Baseball vs Cycling and Doping

[Escarabajo]

Originally Posted by jackhammer111
...all i find is some he said she said style stuff and then find it repeated over and over again, mainly in this forum.

how does objectivity come into it? take samples, do the tests, tell us the results...



what i meant was all i could find googling it was he said she said stuff... and then find, in the search, that same stuff repeated over and over, mainly on this forum.

not to get political but i reminded me of a ploy the previous us administration used where they leaked a story to the new york times, the times printed it, they they used the times article as proof it must be true.
well, not exactly that... but kind of.

I think we are done. For me it is enough information. Actually too much information to be very skeptical about the results. And trust me I was a believer just like you. I just hope you don't get deflated in the near future just like I did.
Thanks.

 

[BigBoat]

I think we are done. For me it is enough information. Actually too much information to be very skeptical about the results. And trust me I was a believer just like you. I just hope you don't get deflated in the near future just like I did.
Thanks.

What are you guys talking about, the junior thing. I've read that study, it exists somewhere.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I was disappointed not to get any support for my nomination of Dimitri Konyshev as a "Cool" cyclist, but hey...can't win 'em all.

Well, I did have some praise for him in this thread here. What I liked most about him is that he was one of the first Soviets to head west with a smile on his face. He seemed to be eternally happy just to race his bike with the best in the world, and had a great, long career out of it. Same with Eki.

Anyway, glad you're back on the bike and loving it Joe. I don't think anyone here with their eyes open passes judgment on you.

And trust me I was a believer just like you. I just hope you don't get deflated in the near future just like I did.
Thanks.

I was a believer too. I imagine Big Boat was too at some point. Then I got a little involved, and spent even more time studying up, and reality became inevitable. So to me it's not an issue so much of "believing" or even hoping, as it is coming to accept things for the way they are while trying what I can to spread the words about getting the sport cleaner, and still loving it for what good there is in it, and there's plenty of that still around.

 

[BikeCentric]

I have the utmost respect for you Mr Papp. You take responsibility for your actions and paid the price for them. It is actually refreshing to see a man stand up and be a man. I hope that your endeavors are fruitful, and your dreams realized. I look forward to reading your input.

Hey - great post!

And to Joe: I totally agree with what Thoughtforfood said here. Keep riding your bike for health and fitness, maybe race some amateur races if you feel like it sometime, and use the physical and mental strength gained from the endeavor to help achieve your goals in life.

 

[Anonymous]

What are you guys talking about, the junior thing. I've read that study, it exists somewhere.

but you're kidding right?

 

[Anonymous]

Verbruggen reported Lance's contribution to the UCI to Eurosport. An excerpt is included below, but similar reports can be found in the April 2005 online edition of both Pezcycling (http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=3088) and VeloNews (http://velonews.com/article/7914).

Lance Armstrong has always fought to defend himself against slurs on his reputation as a clean athlete but less well known is his fight against doping itself behind the scenes. UCI president Hein Verbruggen spoke to ‘Eurosport’ and divulged that the American “gave money for the research against doping, to discover new anti-doping methods," “He gave money from his private funds, cash. He didn't want this to be known but he did it". Armstrong did not make this knowledge public and when questioned about the contribution said that “If I've donated money to the UCI to combat doping, step up controls and to fund research, it is not my job to issue a press release. That's a secret thing, because it's the right thing to do.” Eurosport.com also reports that when questioned about the amounts of money involved there followed “(Laughter) It was a fair amount. It wasn't... It wasn't a small amount of money".

I will admit I do not know the actual amount and I used the figure being reported on this forum assuming this was a known fact. Regardless, it wasn't a small amount (Verbruggen's quote) and it was a donation that the UCI should have never accepted because it is a clear conflict of interest.

The UCI does lack objectivity and its mandate presents a conflict of interest. The UCI is playing the role of government (rule makers) and policeman, while allowing the national federations to act as the local courts and the CAS as the high or supreme court. The government and police force should be separate entities because if the rules are broken but it doesn't serve the best interest of the government to pursue the guilty party, then you have a coverup. Do I have direct evidence of this? No. However, I think there is plenty of indirect evidence, including the paucity of positive drug tests from the UCI (as said previously, most positive results are from independent drug testing agencies such as the AFLD or riders caught red-handed in one of the many doping scandals), positive results that should have been reported but were not (eg, Armstrong's increased hCG levels, Kohl's EPO levels, etc), and the general lack of enthusiasm from the UCI regarding drug testing (eg, an EPO test was not introduced until 2001, a full 10+ years after the professional peloton were known to be using EPO). As more direct evidence, these are quotes from Verbruggen:

