At what point do you walk away?

[flicker]

The difference is one is a 'recreational drug', usually taken for sh*ts and giggles - the other is a Performance Enhancing Drug, taken to enhance performance in sport that gives a distinct advantage over those who do not wish to do so.

I disagree. Dope is dope whether it is marijuana, coke or Peds.
To me it is the same thing.
I do not hate Keith R., Clapton or Santana.
Otherwise we are hypocrites.

Take for instance Ulrich,Kloeden and Vino in the 2000 Olympics 123 I do not hate them.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Here lies the conundrum of doping in cycling. The vociferous and righteous advocates of clean cycling believe that they are doing cycling, themselves, and the rest of us, a great service by protesting to the highest levels and demanding retribution against those accused offenders. Are they helping the "sport" of cycling? Or are they tearing it down?

Cycling is perceived by even the neophyte as a dope riddled sport. Is it any worse than other professional sports? Certainly American Football is far worse in terms of participation and long term debilitating affects. Operation Puerto netted over 200 professional athletes of which 54 were cyclist. What is the punitive impact on the other 146 footballers, tennis pros, and track and field athletes?

It would seem that their fans don't really care about the implications, and ironically their sports suffer far less from doping scandals. Maybe those fans are just blissfully ignorant... or maybe they have a much better understanding of what they are actually witnessing and make an actual choice about expressing indignant outrage. In either case both they, and their sports seem to come out ahead.

So - Mom was right, it is all my fault.

You said "Cycling is perceived by even the neophyte as a dope riddled sport." - why is that?

Festina '98.
Cyclings dirty secret is exposed for all the world to see by French customs. You are right that people who support other sports look on and believe their sport is not like that.
Since then we have had, Giro 2001, USPS 2001, Puerto, T-Mobile, Tour '08, Astana 09, USPS again - all investigations from outside the sport.
And as long as there is no change to how Pro Cycling is run it will continue.

You said cycling is perceived as a dope riddled sport - what is left to tear down?

 

[personal]

... What will make you say "f*** it, I can't be bothered"?

I would have been seriously disappointed if they found a motor in Cancellara's bike. Actually I would feel betrayed and disgusted.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

So - Mom was right, it is all my fault.

You said "Cycling is perceived by even the neophyte as a dope riddled sport." - why is that?

Festina '98.
Cyclings dirty secret is exposed for all the world to see by French customs. You are right that people who support other sports look on and believe their sport is not like that.
Since then we have had, Giro 2001, USPS 2001, Puerto, T-Mobile, Tour '08, Astana 09, USPS again - all investigations from outside the sport.
And as long as there is no change to how Pro Cycling is run it will continue.

You said cycling is perceived as a dope riddled sport - what is left to tear down?

To what end?

I just can't work out to my own satisfaction how a sport so utterly dependant on aerobic output can ever be clean. It only takes any one of the top 5000 cyclists to dope seriously and anyone else who wishes to be competative will have to follow.

The only mechanism would be a testing regime fully up to date with the newest techniques. I struggle to envisage that lasting for long, and not catching the odd innocent rider along the way, which concerns me more than dopers to be honest.

 

[Wallace]

The only thing that would make me seriously consider ignoring the sport would be if Contador is cleared without penalty. If the UCI gives him a free ride, which doesn't seem unlikely, then the ridiculous corruption of the governing body might drive me away.

It isn't riders getting caught that bothers me--we all know how endemic doping is to the sport--it's when they don't caught (as in the "doping free" Tour of 2009) or when they don't get penalized when they do.

 

[andy1234]

The difference is one is a 'recreational drug', usually taken for sh*ts and giggles - the other is a Performance Enhancing Drug, taken to enhance performance in sport that gives a distinct advantage over those who do not wish to do so.

The greatest art, music, poetry and literature this planet has known was directly enhanced by drugs. Legendary performers and artists who created anything under the influence of drugs have had their performance enhanced. I think it could be said that the use of drugs allowed a distinct advantage in their field over individuals who did not indulge.

Sport SHOULD be about pure sporting achievement, but that genie was uncorked long ago. Sorry to anyone who got involved with the sport at this level who thought otherwise, but that is the way it has always been.

