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Baseball vs Cycling and Doping

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May 1, 2009
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jackhammer111 said:
...all i find is some he said she said style stuff and then find it repeated over and over again, mainly in this forum.

how does objectivity come into it? take samples, do the tests, tell us the results...

yep. its a forum. they are all about opinions, not really scientific by nature.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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boalio said:
yep. its a forum. they are all about opinions, not really scientific by nature.

I actually think jackhammer has a good question and it is one that we should be able to answer because it has nothing to do with science and everything to do with politics and ethics. Does the UCI lack objectivity? Should the UCI be allowed to both regulate and police professional cycling? Does this represent a conflict of interest?
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
Good, informative posts, Elapid. Many thanks.



This is a real sticky wicket. As far as I know there has only been one instance where someone was convicted of likely using Repoyxgen; German athletics coach Thomas Springstein, and Rashid Ramzi. But during the investigation no actual Repoxygen was found, and WADA stated that they have been unable to purchase it with some of their undercover investigations.

As to stem-cell gene doping, a similar situation. When talking about Pfizer, Merck, etc. you left out an entire country: China. During the Beijing Olympics there was that now infamous situation where undercover reporters posing as American swim coaches were able to find a physician willing to sell stem-cell doping at a cost. They didn't actually have the money to purchase it, thus didn't go through with the attempted sale.

No, no stem cell gene doping products were found. But we're not talking as though we're trying to prove a case to a grand jury. At least as far as I see it. We're trying to determine whether it actually exists, or not, or if and when it will.



When you say "self doping" do you mean autologous blood doping? There is no test for it. The testers measure hematocrit, and young blood cells, and file the numbers under the biological passport. Where, so far, contrary to what the UCI said the would do, no action is taken.

What did you read, btw? You now have me curious, maybe I'm confused by your question?



Joe Papp, for one, who actually used it as a professional cyclist would disagree with you. Maybe he'll come on here and verify, though I'm guess at this point he'd like to avoid the whole issue.

Testosterone gel works - or more importantly, at the very least - most doping pro cyclists believe it works - so it's still used in the pro peloton today. I believe it really works, though.

And one of the reasons why there aren't studies that show that testgel is effective at facilitating recovery of elite athletes during multi-day bicycle races is b/c scientists would be ethically barred from undertaking that kind of research. So anyone who uses that "no confirming science" excuse is throwing out a red herring.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
Joe Papp, for one, who actually used it as a professional cyclist would disagree with you. Maybe he'll come on here and verify, though I'm guess at this point he'd like to avoid the whole issue.

Just an aside, I'm happy to participate in whatever interesting discussions are going on. My love of cycling is reemerging.

I enjoy watching cycling now, but from Aug. 2006 until April 2009 I wanted nothing to do with it. You have to understand, cycling was my life before, and it was something I’d intended to make a career of from the time I was 14 years old. I was thrilled to be able to compete at the level at which I competed, and devastated when that ended.

But only then did I pass into the phase when I could reflect upon how unethical and corrupt I’d become as an individual doper, and how I so lost my way by involving myself in the doping. And I turned my back on the sport in all forms and all ways. But I could never kill the passion for it that still lives within me. I wish I could have, I really do – because that would have made my life simpler.

But I still love cycling, and about a month ago I started riding my bicycle again. Not because I want to race, but rather, because I simply missed it. Doping and then being caught for it was traumatic, and the most horrible time of my life. Through doping I seriously harmed my post-sport life and it’s like I have a big scar in my soul, and my psyche, and of course in my public reputation. But I still love the sport and have to admit this now. I just can't deny it.

I still dream of being able to carry on with my plan, which was to become manager of an amateur team based in Italy, and then grow it into a professional squad. I don’t know that could happen now --despite my education, my experience in business, everything I learned by dedicating myself to this sport for 20 years -- because of the ethical cloud that hovers over all former dopers except David Millar (and I blame the media in part for this)…but it was always my dream and for three years I’ve lived trying to suppress that dream, and life has been miserable.

