ASTHMA INHALERS

[python]

Re:

....sorry to barge in but I have a question...

....just prior to my last season of racing , after some discussion with my GP, went to get checked out for asthma....well I got a Gold Star in the asthma sweepstakes and was put on some puffers, Salbutamol and Ventolin (?)....and gosh these things proved awesome....breathing and racing really go well together, they really do....

....so here is the question....I did lose significant weight quicker relative to other seasons of racing ( ended up slightly less than normal but got there real quick )....now was that because the intensity of training was higher, which it most definitely was...or was it just a response to the chemicals...or put another way would a couch potato lose weight if he were given puffers....

Cheers

let me take your post as soon as i saw it and ignore the fluffier i should and will...

as far as i understand the subject of weight management, it is ALWAYS about a balance of calories in and out. regardless of the internal or external factors affecting the balance. say, 3000 cal in due to food and 3500 out due to training and you are set to lose a pound of fat over a week.

now we are onto how a medication you apparently were diagnosed to need for a genuine health condition, an asthma. the salbutamol, same as ventolin...directly to your question, how the medication was likely to affect your weight ? my response that follows is an immediate recollection of the various salbutamol properties, so i would not pretend to be exhaustive nor conclusive.

salbutamol is a b-agonist. a relative of a class of substances (both indigenous and exogenous) called sympathomimetics..they include adrenalin, coffee, ephedrine etc. all these substances have been noted for promoting fat burning. iow, when you are training at a given intensity you'd supposedly be burning more own fat in the presence of the substances as opposed to being free of them. that's a direct contribution to one's long term endurance (sparing the glycogen as an energy substrate) and eventually, if the sympathomimetic was acting long enough, changing the muscle to fat ratio in a given body. that's why some scientist believe that salbutamol can be anabolic, that is building the muscles, though, as i tried to explain, it is quite different from the direct muscle stimulating effects of testosterone and anabolic steroids.

here's the crucial twist. as i noted above, all these effects on the weight, fat metabolism etc are contingent up on the drug being in one's systemic circulation in sufficient amounts.. that is, if you used a salbutamol puffer as prescribed for the asthma condition it is NOT supposed to absorb beyond the local area it was intended to affect. that is, the smooth muscle of the lungs. the mechanism of action - or a relief - is the relaxation of the lung muscles, thus preventing their choking of the air pipes when under an asthma stress trying to constrict.

so, if the salbutamol dose inhaled was in acccess of its local biologic function - that is relaxing the smooth muscles in the lungs and pipes - it gets into the circulation. or into your blood where it can be delivered to other sites like the adipose tissue (fat), muscles even brain...with all the theoretical effects i covered above.

thus the abuse of the legit medication in sports.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

....sorry to barge in but I have a question...

....just prior to my last season of racing , after some discussion with my GP, went to get checked out for asthma....well I got a Gold Star in the asthma sweepstakes and was put on some puffers, Salbutamol and Ventolin (?)....and gosh these things proved awesome....breathing and racing really go well together, they really do....

....so here is the question....I did lose significant weight quicker relative to other seasons of racing ( ended up slightly less than normal but got there real quick )....now was that because the intensity of training was higher, which it most definitely was...or was it just a response to the chemicals...or put another way would a couch potato lose weight if he were given puffers....

Cheers

I've suffered from asthma since I was a wee lad. I've gone through good periods and bad periods, each lasting several years, where I'm either relying heavily on Salbutamol and a cortico-steroid or I might only reach for my puffer a couple of times per year.

My personal observation is that using Salbutamol, especially when riding/racing, is like making your nervous system ring like it was a bell. Definitely not an adrenaline rush or a coffee high, but jittery accompanied by an increased heart rate. You become desensitized if you use it often enough. But overall it's terrible. One spring race I dropped out after reaching for my fourth puff. I wasn't responding quickly enough (takes a bit of time) and even that moderate dose made me feel bad enough to climb off for the day once the full effect hit.

With Salbutamol and/or cortico-steroids, I've never experienced any weight loss or performance changes. Probably because the dosages are quite minimal. This is very different from a systemic steroid injection like what Wiggins had. It's the difference between drinking a pint of beer and drinking a bottle of scotch.

My son, when he was two, had an asthma attack and wasn't responding to Salbutamol. Off to the hospital. He was given 5 puffs of Salbutamol every ten minutes until stabilized. Then and only then was he given an injection similar to what Wiggins got. That's the only time that anyone I've known has gotten an injection for asthma. And by that point the doctors were looking concerned.

