Astana Licence to be withdrawn?

[simo1733]

If UCI withdraw's Astana's Pro Tour licence, does this mean they are also prohibited from pro continental?
Has a team ever been banned from the sport in mid season,either in cycling or any other pro sport?

 

[wrinklyvet]

Haha stupid UCI, it is much harder to take away a license than not giving it out in the first place. UCI has no legal ground and most likely zero chance to succeed in CAS.

Anyone who thinks this is somehow unfair on Astana (that their licence should be looked at by the Licence Commission) should re-read this http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-accused-of-systematic-doping as well as taking into account the positives.

 

[ray j willings]

Hypocritical bullsh#t as usual. Another desperate UCI "lets show the media we are tough on the war of drugs" witch-hunt.
Astana are an easy target because they are rubbish at doping.
I think it would be much better if the UCI showed the teams the most effective way to dope and we could avoid all this schnizzzel

 

[rhubroma]

Haha stupid UCI, it is much harder to take away a license than not giving it out in the first place. UCI has no legal ground and most likely zero chance to succeed in CAS.

This seems like a valid point. Why on earth would the UCI, beyond the usually putting up a facade of "being serious about anti-doping" and an "image saver" for having conceded Astana a liscense in the first place, risk throwing an already disorderly and tried sport, into the throes of utter chaos.

This governing body seems bent on the sport's suicide.

Either Astana should not have been given a liscense, or given a liscense period. This provisory conduct bs is just that, bs, and a strategical boomerang for the UCI.

 

[The Hitch]

Hypocritical bullsh#t as usual. Another desperate UCI "lets show the media we are tough on the war of drugs" witch-hunt.
Astana are an easy target because they are rubbish at doping.
I think it would be much better if the UCI showed the teams the most effective way to dope and we could avoid all this schnizzzel

How are Astana an easy target?

 

[The Hitch]

Uhm Zinoviev Letter read the original post you replied to again.

"Kittel calling out nobodies for doping"

You reply "the same kittel who called out Indurain, Sanchez etc etc"
Yes, he called them out but not for doping, which is what several posters are trying to tell you.

Thanks flo. Good post.
makes the post below funny to read. I said kittel only calls out nobodies for doping. Zl shifts the goalposts to include any kind of criticism. Then when someone tries to go back to the original point he accuses them of shifting goalposts.

I really do love these ever shifting goal posts. Now it isn't enough to call riders out, nor to call high profile riders out, nor, we can only assume, would it be enough to call out every big name rider. The calling out has to be done on the basis of approved "that looks too fast to me" methodology too, or it doesn't count.

"not jumping on the bandwagon" is a particularly lovely bit of phraseology, by the way. Why I dare say, we could come to the conclusion that Contador, Sanchez and Indurain were taking a brave stand against prevailing opinion. Perhaps even heroic.

 

[happytramp]

Hypocritical bullsh#t as usual. Another desperate UCI "lets show the media we are tough on the war of drugs" witch-hunt.
Astana are an easy target because they are rubbish at doping.
I think it would be much better if the UCI showed the teams the most effective way to dope and we could avoid all this schnizzzel

Way to perfectly illustrate the "UCI can't win no matter what they do" point.

 

[Benotti69]

Way to perfectly illustrate the "UCI can't win no matter what they do" point.

They can win the war against doping. They dont want to fight doping. They want to manage it. A massive difference.

 

[happytramp]

They can win the war against doping. They dont want to fight doping. They want to manage it. A massive difference.

Yeah but when people start calling out the UCI for going after 'soft target's like Astana' then you know something's gone wrong.

 

[Benotti69]

Yeah but when people start calling out the UCI for going after 'soft target's like Astana' then you know something's gone wrong.

Astana were 10th best team in the WT for 2014. Yep that is soft as there are 9 stronger teams above them.

UCI did no work to catch Astana, all done by Italian authorities so yes, they barely had to do anything except wring their hands and curse at Astana and Ferrari for not being smarter about hiding their program.

 

[mrhender]

This seems like a valid point. Why on earth would the UCI, beyond the usually putting up a facade of "being serious about anti-doping" and an "image saver" for having conceded Astana a liscense in the first place, risk throwing an already disorderly and tried sport, into the throes of utter chaos.

This governing body seems bent on the sport's suicide.

Either Astana should not have been given a liscense, or given a liscense period. This provisory conduct bs is just that, bs, and a strategical boomerang for the UCI.

I suspect the UCI aims to exchange leadership in the team rather than having it fold... There has been talks of Katusha folding after this year and I doubt anyone considers Tinkoff anything but a fragile sponsorship due to his lose cannon persona...

