Astana 2009

After reading the 'Tour De Lance' book - I was wondering how the roles of Armstrong and Contador differed at Astana in 2009 and also were they 'using' different sources for any potential performance enhancing substances?

I thought it was interesting that Armstrong managed to turn the whole team (at least at the Tour) against Contador, on to his side, even the Spanish/Portuguese riders,

Given that LA is accused of turning team mates to doping, how would have it of worked at Astana?

Interestingly what are people's thoughts on the others who kept up with Armstrong/Contador on that Tour, The Schelcks, Wiggins, Kloden, Nibali ???
 
May 26, 2010
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I guess the information about doping on Astana is more relevant to Bruyneel and hopefully that will tie in with Contador and we will see to what extent the team was running a program.

A lot more riders names could be appearing.
 
Whilst I welcome the truth to come out about LA

I worry just how many others will come out of the woodwork,

I'm finding it hard to believe about Wiggins in 09 at Garmin keeping to within a minute of Armstrong through a 3 week race?
 
May 9, 2012
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MellowJohnny said:
Whilst I welcome the truth to come out about LA

I worry just how many others will come out of the woodwork,

I'm finding it hard to believe about Wiggins in 09 at Garmin keeping to within a minute of Armstrong through a 3 week race?
He didn't matter at the start. Nobody expected him to not crack. Despite his performance in the first part of the Giro (after which he retired to the autobus)
 
May 26, 2010
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MellowJohnny said:
Whilst I welcome the truth to come out about LA

I worry just how many others will come out of the woodwork,

I'm finding it hard to believe about Wiggins in 09 at Garmin keeping to within a minute of Armstrong through a 3 week race?
Only diehard Sky fans believe in Wiggins.
 
What about Age, would/could an older rider like Armstrong still achieve such benefits as the younger Wiggins back then?

I'm finding it hard to understand the isolation with Contador and Armstrong at Astana if they were both on the good stuff
 
Jul 21, 2012
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No way in hell was Wiggins clean in 2009. He did a Froome esque transformation from a nobody to someone who could suddenly climb with the best
 
Jun 13, 2009
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the sceptic said:
No way in hell was Wiggins clean in 2009. He did a Froome esque transformation from a nobody to someone who could suddenly climb with the best
He certainly did. The shock of Liggett/Sherwin seeing him up there in the front group and not spat out of the back like his whining, anti-doping days.

But hey, apparently that's because he just focused on the track and now he focused on the road. I guess if Sven Nijs stopped being so damn obsessed with cyclo-cross, he could be a tour winner too(!)
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Dead Star said:
He certainly did. The shock of Liggett/Sherwin seeing him up there in the front group and not spat out of the back like his whining, anti-doping days.

But hey, apparently that's because he just focused on the track and now he focused on the road. I guess if Sven Nijs stopped being so damn obsessed with cyclo-cross, he could be a tour winner too(!)
2006 Dauphine prologue. 4.1km TT. 21st.

I love the Internet and its glorious memory.
 
Has Wiggo actually turned turtle and gone with epo etc in 09 or did he just cut out the booze and the rock n roll lifestyle?

It seems odd as he's at Garmin at the time, but he was keeping up with some pretty formidable riders
 
Sep 29, 2012
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MellowJohnny said:
Has Wiggo actually turned turtle and gone with epo etc in 09 or did he just cut out the booze and the rock n roll lifestyle?

It seems odd as he's at Garmin at the time, but he was keeping up with some pretty formidable riders
Garmin was a smokescreen. In 2009 he was training in Girona and Manchester (Sky's HQ) and coached by Rod Ellingworth (Sky's head coach).

His VO2max was maxed - no improvement between 2004 and 2008 in 4km IP ride times. His 4.1km TT in 2006 placed him 21st. I believe he was clean. We see exactly the same value for his 2010 Tour performance, where he bows to Brailsford's "win clean" mantra: 24th. Even that is an incredible effort, btw. But it's still an order of magnitude away from 4th or 1st.

I believe both the 2006 Dauphine prologue and 2010 Tour result were done clean.

Everything else from 2009 onwards was done doped. Brad is a top-20 (just) rider at the world level, at any distance, clean.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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I say 21st in 2006, but based on times, he needed 10% more power to win.