The best way I can explain it is to say that I’m very smart, and academically gifted and well-spoken and seemingly could do whatever kind of job I wanted. But since I was a little kid, I loved cycling, and at age 14 was writing sponsorship proposals to companies and doing media relations. I have many interests, but cycling was the only thing that for me had an intrinsic value or worth, and I was content to think of making my living through the sport until I died, even if it meant that I wouldn’t earn as much as a banker or doctor. That’s why I sometimes wish I could have killed off that passion during the dark days from post-Italy to now, because without having known so much love for a sport that could be a profession in many forms, my life now would be simpler, and I could accept the station where I’m at and finish my master’s degree and go work in a bank or something like that.

This might sound funny to you, or maybe it is a bit tragic or even strange…but yes, I still love the sport – but I hate the people who have so corrupted the sport that we as riders became more proficient in inserting needles into our veins than a trained nurse. But that corruption and those people are not cycling – they just exploit cycling and use it as a vehicle to realize their own bad instincts. But the sport itself is beautiful, and one can compete in it without drugs. Obviously it is much harder to do without drugs, and maybe the races need to be shortened to stop people claiming that race length is justification for doping, but there is no reason that cycling should not survive, and thrive.

Very few of the people I knew WANTED to dope. They just accepted that they were part of something larger than them and felt doping was something that they had to do as part of the sport’s participatory requirements. Obviously it isn’t and we all have free will, but when a system is corrupt it is much more difficult to survive as an individual. I hate those few riders though who enjoyed doping and were gleeful about it, and they are the ones who I denounced. The rest I left in peace because they were no better or worse than me and didn’t deserve to be made to suffer just because I was unlucky and caught cheating. But the ones who loved the dope and were sociopaths about it…ugh. Foul.

So, I'll be lurking here as time permits. Please keep the threads interesting! I was disappointed not to get any support for my nomination of Dimitri Konyshev as a "Cool" cyclist, but hey...can't win 'em all.

Ciao,

JP
 
Mar 16, 2009
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jackhammer111 said:
my experience with gel (medical reason) was that it was a time consuming mess with little payoff. my level didn't go up much... not enough... you have to smear it on and let it dry and soak in. you have to give it time to soak in.. you don't want to sweat off and if my experience is any indication you'd have to do it many times a day to get performance lever results. since it's just testosterone in a gel, why not just inject the stuff which is what my own doctor does now... am i the only guy on here being treated for andropause?
my point only being that using gel seems like a waste of time.

I used the gel for 2yrs then lost my medical insurance. now I'm in Mexico and inject myself once every 3-4 weeks. It's $16USD over the counter. no prescription needed. if you have the medical need it really works well.
The gel worked well for me. But I soon started looking around on how to get the the most benefit from it by timing doses around workouts. The gel worked fine for me other than waiting for it to dry.
andropause sucks.
 
joe_papp said:
Just an aside, I'm happy to participate in whatever interesting discussions are going on. My love of cycling is reemerging.

I enjoy watching cycling now, but from Aug. 2006 until April 2009 I wanted nothing to do with it. You have to understand, cycling was my life before, and it was something I’d intended to make a career of from the time I was 14 years old. I was thrilled to be able to compete at the level at which I competed, and devastated when that ended.

But only then did I pass into the phase when I could reflect upon how unethical and corrupt I’d become as an individual doper, and how I so lost my way by involving myself in the doping. And I turned my back on the sport in all forms and all ways. But I could never kill the passion for it that still lives within me. I wish I could have, I really do – because that would have made my life simpler.

But I still love cycling, and about a month ago I started riding my bicycle again. Not because I want to race, but rather, because I simply missed it. Doping and then being caught for it was traumatic, and the most horrible time of my life. Through doping I seriously harmed my post-sport life and it’s like I have a big scar in my soul, and my psyche, and of course in my public reputation. But I still love the sport and have to admit this now. I just can't deny it.

I still dream of being able to carry on with my plan, which was to become manager of an amateur team based in Italy, and then grow it into a professional squad. I don’t know that could happen now --despite my education, my experience in business, everything I learned by dedicating myself to this sport for 20 years -- because of the ethical cloud that hovers over all former dopers except David Millar (and I blame the media in part for this)…but it was always my dream and for three years I’ve lived trying to suppress that dream, and life has been miserable.

