Baseball vs Cycling and Doping

[Alpe d'Huez]

Agree. Imagine this Headline:

MLB to take over UCI and Governing Bodies of Cycling.

Reports today that Major League Baseball has absorbed the financially strapped UCI, or Union Cyclism International. One of the first rules of order has been to implement an equal anti-doping program that is the same for both sports, based on baseball's current model.

As a result, Stefan Schumacher and David Rebellin had their suspensions commuted equaling that of the harsh sentence given Dodgers slugger, Manny Ramirez: 50 days. Schumacher and Rebellin are expected to appeal the decision, which could reduce it in half. Said Schumacher, "This was from a doctor who wasn't aware of what was on the list of banned substances. I also feel that my sentence should be backdated to the time of my positive test." The players union is backing Schumacher, and it's expected he'll be able to continue racing in the interim until the matter is resolved.

 

[Mr.DNA]

Hi guys,
Sorry but i'm not from the US and have never seen a baseball game, What benefits would a player have from doping?
Is a game of baseball a long event? Or do the players take it to make them stronger so they can hit the ball further?
Sorry for my ignorance.

IMHO the benefit of 'roids is not just to hit the ball farther, but that greater strength means quicker bat speed. The longer you can wait until you have to swing, the easier to recognize the type of pitch and predict its location when it crosses the plate. So not only will it go farther but you will hit it more often and with greater accuracy.

It is easy to pick out the guys who are 'roid heads. As their muscles outgrow their frame, they become susceptible to ligament and joint problems. These injuries have become all too common among the guys with ballooning hat sizes.

 

[Sneekes]

Down Memory lane here, I think an Italian by the name of Alberto Volpi was caught for this product Gonadthropin back in 93 after the long dead Leeds classic.

Is this the same Alberto Volpi who is currently DS at Barloworld?

Good call on the bat-speed Mr DNA - that's certainly an issue too [cough] Brett Boone [cough]

 

[BikeCentric]

I get sick and tired of this so called cycling fans thrashing and bashing the sport when in fact cycling is the only sport that does not have its head stuck in the sand.

Hey Doc, don't get angry at your fellow fans. Remember, all fans are at different places in terms of their knowledge of cycling. Some are new and naive and intoxicated by what a wonderful sport it is - which is great until they find out about the dark side. This often causes them to become bitter and cynical towards the sport for some time. The glass half empty view is that the sport is still very dirty - and it is. The glass half full view is that the sport is actively trying to clean up and tests more than any other sport - and this is also true.

Me I'm made hopelessly cynical by watching this sport forever but I love it so I'm not going anywhere. Point I'm trying to make is don't get upset with folks who are upset about the state of the sport or we might turn them away permanently from the sport which is no good at all. I'd rather have fans who are aware of what's going under the surface and are still passionate about the sport. Shows they care.

 

[BikeCentric]

Polini had been dismissed in favour of Ferrari having total control so Polini spoke of all the products that could make it through tests including EPO.
Reaction of Moreno Argentin, Ferraris star man "I wouldnt go to Polini even if I had a cold" Mecair moprhed into Gewiss in 94 with Ferrari as doctor, guys like Berzin & Bobrik who had been with Polini in 93, were now working with Ferrari. The rest, they say is history.

They are catching guys in Baseball for a product that was first caught in cycling almost 20 years ago!!!

I recall this - then the next year in '95 was when the 3 riders from Gewiss TTT'ed off the front of Fleche-Wallone and the entire rest of the peloton couldn't chase them down. Gewiss took 1-2-3 with Argentin winning. Reporters grilling Ferari about the incident afterwards is when Ferari made his famous "EPO no more dangerous than orange juice" comment and was subsequently fired by Gewiss as their team doctor because it looked so bad.

 

[pmcg76]

Is this the same Alberto Volpi who is currently DS at Barloworld?]

That would be the guy, imagine a team director who took drugs, not many of then round!!!

 

[Dr. Wattini]

Hey Doc, don't get angry at your fellow fans. Remember, all fans are at different places in terms of their knowledge of cycling. Some are new and naive and intoxicated by what a wonderful sport it is - which is great until they find out about the dark side. This often causes them to become bitter and cynical towards the sport for some time. The glass half empty view is that the sport is still very dirty - and it is. The glass half full view is that the sport is actively trying to clean up and tests more than any other sport - and this is also true.