Of course, this is only one anecdote.

John Swanson

 

[Cycle Chic]

^^^ but you have asthma. The effect must be quite different if you do not...i.e. who knows if Wiggins etc really have asthma.

 

[deviant]

If you don't have asthma then Ventolin does *** all.

For asthmatics it dilates constricted airways back to where they should be, anybody clueless enough to think a puff of Salbutamol/ventolin suddenly gives you the lung capacity of an Ox is living in fantasy land, there are thermogenic/weight loss benefits but Eph, Clen etc are all better.

Sometimes it feels the Clinic is clutching at straws.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Re:

If you don't have asthma then Ventolin does *** all.

For asthmatics it dilates constricted airways back to where they should be, anybody clueless enough to think a puff of Salbutamol/ventolin suddenly gives you the lung capacity of an Ox is living in fantasy land, there are thermogenic/weight loss benefits but Eph, Clen etc are all better.

Sometimes it feels the Clinic is clutching at straws.

so you dont think its highly suspicious that top athletes all seem to need an asthma inhaler ?

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

If you don't have asthma then Ventolin does *** all.

For asthmatics it dilates constricted airways back to where they should be, anybody clueless enough to think a puff of Salbutamol/ventolin suddenly gives you the lung capacity of an Ox is living in fantasy land, there are thermogenic/weight loss benefits but Eph, Clen etc are all better.

Sometimes it feels the Clinic is clutching at straws.

so you dont think its highly suspicious that top athletes all seem to need an asthma inhaler ?

If they don't have asthma and they're using it soley as a PED, they're getting no ergogenic benefit. The Kindermann meta-analysis published in 07 states that inhaled beta-agonists are non-performance enhancing and have no ergogenic effects. Here's the abstract of the study:

>Sports Med. 2007;37(2):95-102.

Do inhaled beta(2)-agonists have an ergogenic potential in non-asthmatic competitive athletes?

Kindermann W1.

Author information

Abstract

The prevalence of asthma is higher in elite athletes than in the general population. The risk of developing asthmatic symptoms is the highest in endurance athletes and swimmers. Asthma seems particularly widespread in winter-sport athletes such as cross-country skiers. Asthmatic athletes commonly use inhaled beta(2)-agonists to prevent and treat asthmatic symptoms. However, beta(2)-agonists are prohibited according to the Prohibited List of the World Anti-Doping Agency. An exception can be made only for the substances formoterol, salbutamol, salmeterol and terbutaline by inhalation, as long as a therapeutic use exemption has been applied for and granted. In this context, the question arises of whether beta(2)-agonists have ergogenic benefits justifying the prohibition of these substances. In 17 of 19 randomised placebo-controlled trials in non-asthmatic competitive athletes, performance-enhancing effects of the inhaled beta(2)-agonists formoterol, salbutamol, salmeterol and terbutaline could not be proved. This is particularly true for endurance performance, anaerobic power and strength performance. In three of four studies, even supratherapeutic doses of salbutamol (800-1200 microg) had no ergogenic effect. In contrast to inhaled beta(2)-agonists, oral administration of salbutamol seems to be able to improve the muscle strength and the endurance performance. There appears to be no justification to prohibit inhaled beta(2)-agonists from the point of view of the ergogenic effects.

So, perhaps it's more of a placebo effect that non-asthamtic athletes think they're getting? Here's an interesting study on the placebo effect on sports performance with athletes:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.2165/00007256-200939040-00004

 

[sniper]

FWIW, I am not asthmatic, but I took a few puffs (2-4) of salbutamol a few times before playing soccer.
It may just have been a placebo effect, but it did seem to help me breath, albeit just a little bit, although the benefits definitely weren't spectacular either.
I'm guessing the quality of the air you breathe plays a role, as do individual physical parameters. Maybe even individual psychololgical parameters (placebo effect yes/no).

 

[Nomad]

Re:

FWIW, I am not asthmatic, but I took a few puffs (2-4) of salbutamol a few times before playing soccer.
It may just have been a placebo effect, but it did seem to help me breath, albeit just a little bit, although the benefits definitely weren't spectacular either.
I'm guessing the quality of the air you breathe plays a role, as do individual physical parameters. Maybe even individual psychololgical parameters (placebo effect yes/no).