The best way I can explain it is to say that I’m very smart, and academically gifted and well-spoken and seemingly could do whatever kind of job I wanted. But since I was a little kid, I loved cycling, and at age 14 was writing sponsorship proposals to companies and doing media relations. I have many interests, but cycling was the only thing that for me had an intrinsic value or worth, and I was content to think of making my living through the sport until I died, even if it meant that I wouldn’t earn as much as a banker or doctor. That’s why I sometimes wish I could have killed off that passion during the dark days from post-Italy to now, because without having known so much love for a sport that could be a profession in many forms, my life now would be simpler, and I could accept the station where I’m at and finish my master’s degree and go work in a bank or something like that.

This might sound funny to you, or maybe it is a bit tragic or even strange…but yes, I still love the sport – but I hate the people who have so corrupted the sport that we as riders became more proficient in inserting needles into our veins than a trained nurse. But that corruption and those people are not cycling – they just exploit cycling and use it as a vehicle to realize their own bad instincts. But the sport itself is beautiful, and one can compete in it without drugs. Obviously it is much harder to do without drugs, and maybe the races need to be shortened to stop people claiming that race length is justification for doping, but there is no reason that cycling should not survive, and thrive.

Very few of the people I knew WANTED to dope. They just accepted that they were part of something larger than them and felt doping was something that they had to do as part of the sport’s participatory requirements. Obviously it isn’t and we all have free will, but when a system is corrupt it is much more difficult to survive as an individual. I hate those few riders though who enjoyed doping and were gleeful about it, and they are the ones who I denounced. The rest I left in peace because they were no better or worse than me and didn’t deserve to be made to suffer just because I was unlucky and caught cheating. But the ones who loved the dope and were sociopaths about it…ugh. Foul.

So, I'll be lurking here as time permits. Please keep the threads interesting! I was disappointed not to get any support for my nomination of Dimitri Konyshev as a "Cool" cyclist, but hey...can't win 'em all.

Ciao,

JP
Thanks. Nice story. I am just curious about at what age are riders expose to doping? That is something that has always puzzled me.
 
joe_papp said:
Just an aside, I'm happy to participate in whatever interesting discussions are going on. My love of cycling is reemerging.

Ciao,

JP
Ciao amico. Anche io ho avuto le stesse gioie e rimmariche in questo mondo fottuto del ciclismo. Il problema è che la bici è la peggiore cosa che c'è, perché l'amiamo follemente come una dona bellissima, anche quando ci fa soffrire come un cane e quando ci porta via dalle responsabilità della vita. E come una donna che amiamo, no ci si può vivere ne con ne senza lei anche quando dovremo lasciar stare.

Ma no preoccuparti troppo. La vita è troppo bella, e ci sono tante altre cose interessantissime oltre la bici. Basta impegnarsi e cercare soddisfazioni nella cultura, a tavola con amici e semplicemente godersi una bella passeggiata in sella ogni tanto. Senza esagerare troppo pero.

Auguri
 
rhubroma said:
Ciao amico. Anche io ho avuto le stesse gioie e rimmariche in questo mondo fottuto del ciclismo. Il problema è che la bici è la peggiore cosa che c'è, perché l'amiamo follemente come una dona bellissima, anche quando ci fa soffrire come un cane e quando ci porta via dalle responsabilità della vita. E come una donna che amiamo, no ci si può vivere ne con ne senza lei anche quando dovremo lasciar stare.

Ma no preoccuparti troppo. La vita è troppo bella, e ci sono tante altre cose interessantissime oltre la bici. Basta impegnarsi e cercare soddisfazioni nella cultura, a tavola con amici e semplicemente godersi una bella passeggiata in sella ogni tanto. Senza esagerare troppo pero.

Auguri

English trans. (to Joe Pap)
Ciao friend. I also went through the same joys and regrets in this **** up sport of cycling. The problem is that the bike is the worst thing out there, because we love it madly even when it makes us suffer like dogs and when it takes us away from the responsibilities of life. It's like a a woman we love: we can live neither with nor without her, even when we should walk away from her.

But don't worry too much. Life is too beautiful and there are so many other really interesting things beyond the bike. It's enough just to commit yourself to and seek satisfaction in culture, at the table with friends and just simply enjoy a nice ride in the saddle now and then. Without exaggerating too much, though.