I know many people feel cheated by the culture within pro cycling, but for many others it's what keeps them fascinated year after year.

 

[Anonymous]

I disagree. Dope is dope whether it is marijuana, coke or Peds.
To me it is the same thing.
I do not hate Keith R., Clapton or Santana.
Otherwise we are hypocrites.

Take for instance Ulrich,Kloeden and Vino in the 2000 Olympics 123 I do not hate them.

What sillyness.

Clapton on an acid trip makes him better than Santana on heroin?

If clean musicians weren't competitive then maybe you'd have something.

This is just trolling.

 

[VeloFidelis]

So - Mom was right, it is all my fault.

You said "Cycling is perceived by even the neophyte as a dope riddled sport." - why is that?

Festina '98.
Cyclings dirty secret is exposed for all the world to see by French customs. You are right that people who support other sports look on and believe their sport is not like that.
Since then we have had, Giro 2001, USPS 2001, Puerto, T-Mobile, Tour '08, Astana 09, USPS again - all investigations from outside the sport.
And as long as there is no change to how Pro Cycling is run it will continue.

You said cycling is perceived as a dope riddled sport - what is left to tear down?

Well I guess your right... it would be hard for the image of professional cycling to sink much farther. It would seem that self righteous indignation has won the day.

I am sure that we would all be fascinated by the changes in Pro Cycling that you advocate, and which would improve the situation. Please illuminate us all, on how the sport can be saved.

 

[bridgeman]

I don't think any of us will quit watching. It's to much like the urge to take a peak when driving by an accident.

There are some great comments in this thread however.

 

[patrick767]

Here lies the conundrum of doping in cycling. The vociferous and righteous advocates of clean cycling believe that they are doing cycling, themselves, and the rest of us, a great service by protesting to the highest levels and demanding retribution against those accused offenders. Are they helping the "sport" of cycling? Or are they tearing it down?

I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Fighting doping is generally good. Cracking down on the EPO era was a good thing. However, how much is too much? Currently cycling may be about to strip another TdF title and suspend the sport's best Tour rider over an incredibly minute quantity of a banned substance. The amount they found is not enough to benefit Contador and as he was tested for six days in a row, they know right when it appeared in his system and in what quantity.

So in this instance, would the anti-doping crusade be doing the sport any favors? I think not.

 

[patrick767]

Even in everyday life. I'm at Uni at the moment, there're quite a few people around who when exams time comes, help themselves with different kinds of pills and whether it's a placebo effect or not, actually do better thanks to it. I don't think it ever occured anyone who's just on coffee that he's being cheated.

Interesting point. Adderall is said to be heavily abused by students studying for exams at universities. I don't know about elsewhere, but in the US it's a prescription drug and usually the students taking it are buying it illicitly. Does it make a difference? Certainly. The student needs less sleep and can concentrate for longer periods of time. Then they take an exam that, as is typical in universities, gets graded on a class curve. Is that fair to the other students in the class who didn't take the drug? Should we care?

 

[scribe]

I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Fighting doping is generally good. Cracking down on the EPO era was a good thing. However, how much is too much? Currently cycling may be about to strip another TdF title and suspend the sport's best Tour rider over an incredibly minute quantity of a banned substance. The amount they found is not enough to benefit Contador and as he was tested for six days in a row, they know right when it appeared in his system and in what quantity.

So in this instance, would the anti-doping crusade be doing the sport any favors? I think not.

We are not talking about lead poisoning. He ingested a known substance that seems to be enjoying a Renaissance with athletes seeking an edge. He got caught doing it. It is more plausible that it was introduced via blood doping incidentally rather than food contamination. Once popped, it should not be the authority's responsibility to prove additional intent.

 

[BikeCentric]

The only thing that would make me seriously consider ignoring the sport would be if Contador is cleared without penalty. If the UCI gives him a free ride, which doesn't seem unlikely, then the ridiculous corruption of the governing body might drive me away.

It isn't riders getting caught that bothers me--we all know how endemic doping is to the sport--it's when they don't caught (as in the "doping free" Tour of 2009) or when they don't get penalized when they do.

