Astana Licence to be withdrawn?

[pastronef]

UCI with a British president promoting "clean cycling" is still furious about an evil doper taking away the gold medal from hard working, marginally gaining British athletes.

British Cycling is like the sun. everything turns around it.

 

[Escarabajo]

Not if it is an excuse in PR. Banning Ben Johnson changed nothing in sprinting.

So what?

It was either yes or no, and they decided no. You wanted yes?

Remember that you have to make a decision within the legal terms, not based on your wildest thoghts!

 

[Escarabajo]

That would be a very serious step that could harm the entire WT system. Not sure the UCI would be willing to go for it. I'm sure they would compromise in some way.

It is more likely that RCS will pull Astana out not the other way around. Once Nibali and Aru find a new home or management, then everybody would be happy.

 

[Morbius]

We have been here before when Festina got kicked off the Tour and when Rabobank got kicked off the Tour. That really made teams look at risk-reward....

I'd need to check my facts, but Festina were kicked off the Tour by the ASO. Rabobank continued after they voluntarily removed Rasmussen. Not at all the same as what UCI are doing (or trying to do) to Astana.

 

[sniper]

So what?

It was either yes or no, and they decided no. You wanted yes?

Remember that you have to make a decision within the legal terms, not based on your wildest thoghts!

it's not very promising that Cookson, who knows what is going to be in the Circ report, is only lashing out at Astana.
It suggests the Circ report is going to be largely useless in terms of cleaning up cycling, with perhaps only Astana being thrown under the bus.

it's not very good news at all to those who were hoping more from Circ.

My guess is there won't be one single Germanic or Anglophone surprise in that report.

 

[Benotti69]

I'd need to check my facts, but Festina were kicked off the Tour by the ASO. Rabobank continued after they voluntarily removed Rasmussen. Not at all the same as what UCI are doing (or trying to do) to Astana.

UCI are trying play the PR game like all the other sporting federations who manage their doping problems very well. That is all.

Rabobank was voluntary are having their arm twisted behind their back and shoved off the TdF.

I do welcome Astana's licence being withdrawn but that doesn't stop anything. Nibs, Aru, Matinelli will all be back in a little while and nothing will have changed.

 

[markene2]

Okay....

Wild speculation:

There is actually a way to salvage this for all parts (exept Vino and a few others maybe)

If the licencse commission decides that there is no license it falls on Vino/management right?

So if they replace the management as a condition for obtaining licence then I know one guy who is ready to take over:
http://en.tengrinews.kz/sport/Kashechkin-needs-15-million-for-second-Kazakh-cycling-team-256848/

Kasheckin has been mingling at anti-doping conferences in Doha giving lectures with Froome personal doctor Stephane Bermon who is also board member of the IAAF...

UCI might have gone tough on doping but are they really ready to dish a dozen of stars and a major team earning them big bucks?

I don't know what the final solutuon will be but i think they will find a way of letting those boys race, however it will be without Vino as he is not a "fit and proper person..."

I would say it's not a wild speculation at all.. It's very likely that Kash would gain some role in the Astana Managment.. This is not about ending the Astana team, it's all about getting rid of Vino.

Kashechkin is the only other high profile rider that is not hired in someway at Astana. Martineli would never allow it though, they had a big falling out. Shefer could likely move up to a bigger role. But IMO Kashechkin is coming back in some way or another in managment at Astana when Vino is gone..

Unfortunatly for me, Vino will be gone. And it's a shame, why should Riis get a free pass, unless he talks to CIRC Tinkoff-Saxo are next up on the list...

 

[Benotti69]

So what?

So nothing changes.

It was either yes or no, and they decided no. You wanted yes?

I want change. This dont change a thing.

Remember that you have to make a decision within the legal terms, not based on your wildest thoghts!

Cookson could've made changes that effected real change in the sport. Going after a team from a region like Kazakhstan is really not going to change anything. Why is he not pursuing Lampre's licence? Why does Riis get off the hook?

All fluff for Cookson's superiors at IOC.

 

[sniper]

UCI are trying play the PR game like all the other sporting federations who manage their doping problems very well. That is all.

throwing Vino/Astana under the bus would certainly be a convenient way for Cookson to publicly validate an otherwise completely useless Circ report.

And we should bear in mind here that Astana isn't even leading the armsrace.

 

[Benotti69]

Isn't it always

Follow the money old bean.

 

[hrotha]

Not if it is an excuse in PR. Banning Ben Johnson changed nothing in sprinting.

It got rid of Ben Johnson.