Prior to the 2000 TdF, a mere 2 years after the Festina Affair: "To use a (compulsory) blood and urine test for a cycle race such as the Tour de France would be too complicated, too hard, and too expensive."

http://www.batemansbaypost.com.au/news/national/national/sport/hard-to-keep-up-with-hein/1173442.aspx
HEIN VERBRUGGEN, former Union Cycliste Internationale president, fired a broadside at the Tour de France this week in the aftermath of three doping scandals. "Cycling should ask itself if it still needs the Tour," he was quoted as saying in the Dutch newspaper AD . "It is synonymous with doping. There are idiots in the peloton who take more risks in the Tour than anywhere else. That can't continue …" Is this the same Verbruggen who, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, accused the media of beat-ups over reports about the emergence of the drug erythropoietin (EPO) and tragic deaths of some users?

We'll see what eventuates with Kohl. I believe he is telling the truth and he will name all the names he can. I am also surprised/dismayed by the reaction of both the UCI and Armstrong to Kohl's admission, both of which stink with the UCI protecting their butts and Armstrong yet again enforcing the Omerta. If the UCI were open to constructive criticism, then they could learn when and how they are doing their drug tests incorrectly rather than ignore a valuable resource in the fight against doping.

For the UCI to be effective, they need to be transparent and distance itself from any conspiracy theories. To do this, they should continue as the regulatory body of professional cycling and handover the policing of its rules to an independent body such as WADA. However, they obviously have power issues (eg, PT vs GT fight last year) which supercede the best interests of the sport and I doubt that they would ever do the right thing and allow WADA to take over drug testing. If the conspiracy theorists are correct, then the UCI would likely be very embarrassed.

thank you for the links and your very thoughful reply.
i do agree that the conflict of interest point is well made.
i noticed also that nobody in the articles mentioned anything improper or nefarious about the payment.
in general, i tend not to believe in conspiracy theories reasoning that in most cases too many people would have to be in on the fix for silence to hold over a long period of time.

 

[joe_papp]

Well, I did have some praise for him in this thread here. What I liked most about him is that he was one of the first Soviets to head west with a smile on his face. He seemed to be eternally happy just to race his bike with the best in the world, and had a great, long career out of it. Same with Eki.

Anyway, glad you're back on the bike and loving it Joe. I don't think anyone here with their eyes open passes judgment on you.

It's great to be back on the bike, and I appreciate the kind words of support. It goes without saying that I lament everything I've ever done that was somehow wrong. I'm just happy to have recaptured the joy of riding a bike, and I want to hold onto that for as long as I can.

Konyshev (Дмитрий Борисович Конышев)...there was a guy who every time I saw him off of the bike, he looked really dour or stern. But as soon as he was riding, his face blossomed into one big, huge, silly grin of pure enjoyment and happiness

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Any goals for the year Joe? It doesn't sound like you're interested in heading back to the pro ranks, but perhaps you'd be interested in something like the Bob Cook Memorial? Mt. Graham climb? Or Mt. Washington climb? The EDCA 100 Mile TT? Or maybe Leadville? Or something crazy like RAAM?!

Or maybe something like setting a record for Mauna Kea, bottom to top? I don't think there is one, so you could set a standard. Not too many people I know could even make it up that thing. And you could do it on your own, out of the way of any watchful eyes. If I'm on vacation there and see a guy on a bike going up with a big, huge, silly grin of pure enjoyment and happiness on his face, I'll assume it's you.

 

[Anonymous]

Testosterone gel works - or more importantly, at the very least - most doping pro cyclists believe it works - so it's still used in the pro peloton today. I believe it really works, though.

interesting point about believing it works.
or maybe small amounts might make real gains at the highest climb or longest stage in someone that has a huge natural gift to begin with.
with a guy like me it would probably be the opposite. not much of a natural talent to begin with it would take huge amounts to notice the difference.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

With a guy like me it would probably be the opposite. not much of a natural talent to begin with it would take huge amounts to notice the difference.

