- Jul 17, 2009
why do I get the feeling durainrider has an opinion on this topic?
They study the data from shoes: load bearing, energy return, where weight is distributed, ect. and then infer those results to injuries. They study the effect their shoes have on strides, not the effect their shoes have on injuries (no research team can do that accurately, not even those in the minimalist camp).Damiano Machiavelli said:That bolded part is absolutely laughable. Do you think that the hundreds of millions of dollars, perhaps even billions of dollars, that Nike has expended on R&D was spent to make shoes that promote injuries?
Some need to feel like they have the definitive answer for everything...durianrider said:The recent barefoot craze was started by the book 'Born to Run by Chris McDougall. Vibram footwear company had the Vibram Five Fingers as a deck shoe designed to increase grip on deck. A crackpot called Barefoot Ted asked em for sponsorship and the rest is history.
Here is Scott Jurek's opinion on barefoot running. He won Western States 100mile 7 times in a row. He is considered the guru of ultra running. Yep, he is also a long term vegan.
Matt: And I read that you wore the Brooks Green Silence when you set that record; is that true?
Scott: That is true.* A lot of people asked, "Did you switch out shoes?"* I wore the same pair for the whole, entire time.
Matt: Oh, really?
Scott: You know, 165.7 miles, and it felt great, and just had the right mix of cushioning and so forth.* And when running a race like that you take so many steps and strides that every little weight counts, and to give my body that kind of feeling of, "Okay, I've got one of the lightest weight shoes that I'd feel comfortable wearing for this distance," and gave it a shot.
Matt: Yeah, that's what I noticed about it, was that it was extremely lightweight for the fact that it still had a kind of cushioned sole on it, compared to the Vibram FiveFingers or something like that.
Matt: And there are obviously all the environmental aspects of it.* I wrote a post about that people were really interested.* Was that part of it for you?
Scott: Oh, definitely, it's been one of my favorite shoes from that standpoint as well.* I mean, anytime a shoe company like Brooks… they've been focusing on sustainability.* That was unheard of 10 years ago or 15 years ago in the footwear industry.* So it is important to me, and I've been really focused on supporting that and encouraging Brooks to do more and more.
We're definitely trying to do more with the design of the Cascadia as well, you know, keeping as many pieces of that shoe and the components involved in that shoe as sustainable as possible.* And again, it's not 100 percent there, but we're making steps each reiteration and each model into making it more sustainable.* Again, like the Green Silence, the heel counter is made of recycled CD's, and again, a lot of these things would just be dumped into landfills.* And shoes, unfortunately, are a very high-landfill volume type product, very throwaway in some ways.* But if we can make it last better and to hold up with using recycled components, we're definitely making strides in the right direction.* We've got a ways to go, but we'll keep working on it.
Matt: And do you wear that kind of minimalist-style shoe a lot, for even like a trail race, or do you ever run in Vibram FiveFingers for races?* Or is that something you just work into your training every once in a while?* Or do you even wear FiveFingers?
Scott: I think barefoot running and training is a great adjunct and for some people, it's the best thing that's happened to their running, and I say great.* Or if it inspires people to get back into running because now they pay more attention to their technique, I mean there's a lot of benefits and I do incorporate some barefoot running into my training.
But as far as everyday or the use of running in that extreme minimalism shoes, like the Vibram Fivefingers or using my bare feet, I'm not going to be able to perform as well because I'm not getting enough protection.* There's a fine line between getting enough protection…I definitely use a lighter-weight shoes when I'm out on the trails and roads, and I've experimented with a number of things and prototypes with Brooks, but the key is having some form of cushioning and protecting the foot.
I went down to the Copper Canyon with, of course, the Tarahumara, and the whole Born to Run book speaks of this—the Tarahumaran use tire tread.* And that's, in some cases, up to a half-inch thick or three-eights of an inch thick.* I mean it's thick rubber; it's tire tread.
Matt: So they're not really running barefoot.
