop.

you may laugh but im actually law faculty student thats why i like to be very carefull naming and shaming even if its only forum

as for pantani - as i said i have no medical knowledge,so i cannot argue in that department, if you say you can have high hematocrit w/o using epo ok pantani was not doper- i trust you dont lie,because i dont have a doctor near me to ask

as for basso and valverde - im not saying it wasnt their blood...but did they actually use it? i dont know, do you? if you are 100% sure they did some transfusion pls send me a link, id like to read it too...afaik having bags of blood is not doping its worth 2 year ban though

Your in law? Yes, Pantani, Basso, Valverde all doped - but by your application of the law, Pantani was never sanctioned for failing a drug test, Valverde has not been sanctioned by either his own fed or the UCI. Basso claims not to have doped - CONI had his financial trail, how much he spent and what drugs he bought - attempting to dope is viewed as a sanctionable offence equal to a positive.

Lance and Valverde are the only 2 of the 4 mentioned to have EPO pop up in their samples.

 

[saganftw]

Apologies - it was when someone uses one criteria to excuse Lance and uses the same criteria to call others dopers.
One last effort and then I'll stop.




Your in law? Yes, Pantani, Basso, Valverde all doped - but by your application of the law, Pantani was never sanctioned for failing a drug test, Valverde has not been sanctioned by either his own fed or the UCI. Basso claims not to have doped - CONI had his financial trail, how much he spent and what drugs he bought - attempting to dope is viewed as a sanctionable offence equal to a positive.

Lance and Valverde are the only 2 of the 4 mentioned to have EPO pop up in their samples.

yeah those samples from 1999,he didnt want to have them retested because he was afraid they werent maintained properly...he has good lawyers obviously

you have any idea since when he s clean?

 

[Roland Rat]

Probably next week.

Oh I don't know about that, he may keep one or two steroids to tick over... it's not just hard work that goes into producing a body to seduce an Olsen twin with.

 

[red_flanders]

ok pantani-i dont know if he was doper,he failed test it was too high hematocrit which SUGGESTED epo- now im not doctor,i cannot say if its posible to have that high hematocrit w/o using epo so before i say yes he was doper i would need to do some google search...ofc if its imposible w/o epo than yes he was doper

Whereas Lance was CONFIRMED to have EPO in his blood. No suggestion, no question, CONFIRMED to have 6 (or 8) positive results for EPO.

That both are/were dopers in not in doubt. Yet Pantani's history is cleaner than Lance's. That's a fact.