Exactly - Jack, there is no possibly reason what so ever for riders like you and me to dope, period. Getting coaching, riding a disciplined training program, frequent racing, these will do way, way more than doping. Way more. The time to dope (if I can gesture such a disturbing thing) is when your output is peaked and you're out there riding and racing 1500 miles a month, or more and don't see gains, and are having a hard time with recovery, and can get medical assistance. No one in their right mind not at that level should ever consider doping. As you say, the gains won't be even, a lot of dope would likely be needed, and the risks quite high, especially without medical supervision.

I hope anyone out there reading and thinking getting a hold of testosterone gel or EPO to smoke other riders in their next century reads this. Want to see big gains, get coaching, do strict training, and if you've got the time, head somewhere like Leadville, Colorado or Mammoth Lakes, California for two weeks and do some riding around there. You will see some gains when you get back down to lower elevation. They won't last, but nothing ever does.

 

[Epicycle]

interesting point about believing it works.
or maybe small amounts might make real gains at the highest climb or longest stage in someone that has a huge natural gift to begin with.
with a guy like me it would probably be the opposite. not much of a natural talent to begin with it would take huge amounts to notice the difference.

No, it works well because of the training and racing amount and intensity the pros do. More training or racing equals lower testosterone levels. If you train 20 hours a week for a few weeks or ride a tough stage race it will work for you too. Also testosterone levels go down if you run a calorie deficit which pros do during hard racing or training to lose those few extra kilos.

 

[rhubroma]

Exactly - Jack, there is no possibly reason what so ever for riders like you and me to dope, period. Getting coaching, riding a disciplined training program, frequent racing, these will do way, way more than doping. Way more. The time to dope (if I can gesture such a disturbing thing) is when your output is peaked and you're out there riding and racing 1500 miles a month, or more and don't see gains, and are having a hard time with recovery, and can get medical assistance. No one in their right mind not at that level should ever consider doping. As you say, the gains won't be even, a lot of dope would likely be needed, and the risks quite high, especially without medical supervision.

I hope anyone out there reading and thinking getting a hold of testosterone gel or EPO to smoke other riders in their next century reads this. Want to see big gains, get coaching, do strict training, and if you've got the time, head somewhere like Leadville, Colorado or Mammoth Lakes, California for two weeks and do some riding around there. You will see some gains when you get back down to lower elevation. They won't last, but nothing ever does.

But don't forget many top amatuers dope too. In other words, one doesn't need to be a pro for doping to work. At the same time, as it is said here in Italy, doping won't turn a donkey into a race horse. But it will mak a faster donkey, just as it would a faster race horse. It's all relative and proportional to one's real potential.

It's true though that before one would even consider doping, one has to do one's homework training. That's a give, because without training doping makes no sense. However if you are training at a high intensity, whether a donkey or a race horse, than doping will make your performance improve.

Naturally I'm not condoning the practice, but you wouldn't believe how many second and third rank cyclists resort to it and gain fitness which otherwise would have been impossible. That's the really sick thing, guys who are doping that can't win anyway. They just want to do better than the other donkies...which is completely pathetic.

 

[Anonymous]

Testosterone gel works - or more importantly, at the very least - most doping pro cyclists believe it works - so it's still used in the pro peloton today. I believe it really works, though.

And one of the reasons why there aren't studies that show that testgel is effective at facilitating recovery of elite athletes during multi-day bicycle races is b/c scientists would be ethically barred from undertaking that kind of research. So anyone who uses that "no confirming science" excuse is throwing out a red herring.

i'm doing this again because i think i did a very poor job of making my point.
i was claming that in my informned but less than expert opinion, you don't get much of a change in serum testostone using the gel.
i'm tying to come to grips with the idea that some racers would take such a huge risk using it.
joe say is works, and that part of it may the belief aspect of it.
then it occurred to me that belief aside, small amounts of boost in serum testosterone may make a much more noticeable difference in a great athlete.
i can understand the temptation to do epo or blood dope because of the very obvious gains that even a mule like me would feel.
but with something like gel, you take the same kind of risk getting caught for less obvious reward.
just tying to understand the mentality.

 

[Epicycle]

then it occurred to me that belief aside, small amounts of boost in serum testosterone may make a much more noticeable difference in a great athlete.

You are missing the crucial fact. Small doses of testosterone make a noticeable difference in extremely well trained athletes. Does not matter if the athlete is great or not. The physiology is the same. Think of famous cycling doctors such as Francois Bellocq or Eufemiano Fuentes who spoke of normalizing hormone levels. With greater workload testosterone levels drop. This hinders recovery.