Scott: No, they're not.* And you can't run fast on technical terrain—and again, for some people, running fast isn't their main objective.* Their goal is to get the finish line, and I think everybody wants to get to the finish line.* But if you do want to have a mix of feeling for the ground, integration and proprioception with technique, then going with a more minimal shoe would be great for that. And for some people, you know, running in barefeet and running in a minimal shoe is the best way for them to enjoy this sport, and I say go for it.* Definitely.
Matt: Alright, so now that you've done the 24-hour record and set that American record, you mentioned that it was kind of something you did later in your career, because it required such mental focus.* So what's next for you?* Are you satisfied with what you've accomplished in ultrarunning, or do you still have certain races in mind and certain things you'd like to achieve?
I switched to these. Hoka Mafate. (The one on the left.) Nothing better for looooong distance on rocky technical trails. Try running a 50 or 100 mile trail ultra in those Vibram jokes.mewmewmew13 said:I'm happy the trend seems to be leaning back to more simple soles. Some folks do need more support, but not ridiculous air tubes and springs...
I've recently enjoyed some Saucony Mirage and now am running in Nike LunarFlys. I'm pretty much a trail and dirt/gravel road runner, so don't like most of the clunky 'trail' models.
I'm not an ultra runner. I also don't like asphalt if I can get away from it. Those on the left look like balloon tires! Do they fit snugly? Cant' tell if there is a side lacing system or ?? ..but interesting.BroDeal said:I switched to these. Hoka Mafate. (The one on the left.) Nothing better for looooong distance on rocky technical trails. Try running a 50 or 100 mile trail ultra in those Vibram jokes.
Yeah, they are freakin' huge. Light but spongy as heck. They do not beat your feet up over long distances like other shoes, and the distance ends up being easier on your joints. The sole is massive so you get traction like nothing else. It is like the anti-minimalist shoe.mewmewmew13 said:I'm not an ultra runner. I also don't like asphalt if I can get away from it. Those on the left look like balloon tires! Do they fit snugly? Cant' tell if there is a side lacing system or ?? ..but interesting.
I like trail running because it works all your muscles as you find balance ...but those look like you could muscle your way down scree slopes and not feel a thing!
Not really. When I started trail running I folded an ankle a few times, one time really bad. Since then a combination of muscle strength, better technique, and more careful foot placement has pretty much eliminated that. I find myself constantly shortening or lengthening my stride to avoid stepping on things that could potentially move under my weight and cause me to go down. By the same token, I tripped a lot initially and now I only fall in weird situations.mewmewmew13 said:btw, do you ever feel like you might turn your ankle or roll sideways off the sole? with that height ?
Replace "Hokas" with "Vibram" and I would say the exact same thing!BroDeal said:Not really. When I started trail running I folded an ankle a few times, one time really bad. Since then a combination of muscle strength, better technique, and more careful foot placement has pretty much eliminated that. I find myself constantly shortening or lengthening my stride to avoid stepping on things that could potentially move under my weight and cause me to go down. By the same token, I tripped a lot initially and now I only fall in weird situations.
The traction definitely helps avoid falling due to loose material over bulletproof hard dirt. I feel a lot more secure in Hokas than my other shoes.
Pain enforced learning. But I haven't broken a toe, and some of the trails are treacherous to say the least. Plenty of "ow" moments but this had made me change my running to a) pay ****ing attention to where my feet are going and b) be "lighter" on my feet.BroDeal said:The difference is that when I mess up and hit a rock or root I don't break a toe.
Some trail running shoes have reinforced toe area for such occasions. As careful as you try to be, you still bash things on technical trails, especially when running at night with a head lamp.Tapeworm said:Pain enforced learning. But I haven't broken a toe, and some of the trails are treacherous to say the least. Plenty of "ow" moments but this had made me change my running to a) pay ****ing attention to where my feet are going and b) be "lighter" on my feet.
FWIW I have come across people who have broken toes on trails wearing perfectly normal shoes.