Maybe you have a mild form of EIA? I was diagnosed a couple of decades ago with severe allergies (including animal dander) and EIA. I also live and train in a very large metropolitan area with a top 15 pollution rating out of major US cities. I know on high pollution days (which are many) my asthma symptoms are exacerbated significantly, and my symptoms seem to be getting worse as I get older. I have to use both albuterol & a corticosteroid inhaler. My allergy specialist has said he's seeing more athletes, particulary younger ones, than ever before with asthma & respiratory problems. I would imagine air quality is a major factor with those athletes that live & train in or near large metro areas.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

FWIW, I am not asthmatic, but I took a few puffs (2-4) of salbutamol a few times before playing soccer.
It may just have been a placebo effect, but it did seem to help me breath, albeit just a little bit, although the benefits definitely weren't spectacular either.
I'm guessing the quality of the air you breathe plays a role, as do individual physical parameters. Maybe even individual psychololgical parameters (placebo effect yes/no).

Maybe you have a mild form of EIA? I was diagnosed a couple of decades ago with severe allergies (including animal dander) and EIA. I also live and train in a very large metropolitan area with a top 15 pollution rating out of major US cities. I know on high pollution days (which are many) my asthma symptoms are exacerbated significantly, and my symptoms seem to be getting worse as I get older. I have to use both albuterol & a corticosteroid inhaler. My allergy specialist has said he's seeing more athletes, particulary younger ones, than ever before with asthma & respiratory problems. I would imagine air quality is a major factor with those athletes that live & train in or near large metro areas.

I don't think I have EIA, tbh. I have no symptoms that I know of, well besides the fact that my stamina has been going backwards in the past two years.

But my city is very polluted, too. Mainly by car gasses.
Ever since I moved here (indeed, about two years ago), I noticed my stamina going backwards. First I thought it was just age kicking in.
But then I heard from different people who had migrated here that they too are noticing breathing problems ever since they moved here, and one guy recommended I try salbutamol. He said it really helps him, but then again that guy is really suffering from EIA.

I got a prescription and am now sort of in my personal trial phase.
I think I am noticing some benefits, albeit minor (not as much as this guy had made me hope for), and they could be placebo effect.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

FWIW, I am not asthmatic, but I took a few puffs (2-4) of salbutamol a few times before playing soccer.
It may just have been a placebo effect, but it did seem to help me breath, albeit just a little bit, although the benefits definitely weren't spectacular either.
I'm guessing the quality of the air you breathe plays a role, as do individual physical parameters. Maybe even individual psychololgical parameters (placebo effect yes/no).

Maybe you have a mild form of EIA? I was diagnosed a couple of decades ago with severe allergies (including animal dander) and EIA. I also live and train in a very large metropolitan area with a top 15 pollution rating out of major US cities. I know on high pollution days (which are many) my asthma symptoms are exacerbated significantly, and my symptoms seem to be getting worse as I get older. I have to use both albuterol & a corticosteroid inhaler. My allergy specialist has said he's seeing more athletes, particulary younger ones, than ever before with asthma & respiratory problems. I would imagine air quality is a major factor with those athletes that live & train in or near large metro areas.

I don't think I have EIA, tbh. I have no symptoms that I know of, well besides the fact that my stamina has been going backwards in the past two years.

But my city is very polluted, too. Mainly by car gasses.
Ever since I moved here (indeed, about two years ago), I noticed my stamina going backwards. First I thought it was just age kicking in.
But then I heard from different people who had migrated here that they too are noticing breathing problems ever since they moved here, and one guy recommended I try salbutamol. He said it really helps him, but then again that guy is really suffering from EIA.

I got a prescription and am now sort of in my personal trial phase.
I think I am noticing some benefits, albeit minor (not as much as this guy had made me hope for), and they could be placebo effect.

Airborne particulates cause lung inflammation. A google search will tell you everything you could ever want to know about the subject. So even if you don't have EIA, you might still experience asthma-like symptoms and get relief from using Salbutamol. Especially if you exercise in a polluted environment.

Bottom line is that beta-agonists like Salbutamol can recover impaired lung function, but they can't improve upon your baseline condition. Your natural lung function is what it is. So recovering from even mild symptoms seems like a legitimate reason to take something Salbutamol. There are mild, temporary side affects which would prevent most people from taking them if they don't need them.

Basically, at therapeutic dosages, Salbutamol isn't a PED. It does provide relief when needed though. Considering the fact that cyclists do an insane amount of cardiovascular exercise mere feet away from car exhaust, I'm not surprised that so many have "asthma". In fact, I would expect that many cyclists, like you, don't realize that they have minor impairment of lung function and could benefit from an inhaler. Again, not a PED.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Cheers John, thanks for expanding. Sounds plausible.