Therefore I think they have every interest in finding a solution to keep the team going in some way or form.

Bottom line UCI may have been forced to act, but then again one could argue that they learned from the katusha scandal and has been very thorough as well as strategically undertaking a step by step diminishment of the Astana managements legitimacy..

Right now it all seems as one big mess, but I am open to the possibility that they are working behind the scenes to secure a deal in which the team can continue and that the teams future will be ensured without Vinokourov.

With the upcoming CIRC report i susect it will put even more pressure on Vino and force the hand of the sponsor to chose between him and a Pro-tour team..

What then happens I dunno.. Vino in many ways personifies Astana and the sponsor might pull the plug as a result of this, but then again the interests and stakes might be bigger than Vino..

As for being PR then every anti-doping effort done by UCI can fairly be seen as such, however it can be that they are actually attempting to do some good as well, and both can go hand in hand regardless of the obvious fact that every action they take should be considered in the context of their historical dubiousness.
The UCI has a long wat to go to earn trust, and in this case we should follow closely how/if this is a first step to more rigourus rules in terms of obtaining license for all teams.. If they fail to build upon this fragile momentum as well as shattering the WT then Cookson is playing a dangerous game...

 

[Red Rick]

We're talking about the same Kittel guy who had his blood treated with UV light right?

 

[The Hitch]

Astana were 10th best team in the WT for 2014. Yep that is soft as there are 9 stronger teams above them.

UCI did no work to catch Astana, all done by Italian authorities so yes, they barely had to do anything except wring their hands and curse at Astana and Ferrari for not being smarter about hiding their program.

That's like saying Rodriguez had a stronger season in 2013 than Froome because he won the WT

Astana won the Tour. That's worth far more than some senseless ranking system.

BTW i do see some irony in slandering the UCI as ineffective but using to promote your argument a ranking system created and organized by the very same UCI.

 

[ray j willings]

How are Astana an easy target?

All those doping bust's come to mind?

Does it even matter anymore? I don't care, their all at it.
This will have as much effect as all the previous scandals of busting teams/ riders etc . In the end it will not stop riders taking PED's.
Its a waste of time and money and hypocritical arS? Gas.

 

[skippythepinhead]

Anyone who thinks this is somehow unfair on Astana (that their licence should be looked at by the Licence Commission) should re-read this http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-accused-of-systematic-doping as well as taking into account the positives.

I will wager you have full faith Putin wil root out Nemtsov's killers too.

 

[maxmartin]

Anyone who thinks this is somehow unfair on Astana (that their licence should be looked at by the Licence Commission) should re-read this http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-accused-of-systematic-doping as well as taking into account the positives.

It is not unfair, it is just stupid UCI to make itself to climb an uphill legal battle in the CAS hearing by awarding Astana license in the first place. And I see UCI has nearly zero chance to win if Astana decides to appeal in the CAS.

 

[Benotti69]

That's like saying Rodriguez had a stronger season in 2013 than Froome because he won the WT

Astana won the Tour. That's worth far more than some senseless ranking system.

I dont think Astana put all their eggs into the TdF basket like Sky or Saxo. Vino is too long in the tooth to discount the value of monuments and classics.

BTW i do see some irony in slandering the UCI as ineffective but using to promote your argument a ranking system created and organized by the very same UCI.

the irony is so low that your sensors are tuned too high.

 

[hfer07]

Anyone who thinks this is somehow unfair on Astana (that their licence should be looked at by the Licence Commission) should re-read this http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-accused-of-systematic-doping as well as taking into account the positives.

The positives came BEFORE the license was granted-therefore it should have been revoked then & not after being accepted & when the season begins. This issue only highlights again how incompetent is the UCI on doping matters

 

[neineinei]

It is not unfair, it is just stupid UCI to make itself to climb an uphill legal battle in the CAS hearing by awarding Astana license in the first place. And I see UCI has nearly zero chance to win if Astana decides to appeal in the CAS.

Not awarding Astana license wouldn't mean UCI wouldn't be dragged to CAS. This was always going to CAS. UCI knew all too well how not to do it, they learned from not giving Katusha the lisence only to have CAS overturn it. Now UCI has thightened their regulations, they have the independent report (paid by Astana) to substansiate the claims of wrongdoings, and they also have Padova evidence to slap Astana with. Astana is done. It's over. Goodbye Vino.

The only real questions is what will happen to the womens team, and will continental team Vino4ever get to keep their name?

 

[wrinklyvet]

I will wager you have full faith Putin wil root out Nemtsov's killers too.