I have to agree. Although I obviously do dislike doping I would have to admit that the air of corruption generated by the UCI, unequal punishments, unequal enforcement, Omerta and those it blacklists, etc., are even more disheartening than the number of riders going positive. The whole circus just gives cycling a real aura of unprofessionalism and impropriety that really gets old.

 

[VeloFidelis]

I have to agree. Although I obviously do dislike doping I would have to admit that the air of corruption generated by the UCI, unequal punishments, unequal enforcement, Omerta and those it blacklists, etc., are even more disheartening than the number of riders going positive. The whole circus just gives cycling a real aura of unprofessionalism and impropriety that really gets old.

All points well made. But it begs the question; on a macro level, is the wholly justified moral indignation among the fan base, ultimately a positive or a negative influence on the sport?

Other sports have equal abuse problems and only a fraction of the image problem. Cheating in sport is as old as sport itself. Will publicity around doping in cycling be the salvation of the sport? Or the facilitator of it's eventual demise?

I for one, do not believe that human nature will ever change in response some decree for morality. I can site social behavior which supports that idea, but little or no examples in competitive sports.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

It would seem that their fans don't really care about the implications, and ironically their sports suffer far less from doping scandals. Maybe those fans are just blissfully ignorant... or maybe they have a much better understanding of what they are actually witnessing and make an actual choice about expressing indignant outrage. In either case both they, and their sports seem to come out ahead.

They don´t know what´s going on. And the organisations do a much "better" job to cover up the scandals (FIFA and it´s Fixing-scandals is absolute No. 1 in this case, followed by IOC and the big four NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL). I gave up the mentioned sports a long time ago, exceptionally i get caught watching Super-Bowl, WC. I only can shake my head of how naive the fans of the other sports are. Even tough cycling fans are cynical, but they have a much better understanding of what´s going on (because of Festina, Puerto etc.). So it should be worth it to make it cleaner.

I would have been seriously disappointed if they found a motor in Cancellara's bike. Actually I would feel betrayed and disgusted.

Oh yes, that would be a real reason to stop watching.

I have to agree. Although I obviously do dislike doping I would have to admit that the air of corruption generated by the UCI, unequal punishments, unequal enforcement, Omerta and those it blacklists, etc., are even more disheartening than the number of riders going positive. The whole circus just gives cycling a real aura of unprofessionalism and impropriety that really gets old.

That´s what annoys me the most. The cover ups and double standards.

For me it would be ok if every day a rider is caught and penalized. It would show me at least cycling is trying. But i´d really have a hard time to watch cycling next year if Contador goes unpunished and Armstrong comes clean out of the Novitsky Case. Numeros fixed races other than the post tours crits would also stop me watching. And when the real gene (= successful) doping starts, it´s time to quit forever.

I would really like to see Gerdemann finding a sponsor for his announced 24 h a day surveillance. Because i am still convinced that the TdF can be ridden without PED´s (even tough some guys try to tell me it´s impossible). Bassons and Mottet showed that it indeed is possible.

I think most of us agree, they watch sporting events because of the game between talented sportsmen searching for a winner, not because of drama between psychos on heavy drugs who act on a pre arranged show event.

 

[loydfloyd32]

Doped or not. As long as the riders are spectacular, I will watch. After all it's riders like Vino, Ricco and chicken people want to see. If you're saying something else, I know that you're lying. If Ricco gets busted again you're only sorry you can't see the dreambattle between him and Basso in the Giro next year.

 

[BikeCentric]

All points well made. But it begs the question; on a macro level, is the wholly justified moral indignation among the fan base, ultimately a positive or a negative influence on the sport?

Other sports have equal abuse problems and only a fraction of the image problem. Cheating in sport is as old as sport itself. Will publicity around doping in cycling be the salvation of the sport? Or the facilitator of it's eventual demise?

I for one, do not believe that human nature will ever change in response some decree for morality. I can site social behavior which supports that idea, but little or no examples in competitive sports.

I agree that it is ultimately human nature that is at fault for the doping problem and that human nature will not change (at least not any time scale that is worth talking about ).