Best wishes.
 
rhubroma said:
In Italy, usually at the dilatante level, so cat I-II US category and between the ages of 18-24 years old.

Several years ago there were reports from Italy (from a study done by CONI, or the FIC or someone) that reported high-hematocrits indicative of EPO-use in the junior ranks. This should be something you can find via Google or by searching cyclingnews.com.
 
joe_papp said:
Several years ago there were reports from Italy (from a study done by CONI, or the FIC or someone) that reported high-hematocrits indicative of EPO-use in the junior ranks. This should be something you can find via Google or by searching cyclingnews.com.

And we can "allege" from a lawsuit against USA Cycling (that was settled by USAC by the way) that USA Cycling coaches were injecting juniors as early as age 16:

http://velonews.com/article/79
 
BikeCentric said:
And we can "allege" from a lawsuit against USA Cycling (that was settled by USAC by the way) that USA Cycling coaches were injecting juniors as early as age 16:

http://velonews.com/article/79

And the coach doing the injecting...none other than Chris Carmichael, who settled out of court with Greg Strock. I think anyone would be crazy to let that guy near kids. The lack of ethics is mind boggling.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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BroDeal said:
And the coach doing the injecting...none other than Chris Carmichael, who settled out of court with Greg Strock. I think anyone would be crazy to let that guy near kids. The lack of ethics is mind boggling.

I'm a USAC certified coach and I can tell you if you get results you get recognition... It has very little to do with what goes on behind the scenes. I would bet there are 12-13 year olds already on a program... Whenever the parent see's it fit. Some low dose HGH and cortizone... And a jacked crit of course (EPO).


LOL just kidding jk jk.. :)
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Dont forget the ephedrin LOL... And the "Niko mania" too. :)

6a00d8341c61ab53ef0115705abb18970b-pi
 
jackhammer111 said:
shawnrohrbach said:
listen up smart guy. i think i make my point. that y our point about it being easy to fix sport is crap.
if you think other wise bring on your evidence.
don't just go away muttering your little cutesie boy half a$$ed insult about cable faux news.
did you bother to read all my post. i mention your mention of a washington coach and said you've given no evidence that it's true.

You have such a jackhammer kind of way of making a loud non point. do you think you blow hard or just blow?
 
BigBoat said:
I'm a USAC certified coach and I can tell you...

Ahhh, so that explains a lot.

LOL just kidding jk jk.. :)

JK about what part? Probably the part about 12-13 year olds on programs. You probably meant 16-17. Though of course we've all seen how some prospects for NFL, NBA, etc. are "prepared", starting at about 13, often by their parents. And there are many, many reports of high school students on steroids, ephedra, etc.
 
A

Anonymous

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joe_papp said:
Just an aside, I'm happy to participate in whatever interesting discussions are going on. My love of cycling is reemerging.

I enjoy watching cycling now, but from Aug. 2006 until April 2009 I wanted nothing to do with it. You have to understand, cycling was my life before, and it was something I’d intended to make a career of from the time I was 14 years old. I was thrilled to be able to compete at the level at which I competed, and devastated when that ended.

But only then did I pass into the phase when I could reflect upon how unethical and corrupt I’d become as an individual doper, and how I so lost my way by involving myself in the doping. And I turned my back on the sport in all forms and all ways. But I could never kill the passion for it that still lives within me. I wish I could have, I really do – because that would have made my life simpler.

But I still love cycling, and about a month ago I started riding my bicycle again. Not because I want to race, but rather, because I simply missed it. Doping and then being caught for it was traumatic, and the most horrible time of my life. Through doping I seriously harmed my post-sport life and it’s like I have a big scar in my soul, and my psyche, and of course in my public reputation. But I still love the sport and have to admit this now. I just can't deny it.

I still dream of being able to carry on with my plan, which was to become manager of an amateur team based in Italy, and then grow it into a professional squad. I don’t know that could happen now --despite my education, my experience in business, everything I learned by dedicating myself to this sport for 20 years -- because of the ethical cloud that hovers over all former dopers except David Millar (and I blame the media in part for this)…but it was always my dream and for three years I’ve lived trying to suppress that dream, and life has been miserable.