If you think this remark, in the context of my post, has any relevance, you are clutching at straws. I am not having anything to do with Russian politics and they are not relevant here. Insulting other posters like me or their intelligence with this tripe will not advance any argument here.

 

[The Hitch]

I dont think Astana put all their eggs into the TdF basket like Sky or Saxo. Vino is too long in the tooth to discount the value of monuments and classics.

What's that got to do with anything. You said uci picked on an easy target because they finished 9th in uci ranking. Doesn't matter how highly vino rates or doesn't rate classics, they won the tdf which makes them a massive team, not a small one.

 

[wrinklyvet]

It is not unfair, it is just stupid UCI to make itself to climb an uphill legal battle in the CAS hearing by awarding Astana license in the first place. And I see UCI has nearly zero chance to win if Astana decides to appeal in the CAS.

The UCI has played a subtle hand this time. They have gone about it a different way. It is initially up to the Licence Commission, not the UCI as such. I am not predicting the ultimate outcome. We'll see. I am saying that anyone who is surprised at how this is playing out so far has no entitlement to that position.

 

[maxmartin]

The UCI has played a subtle hand this time. They have gone about it a different way. It is initially up to the Licence Commission, not the UCI as such. I am not predicting the ultimate outcome. We'll see. I am saying that anyone who is surprised at how this is playing out so far has no entitlement to that position.

No one is surprised (at least I am not) because UCI has proved time and time again that it is capable of doing any stupid stunt. It seems to me UCI can never learn any mistakes it has made in the past.

 

[wrinklyvet]

No one is surprised (at least I am not) because UCI has proved time and time again that it is capable of doing any stupid stunt. It seems to me UCI can never learn any mistakes it has made in the past.

As I said, I believe the UCI has waited until it can use more information against Astana than it previously had available. This distinguishes it from the position when the licence was renewed. it is also somewhat different from the Katusha case.

As I also said, I am not predicting the outcome but it will at the very least put pressure on Astana to change in some way.

If Astana can show that it is genuinely working on this, as Katusha in its appeal managed to persuade CAS was the case, Astana may largely escape with a big fright, as Katusha did. Those who don't remember the ins and outs of that case may view http://inrng.com/2013/05/katushas-cas-clash/ and see the basis (in relation to the doping issues) that worked in Katusha's favour.

Cookson was accused of being soft in the Astana case. Well it's not true now. But the decision is now with the Licence Commission, not him. The outcome depends on them and on whether they use the issue just to tighten up or whether they would seek to revoke the licence. And then, as you indicate, it could be a matter for CAS if Astana thinks fit.

I am glad you agree that nobody should be surprised to see where this has gone so far, but whether it's a "stupid stunt" is a matter of opinion and I just don't happen to share it.

Anyway, I've expressed my view and it's time for bed. In the morning, if the weather is fit, I am cycling. Cheerio!

 

[maxmartin]

As I said, I believe the UCI has waited until it can use more information against Astana than it previously had available. This distinguishes it from the position when the licence was renewed. it is also somewhat different from the Katusha case.

As I also said, I am not predicting the outcome but it will at the very least put pressure on Astana to change in some way.

If Astana can show that it is genuinely working on this, as Katusha in its appeal managed to persuade CAS was the case, Astana may largely escape with a big fright, as Katusha did. Those who don't remember the ins and outs of that case may view http://inrng.com/2013/05/katushas-cas-clash/ and see the basis (in relation to the doping issues) that worked in Katusha's favour.

Cookson was accused of being soft in the Astana case. Well it's not true now. But the decision is now with the Licence Commission, not him. The outcome depends on them and on whether they use the issue just to tighten up or whether they would seek to revoke the licence. And then, as you indicate, it could be a matter for CAS if Astana thinks fit.

I am glad you agree that nobody should be surprised to see where this has gone so far, but whether it's a "stupid stunt" is a matter of opinion and I just don't happen to share it.

Anyway, I've expressed my view and it's time for bed. In the morning, if the weather is fit, I am cycling. Cheerio!

But now the license is already given out and the season already started, it literally made Astana a victim in the eyes of the court. Where would Astana riders, directors and employees go, because they already relied on this license to organize the season? There are no spots on the other world tour teams. It is much harder to void a contact than not having a contract in the first place especially when the term of the contract has already started.

I would imagine Astana lawyers will have all sorts of easy arguments in the CAS such as "reliance estoppel", "equity estoppel." What UCI should do is to cut Astana loose at the end of the season if it feels it is justified. In this case, both parties will have ample time to appeal and the CAS will not particularly sympathize Astana.