 

[DanielSong39]

My guess is that "asthma inhaler" is just another way to administer performance enhancing drugs, but that's just a guess.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

you expressed a general doubt of a very concrete information provided for the benefit of other posters. in fact appreciated by some posters. your doubt was expressed in a mocking way. back up your claims, clarify them or change the the tone to a genuine discussion voice.

until then, you cant count on anyone discussing seriously with you a science subject you never showed a proficiency in. besides, i have some evidence you have a reading comprehension issues with subjects far removed from science.

I would also like to see the proof of your claim that the studies were outdated. A scientist should be able to back up their claims with evidence.

 

[python]

you disqualified yourself from a serious discussion..it is rather obvious. your puerile inputs, personal attacks on the other posters sci quals - like blutto, for ex - plus the the ad hominems in the political threads make this rather late request a suspect.

but, if any other poster, except the one faking an interest after being exposed TODAY in, sorry folks, in a politics threads, yes TODAY, having been silent for weeks, then any good faith request will be granted with enthusiasm.
my apologies for ignoring the fake concerns...

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

....sorry to barge in but I have a question...

....just prior to my last season of racing , after some discussion with my GP, went to get checked out for asthma....well I got a Gold Star in the asthma sweepstakes and was put on some puffers, Salbutamol and Ventolin (?)....and gosh these things proved awesome....breathing and racing really go well together, they really do....

....so here is the question....I did lose significant weight quicker relative to other seasons of racing ( ended up slightly less than normal but got there real quick )....now was that because the intensity of training was higher, which it most definitely was...or was it just a response to the chemicals...or put another way would a couch potato lose weight if he were given puffers....

Cheers

I've suffered from asthma since I was a wee lad. I've gone through good periods and bad periods, each lasting several years, where I'm either relying heavily on Salbutamol and a cortico-steroid or I might only reach for my puffer a couple of times per year.

My personal observation is that using Salbutamol, especially when riding/racing, is like making your nervous system ring like it was a bell. Definitely not an adrenaline rush or a coffee high, but jittery accompanied by an increased heart rate. You become desensitized if you use it often enough. But overall it's terrible. One spring race I dropped out after reaching for my fourth puff. I wasn't responding quickly enough (takes a bit of time) and even that moderate dose made me feel bad enough to climb off for the day once the full effect hit.

With Salbutamol and/or cortico-steroids, I've never experienced any weight loss or performance changes. Probably because the dosages are quite minimal. This is very different from a systemic steroid injection like what Wiggins had. It's the difference between drinking a pint of beer and drinking a bottle of scotch.

My son, when he was two, had an asthma attack and wasn't responding to Salbutamol. Off to the hospital. He was given 5 puffs of Salbutamol every ten minutes until stabilized. Then and only then was he given an injection similar to what Wiggins got. That's the only time that anyone I've known has gotten an injection for asthma. And by that point the doctors were looking concerned.

Of course, this is only one anecdote.

John Swanson

I too have noticed the effect on the heart and also how shaky your hands can get. Interestingly the last time I purchased Ventolin, the pharmacist warned about the drug making me shaky or trembling hands which no one mentioned before. As far as the weight loss goes in non asthmatics that are elite athletes it is documented but as others have stated there are better drugs for that. For asthmatics I went through periods using a lot of Ventolin like the maximum recommended dosage for long periods and never noticed any weight changes at all even when I was training regularly but of course elite athletes don't have much fat to burn anyway so I guess that any loss in weight would be worthwhile for them when the margins are small to begin with at the top end of sport. Ventolin is one of the most misused legal drugs around. Not only do many people use it incorrectly, many of them have not even been diagnosed with asthma. You see smokers use Ventolin after smoking sometimes as if that is any sort of solution for them.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

you disqualified yourself from a serious discussion..it is rather obvious. your puerile inputs, personal attacks on the other posters sci quals - like blutto, for ex - plus the the ad hominems in the political threads make this rather late request a suspect.

but, if any other poster, except the one faking an interest after being exposed TODAY in, sorry folks, in a politics threads, yes TODAY, having been silent for weeks, then any good faith request will be granted with enthusiasm.
my apologies for ignoring the fake concerns...

So.... you have no evidence. Duly noted.

 

[python]

you trolling yet another good thread with the same pathetic nonsense. keep it where people got to laugh at you, the politics.

 

[djpbaltimore]

If you don't have the evidence and your opinion was based on nothing, just admit it and move along. Two people have asked for it and you have stonewalled. If you want to have a scientific discussion about the studies, let's do it. Deflecting is not doing you any favors.