The best way I can explain it is to say that I’m very smart, and academically gifted and well-spoken and seemingly could do whatever kind of job I wanted. But since I was a little kid, I loved cycling, and at age 14 was writing sponsorship proposals to companies and doing media relations. I have many interests, but cycling was the only thing that for me had an intrinsic value or worth, and I was content to think of making my living through the sport until I died, even if it meant that I wouldn’t earn as much as a banker or doctor. That’s why I sometimes wish I could have killed off that passion during the dark days from post-Italy to now, because without having known so much love for a sport that could be a profession in many forms, my life now would be simpler, and I could accept the station where I’m at and finish my master’s degree and go work in a bank or something like that.

This might sound funny to you, or maybe it is a bit tragic or even strange…but yes, I still love the sport – but I hate the people who have so corrupted the sport that we as riders became more proficient in inserting needles into our veins than a trained nurse. But that corruption and those people are not cycling – they just exploit cycling and use it as a vehicle to realize their own bad instincts. But the sport itself is beautiful, and one can compete in it without drugs. Obviously it is much harder to do without drugs, and maybe the races need to be shortened to stop people claiming that race length is justification for doping, but there is no reason that cycling should not survive, and thrive.

Very few of the people I knew WANTED to dope. They just accepted that they were part of something larger than them and felt doping was something that they had to do as part of the sport’s participatory requirements. Obviously it isn’t and we all have free will, but when a system is corrupt it is much more difficult to survive as an individual. I hate those few riders though who enjoyed doping and were gleeful about it, and they are the ones who I denounced. The rest I left in peace because they were no better or worse than me and didn’t deserve to be made to suffer just because I was unlucky and caught cheating. But the ones who loved the dope and were sociopaths about it…ugh. Foul.

So, I'll be lurking here as time permits. Please keep the threads interesting! I was disappointed not to get any support for my nomination of Dimitri Konyshev as a "Cool" cyclist, but hey...can't win 'em all.

Ciao,

JP

I have the utmost respect for you Mr Papp. You take responsibility for your actions and paid the price for them. It is actually refreshing to see a man stand up and be a man. I hope that your endeavors are fruitful, and your dreams realized. I look forward to reading your input.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
I have the utmost respect for you Mr Papp. You take responsibility for your actions and paid the price for them. It is actually refreshing to see a man stand up and be a man. I hope that your endeavors are fruitful, and your dreams realized. I look forward to reading your input.

+1. I wish you all the best.
 
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shawnrohrbach said:
shawnrohrbach said:
By the way, I am proud to express my opinion with my real name. Who the F**K are you?

good for you.
do you have something to say about what we were discussing or are you just trying to stir things up?
my name is jack. i'm 59 and live in westerville oh just outside columbus.
you need to know more than that?
 
jackhammer111 said:
good for you.
do you have something to say about what we were discussing or are you just trying to stir things up?
my name is jack. i'm 59 and live in westerville oh just outside columbus.
you need to know more than that?

You might want to mention that you are willing to fight him if he comes to Ohio.
 
joe_papp said:
Several years ago there were reports from Italy (from a study done by CONI, or the FIC or someone) that reported high-hematocrits indicative of EPO-use in the junior ranks. This should be something you can find via Google or by searching cyclingnews.com.

Yea, that's why I said usually, cause there are cases of Junior level doping too unfortunatelly.
 
BigBoat said:
I'm a USAC certified coach and I can tell you if you get results you get recognition... It has very little to do with what goes on behind the scenes. I would bet there are 12-13 year olds already on a program... Whenever the parent see's it fit. Some low dose HGH and cortizone... And a jacked crit of course (EPO).


LOL just kidding jk jk.. :)
So now we know.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Originally Posted by jackhammer111

...all i find is some he said she said style stuff and then find it repeated over and over again, mainly in this forum.

how does objectivity come into it? take samples, do the tests, tell us the results...

boalio said:
yep. its a forum. they are all about opinions, not really scientific by nature.

i was talking about the supposed 500000 dollar bribe by lance to uci
what i meant was all i could find googling it was he said she said stuff... and then find, in the search, that same stuff repeated over and over, mainly on this forum.

not to get political but i reminded me of a ploy the previous us administration used where they leaked a story to the new york times, the times printed it, they they used the times article as proof it must be true.
well, not exactly that... but kind of.;)