MatParker117 said:
2007 TdF Prologue 7.9 km TT 4th
Needing 12% more power to match 1st (Cancellara) - same improvement required as his 21st placing in 2006 Dauphine. In London. Home crowd advantage. etc.

MatParker117 said:
2007 Dauphine Prologue 4.2 km TT 1st
By 1 second. Christophe Moreau was 9 seconds slower, ie closer to Brad's time than Brad was to the winner's time in 2006, but Moreau went on to win overall.

I go into much more detail here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1035114&postcount=997
 
Sep 29, 2012
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MellowJohnny said:
Would Cancellara appear to be clean then?

Surely doping does not make a rider faster in a TT but helps them in the 2nd/3rd weeks of a major stage race?
Sprinters (track I mean) dope. Doping helps everywhere.

Brad was 75kg @ 5% bodyfat in 2007 - same stats as Cancellara. Cancellara is 4cm shorter.

In 2012 Brad loses 6kg and out-TTs everyone after defending the yellow jersey for 2 weeks straight; the longest yellow jersey defense in some 30 years.

One thing that has been niggling me when he finishes that TT is that he has plenty of energy to hold himself up off the aerobars and punch the air - almost as if he had something left in the tank. I've seen guys at the PT level finish TTs looking a lot more tired than Brad did. Granted, the other guys may have been acting, but empathically I think Brad's finish means he wasn't 100% spent.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
Only diehard Sky fans believe in Wiggins.
i believe in wiggins :S


would be interesting to know what armstrongs doping programme was in 2009 because he had a not great start, apart from the ttt and the peleton split, he wasnt good in the mountains untill the 3rd week..

I always though contador and amrstrong had the same doping supplier but armstrong was aided by johan and contador by his brother... I doubt the fellow supplying the drugs cared much about either of them as long as they paid well !
 
Sep 29, 2012
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palmerq said:
i believe in wiggins :S


would be interesting to know what armstrongs doping programme was in 2009 because he had a not great start, apart from the ttt and the peleton split, he wasnt good in the mountains untill the 3rd week..
!
Lance says he had no top end snap



and Ferrari explains it thus:



Personally, I think coming out of retirement from 3 years out of competitive cycling, at 38, and coming 3rd at the Tour in your first year back is definitive proof of a highly effective doping program.
 
So effective that Schumi was only ever worried about the Gunslinger, not the Schleckeries.

They didn't see anyone else coming, Stefano says something along the lines of "Thank you for putting that Garmin to the sword" after the stage to Le Grand Bornand. Bad blood?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Dear Wiggo said:
2006 Dauphine prologue. 4.1km TT. 21st.

I love the Internet and its glorious memory.
Does the internet and its glorious memory provide enough info to estimate power for Wiggo that day? This could be compared to his well-documented IP power outputs, which might shed some light on whether this 2006 performance was par or sub-par for Wiggo. He might have come 21st because he rode at his normal levels and everyone above him was doped to the eyeballs, or it might be because he rode below his normal levels that day.

The fact he conceded 6 seconds to O'Grady that day suggests something NOT. NORMAL. (just for you!) was happening, as O'Grady would have been lucky to avoid a drubbing had he done an IP against Wiggo in his 2004/2008 OG form. (O'Grady was always inferior to McGee in the IP, and Wiggo hammered McGee in the Athens IP, so there's a clear "form line" here.)

Note that this is completely unrelated to any potential for GT riding that might be deduced from Wiggo's IP performances. It is simply highlighting that there is something very odd about that 2006 prologue given O'Grady and Wiggo's relative finishing positions.
 
Aug 27, 2012
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Dear Wiggo said:
I love the Internet and its glorious memory.
Better be quick. It's being cleansed as we speak. Reputation.com.

Although this one hard to erase. And yes, I am a fan too. Always did like puzzles.
 
Aug 27, 2012
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Dear Wiggo said:
Personally, I think coming out of retirement from 3 years out of competitive cycling, at 38, and coming 3rd at the Tour in your first year back is definitive proof of a highly effective doping program.
Agreed. A 3 year gap at that age is hard/impossible to bridge. Not sure what he did in between but even if the training routine remained the racing fitness required for a GT is not something you can build easily in training (even with team mates). So yes amazing he even came 3rd.
 
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