Net dopers without that suspension: x
Net dopers with that suspension: x-1

x-1 < x

Hence it was better than the alternative. No it didn't fix track and field athletics, but you can't expect any single step to do that. And no, the authorities didn't really follow up or try to clean up the sport, but that doesn't mean the suspension itself wrong.

 

[Morbius]

it's not very promising that Cookson, who knows what is going to be in the Circ report, is only lashing out at Astana.
It suggests the Circ report is going to be largely useless in terms of cleaning up cycling, with perhaps only Astana being thrown under the bus.

it's not very good news at all to those who were hoping more from Circ.

My guess is there won't be one single Germanic or Anglophone surprise in that report.

Cookson is following a simple process on Astana. He set up an investigation, got the report and is now taking action.
CIRC is entirely separate. He set that up and will react to what is in the report.

Your guess may be right about the contents of the CIRC report, but that will be due to of the evidence (or lack of evidence) they were given.

 

[Roude Leiw]

And we should bear in mind here that Astana isn't even leading the armsrace.

That is a bold statement for a team who won the TdF in 2014 and who had an (at least for the casual cycling fan) breakthrough rider tearing up the other 2 GT, even if he did not finish first in the GC

 

[Benotti69]

That is a bold statement for a team who won the TdF in 2014 and who had an (at least for the casual cycling fan) breakthrough rider tearing up the other 2 GT, even if he did not finish first in the GC

Not really. Nibali's 2 major competitors crashed out of the race.

 

[Benotti69]

It got rid of Ben Johnson.

Net dopers without that suspension: x
Net dopers with that suspension: x-1

x-1 < x

Hence it was better than the alternative. No it didn't fix track and field athletics, but you can't expect any single step to do that. And no, the authorities didn't really follow up or try to clean up the sport, but that doesn't mean the suspension itself wrong.

Pedantics. One guy was hung out to dry. End off. There are loads of Ben Johnsons still running.

The idea that Cookson is making positive steps is laughable.

For Vino, Ferrari and Astana, we have Sutton, Leinders and Sky, Boonen, Ibaurguren and Q-Step, etc etc etc etc etc etc .............

 

[Roude Leiw]

Where is the good news? A team loses is licence but no one gets banned? So Nibali and Aru, 2 top riders will find teams and continue. The docs will get work, they won a TdF last year. I dont really see much change. Vino will still be a part of the sport, but like those banned just less in the public eye.

No this is not a victory for anti doping.

It don't think that it is that easy. Cycling has a lot of difficulties to find sponsors and a lot of those you may find (and not only in germany) will go away fast if confronted to doping. Doping is not accepted by the general public and bad PR, hence cycling is a bad investment for the sponsor. Try to pitch Nibali after the Astana ban holding up to a german or french (other than cofidis) sponsor who is really a corporate and not someone passionate who throws his money away, you won't find one

 

[Roude Leiw]

Not really. Nibali's 2 major competitors crashed out of the race.

Aru's too? ....

 

[Benotti69]

throwing Vino/Astana under the bus would certainly be a convenient way for Cookson to publicly validate an otherwise completely useless Circ report.

And we should bear in mind here that Astana isn't even leading the armsrace.

Absolument! Doping is still part of the fabric of the sport. Ferrari working away all this time proves that.

Cookson plays the PR game.

 

[staubsauger]

As much as I dislike Vino and his crappy behavior ( Not even the doping but especially the graft), I had hoped they would nail Riis first. Bjarne really is the cancer of cycling just like Armstong was. Vino is just a dubious guy.

I hope at least Aru isn't harmened by the Ferrari visitation. If not, actually this should be a worse situation for Nibal than for him.

Wasn't Mapei prepared to step-back into cycling a while ago? So was Fassa Bortolo it was rumored. Martinelli should've contacts as long as he isn't involved in the Ferrari matter.

LOL at those who are serious about Aru as a domestique. Sky (Italia) wants him as a leader. Giro + Vuelta leadership would be a given. He should negotiate a big paycheck and immediately sign for them!

 

[skippythepinhead]

I know how a number of people on here instinctively reacted by what they wrote - as summarised in my first post on this thread.

As Hitch says, everyone is free to react here as they wish. It is also reasonable to comment on that reaction.

Sure, I suppose, if this thread represented the sum total of reactions. However, many who are posting on this particular thread have already considered the possibility of this "news" in a greater context elsewhere--it is not reasonable to comment on these reactions without the background of proper context. Reactions you consider somehow "instinctive" may be consistent with previously expressed personal hierarchies. If you disagree, fine, but these reactions are not novel or new, and critiquing them in the absence of context is dishonest, or at least disingenuous. If you find a reaction inconsistent with what a poster has expressed elsewhere, feel free to point out the inconsistencies.