However I do not agree that publicity around doping in cycling is the root of the problem. Sadly the root of the problem is quite simply just how effective doping in cycling translates into a direct increase in sporting performance for the doped-up rider. In short, I don't believe the sport has much of a "clean" future, period - the temptation to attain those chemically induced performance gains will always be there.

It is already a WWF farcical drama of a sport and it will only continue in that direction. I will leave the sport to those that are interested in that sort of thing.

 

[ultimobici]

Doped or not. As long as the riders are spectacular, I will watch. After all it's riders like Vino, Ricco and chicken people want to see. If you're saying something else, I know that you're lying. If Ricco gets busted again you're only sorry you can't see the dreambattle between him and Basso in the Giro next year.

Then I must be a liar.

I cannot stand Ricco, Vino or Rasmussen. Ricco in particular makes my skin crawl. Smarmy, arrogant and totally unrepentant, and that's without even considering the way he conducted himself when his girlfriend was busted!

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

In short, I don't believe the sport has much of a "clean" future, period - the temptation to attain those chemically induced performance gains will always be there.

I think that´s the problem of every sport which needs power and/or endurance and/or speed. As far as i know those talents are needed in every pro sport.

I don´t have the golden idea how to save cycling, but something must be done.

Edit: I don´t wanna end up with kind of wrestling fans who only want a show. That would be pukey.

 

[dbrower]

I still don't get the intensity. Darned few of us are pros, so for us it's entertainment, and you either enjoy watching it or you don't.

Most of the rest of us are either wannabes, for whom almost nothing short of failure will quell interest; or fatty masters, whose sanity left long ago.

There must be some part of the brain that gets rewarded by the outrage, is all I can figure.

-dB

 

[53 x 11]

In the Real Peloton Clentador special, Ned Boulting was alluding to his disillusionment with pro cycling and that he's wondering where we go from here. I've already walked away from pro cycling once, at the height of mid-90's EPO culture, and despite all the promises we're no further on. We have had 7 straight victories for doping, followed by a TDF where the winner was disqualified, the Puerto investigation and cover-up, the Astana transfusion kits that seem to have vanished, a huge ongoing investigation encompassing the UCI with clear evidence of corruption and despite that investigation, they are still trying to get away with it.

Personally, were Armstrong to fail to be convicted, Bruyneel fail to be sanctioned in any way and the UCI to remain in place exactly as they are, I would be very close to walking away again. And as a Brit, should Thomas or Kennaugh test positive, then that could do it also. Of course, I would still ride and race, but just ignore the pro scene. What will make you say "f*** it, I can't be bothered"?

have you really considered why you support pro cycling?

When I hear people talking about how they are just going to 'walk away' because they have 'lost faith' I really wonder how much they know about the sport.

Where did you get this faith from?

 

[marioni]

I will stop watching when races get too boring. No doping scandals will make me stop watching, that's just part of the game.

Same here.

If it were up to me, I'd get rid of anti-doping tests, it's a joke anyway.

 

[The Hitch]

All sports have doping. THe scandals wont make me walk away from cycling.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The greatest art, music, poetry and literature this planet has known was directly enhanced by drugs. Legendary performers and artists who created anything under the influence of drugs have had their performance enhanced. I think it could be said that the use of drugs allowed a distinct advantage in their field over individuals who did not indulge.

Sport SHOULD be about pure sporting achievement, but that genie was uncorked long ago. Sorry to anyone who got involved with the sport at this level who thought otherwise, but that is the way it has always been.

I know many people feel cheated by the culture within pro cycling, but for many others it's what keeps them fascinated year after year.

Sorry but no - the motivation behind taking recreational drugs and PED's are completely separate.

If your latest album just bombed the record company does not suggest you visit the company Doctor for some extra LSD.
Yes, some (not all) of the finest works of art, music etc have been done with the use of drugs, but that is usually a testament to the great (and often complex) individuals then the result of the drugs themselves.

 

[Izzy eviel]

Doping is cheating. People will always try & cheat. As long as people are caught & given proper penalties then that's ok with me. Riders getting banned for a few months end of season or the top riders getting treated differently, then that would put me off.

At least they're cheating to win. I'm a big cricket fan and try to watch all of England's games but after all the match/spot fixing allegations involving ****stan I lost interest.