 

[python]

i dont discuss nor feed trolls. your 'input' made it very obvious. and i made it very obvious. get back to a thread where only a lazy did not ridicule you.

everyone is pretty clear why you suddenly appeared here :lol:

 

[djpbaltimore]

Whatever reason I have to be here is an existential question that is not fit for this thread. However, what my presence has further demonstrated is that your scientific credentials are deeply flawed. It is not hard to link studies. I have done so repeatedly in clinic threads to make my points.

 

[python]

Re: Re:

....sorry to barge in but I have a question...

....just prior to my last season of racing , after some discussion with my GP, went to get checked out for asthma....well I got a Gold Star in the asthma sweepstakes and was put on some puffers, Salbutamol and Ventolin (?)....and gosh these things proved awesome....breathing and racing really go well together, they really do....

....so here is the question....I did lose significant weight quicker relative to other seasons of racing ( ended up slightly less than normal but got there real quick )....now was that because the intensity of training was higher, which it most definitely was...or was it just a response to the chemicals...or put another way would a couch potato lose weight if he were given puffers....

Cheers

I've suffered from asthma since I was a wee lad. I've gone through good periods and bad periods, each lasting several years, where I'm either relying heavily on Salbutamol and a cortico-steroid or I might only reach for my puffer a couple of times per year.

My personal observation is that using Salbutamol, especially when riding/racing, is like making your nervous system ring like it was a bell. Definitely not an adrenaline rush or a coffee high, but jittery accompanied by an increased heart rate. You become desensitized if you use it often enough. But overall it's terrible. One spring race I dropped out after reaching for my fourth puff. I wasn't responding quickly enough (takes a bit of time) and even that moderate dose made me feel bad enough to climb off for the day once the full effect hit.

With Salbutamol and/or cortico-steroids, I've never experienced any weight loss or performance changes. Probably because the dosages are quite minimal. This is very different from a systemic steroid injection like what Wiggins had. It's the difference between drinking a pint of beer and drinking a bottle of scotch.

My son, when he was two, had an asthma attack and wasn't responding to Salbutamol. Off to the hospital. He was given 5 puffs of Salbutamol every ten minutes until stabilized. Then and only then was he given an injection similar to what Wiggins got. That's the only time that anyone I've known has gotten an injection for asthma. And by that point the doctors were looking concerned.

Of course, this is only one anecdote.

John Swanson

I too have noticed the effect on the heart and also how shaky your hands can get. Interestingly the last time I purchased Ventolin, the pharmacist warned about the drug making me shaky or trembling hands which no one mentioned before. As far as the weight loss goes in non asthmatics that are elite athletes it is documented but as others have stated there are better drugs for that. For asthmatics I went through periods using a lot of Ventolin like the maximum recommended dosage for long periods and never noticed any weight changes at all even when I was training regularly but of course elite athletes don't have much fat to burn anyway so I guess that any loss in weight would be worthwhile for them when the margins are small to begin with at the top end of sport. Ventolin is one of the most misused legal drugs around. Not only do many people use it incorrectly, many of them have not even been diagnosed with asthma. You see smokers use Ventolin after smoking sometimes as if that is any sort of solution for them.

as indicated i am going to ignore the troll and his faking an interest...he. must be too misarable b/c several posters independently questioned his scientific chest thumping. those interested go to the politics thread....

good points, movingtarget...i don't have an asthma, so i cant say anything personal about the side effects, but i did hear about the heart problems and shaky hands. 2 of my sisters have asthma. the above mentioned side effects are a direct consequence of what i pointed to earlier - some amount of salbutamol reached circulation and spread beyond the locally intended site (lungs). since salbutamol is essentially a stimulant, it can effect the cardiac muscle as well as any other muscles. a similar trembling can be caused by an overdoze of coffee, for instance, a weak stimulant.

also, it is pretty well documented that if used too close to one's bedtime, the medication can interfere with sleep. the salbutamol is supected to play a role in arrhythmias. interestingly, the norwegian xc skier sundby (he just was caught overdosing - see the xc thread) was never publicly know to have heart problems. but when busted, he admitted during the cas hearing that his doctor told him to stop all salbutamol during the treatment of his heart. it's very regretable that wada guidance on the b-agonist allows the drug abuse by the healthy while allowing the unnecessary suspicion of those who truly need the medication. according to one swedish researcher
the wada allowed 1600 mg per day is still a huge dose. no wonder it gets systemic...

 

[djpbaltimore]

The lungs are perfused by 100% of the blood. Inhaling things is a pretty easy way to get into the circulatory system. Basic physiology.