I do have to admit I am guilty of the same thing as you, in the sense that I have not researched your posts in other threads to determine if you are always a control freak. If so, then I am the hypocrite and you can ignore this and carry on with you being you--with my apologies.

 

[Benotti69]

It don't think that it is that easy. Cycling has a lot of difficulties to find sponsors and a lot of those you may find (and not only in germany) will go away fast if confronted to doping. Doping is not accepted by the general public and bad PR, hence cycling is a bad investment for the sponsor. Try to pitch Nibali after the Astana ban holding up to a german or french (other than cofidis) sponsor who is really a corporate and not someone passionate who throws his money away, you won't find one

So what. If you want a clean sport, burn it down and start again. Sponsors will flock to a clean sport where integrity is important to sponsors.

In this internet age trying to sweep stuff under the carpet is for the dinosaurs.

Ask anyone in the street which is a doping sport an 99.9% of people will say cycling. This idea that people think cycling got clean is a joke. The only people who think cycling is clean is those who have emotional connection with riders, fans of Wiggins, fans of Froome, Fans of Nibali. Heck most of Contadors fans dont think he is clean.

Sport is a dirty one. End of. That has not changed and will not with throwing 1 team under the bus.

 

[skippythepinhead]

So nothing changes.



I want change. This dont change a thing.



Cookson could've made changes that effected real change in the sport. Going after a team from a region like Kazakhstan is really not going to change anything. Why is he not pursuing Lampre's licence? Why does Riis get off the hook?

All fluff for Cookson's superiors at IOC.

Why didn't Leinders at Sky set off the kind of targeting that is (rightfully) bringing down Astana?

 

[Benotti69]

As much as I dislike Vino and his crappy behavior ( Not even the doping but especially the graft), I had hoped they would nail Riis first. Bjarne really is the cancer of cycling just like Armstong was. Vino is just a dubious guy.

I hope at least Aru isn't harmened by the Ferrari visitation. If not, actually this should be a worse situation for Nibal than for him.

Wasn't Mapei prepared to step-back into cycling a while ago? So was Fassa Bortolo it was rumored. Martinelli should've contacts as long as he isn't involved in the Ferrari matter.

LOL at those who are serious about Aru as a domestique. Sky (Italia) wants him as a leader. Giro + Vuelta leadership would be a given. He should negotiate a big paycheck and immediately sign for them!

Vino just playing the game same as everyone else. Heck if he was from Sussex he would be lauded by some on here..............

 

[pastronef]

Vino just playing the game same as everyone else. Heck if he was from Sussex he would be lauded by some on here..............

we don't agree very often Beno, but that's spot on

 

[skidmark]

It's hard for me to not think of this move as leverage to get rid of Vino and nothing more (other than a bit of grandstanding at an appropriate time to appear tough on doping). I think it's a positive step for cycling that this is going forward, even if it might have the effect of giving the subtextual message 'come on guys, you can't dope like this anymore, you have to be smarter'. Fill in whatever blanks you can with Sky and speculate about whatever they're doing that works, but the Astana system has like FIVE POSITIVES in the last year. They've halfheartedly distanced themselves from those 'individual' riders, but not vociferously enough to miss their own home race by asking for Iglinskiy's B-sample ASAP. Anyway, all I mean is that yeah, there are lots of problems in cycling, but this is the barf on your floor that you have to clean up before your houseguests come over, not the rats in the wall that you try not to listen too hard to and hope they're actually just other sounds. Cookson had to address this first because it's the most obvious and popular move.

Given his altered approach to broadcasting doping positives (the 'slip 'em in a report and let the press find them if they want to' approach rather than the McQuaid 'publicize loudly how hard you're working on anti-doping to silence uncomfortable questions' approach), I also can't help but speculate that Cookson is calculating that this is the path to follow to get ahead of the story (Padua, CIRC) so that he can say 'we've already eradicated some of the problems brought up here, guys!' to minimize the fallout/distract lazy press members from looking at harder questions. And, as far as the endgame goes, I think the UCI is walking a tightrope where they don't want to discourage sponsors and don't want to have the reputation for putting whole teams out of work mid-season, but also want to send a message that money and stable sponsorship won't protect you if you dope stupidly. Vino's at the center, with his problematic public history as a rider, and seems like the neatest target - it's not hard to imagine the message to the Astana sponsors as 'listen, get rid of him, some other problematic team managers, and pay a fine, and we're back to square 1'. The ball is in the Kazakh court.