Me I'm made hopelessly cynical by watching this sport forever but I love it so I'm not going anywhere. Point I'm trying to make is don't get upset with folks who are upset about the state of the sport or we might turn them away permanently from the sport which is no good at all. I'd rather have fans who are aware of what's going under the surface and are still passionate about the sport. Shows they care.

BikeCentric,
I got to tell you bro, I have been riding my bike for about 15 years now, and I love riding my bike quite a bit. Don't take me wrong, I love pro-cycling and all the stuff that goes on. the pro-peloton and their little dirty secrets are just entertaiment. What I am trying to tell you is that cycling or riding a bike as a sport is a phenomenal activity and quite lovely, but the pro peloton to me is just entertaiment. The fan should stablish some sort of difference between the 2 activities.
My opinion is that the pro peloton is a circus, with its clowns, fire spitters, domesticating lions. I just love the entertaiment that all the druggies bring on

 

[No Brakes]

Using steroids can deplete the bodies natural production of HCG, thus steriod users will often take HCG illegally to "reset" the bodies hormonal balance of HCG. It does have performance benefits alone that are akin to Testosterone doping. It is most certainly on the UCI banned list; not sure about MLB. HCG can be elevated in the body either by illegal doping with it OR if you have testicular cancer. If Manny has cancer he could get out of it, but it's either cancer or doping with HCG, cut and dried.

Lance Armstrong had hugely high levels of HCG in his body upon his diagnosis of testicular cancer. Interestingly enough his UCI test controls never tested him positive for HCG in the last races he did in 1996 prior to his cancer diagnosis, so the either the tests themselves failed or the results were kept quiet. It was a huge scandal back then - do a search on it if you want the background.

Thanks for the info BC, and to the others that contributed. I don't think the cancer angle is going to fly in this case

 

[flyor64]

Didnt Ramirez play with the Red Sox and didnt he win a world series so he is not exactly a small time player. Even then, there were plenty of rumours about guys on roids, dont think there was any testing back then. I magine.

Yes...but he's not well-loved in bean-town...they're probably toasting this latest twist in the pubs in south Boston right now

 

[flyor64]

The other sports...man, we get a bad wrap sometimes

I was just skimming thru some of the Manny news and came across this photo collage by SI of "Infamous Drug-Related Incidents"

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0707/cheaters.drug.related/content.1.html

13 pics...only one cyclist...granted this is U.S. based and obviously focused on sports of interest in the states...but what struck me was two things:

1) Only 1 out of 13 of the "high profile" pics was Floyd...baseball, track, and American football were most of them, and yet cycling has the stigma.

2) The bans and fines these athletes faced were laughable in some cases:

- Rafael Palmeiro (baseball): 10 day ban (which he tried to appeal!) Backstory: He swore before a congressional hearing that he never used PEDs...and got busted later that year!!! 10 days!!!

- Shawne Merrimen (football): 4 game ban (1/4 of a season), that was it...he still played 12 of the 16 regular season games, led the league in sacks (tackling the quaterback behind the line of scrimmage) and went on the Pro Bowl. That's loosely the equivilant of say, being caught at ToC and being banned only for the classics season...and the coming back the same year and winning the TdF...of the World Championships...

- Fernando Vargas (boxing): 9 month ban (maybe 1 or 2 bouts)...that's it.

 

[mr. tibbs]

flyor64's post about the SI article is just one more bit of media that is actually making me start to feel smug & superior about this whole doping situation.

Cycling DOES appear to be the only sport doing anything about PEDs. thanks for the ammo in debates on doping in sport, flyor!

Also, I'm kind of embarrased to admit it, but I'm really enjoying this whole Manny thing. It's really put everything back into perspective as far as professional sport and performance enhancement are concerned. Every sport does it, and every sport will always do it.

I even once heard a rumor from a fairly reliable source that a certain implicated cyclist told a certain high level wheel and component manufacturer that he (the cyclist) was once waiting in a certain Spanish gynecologist's lobby with a certain top-ranking tennis player and a certain top-ranking F1 driver.

 

[180mmCrank]

As you point out these lists often reflect the interests of both the writer and the readership...

Canada (2004)
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/drugs/stories/top10.html
UK (2009)
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/article-23624918-details/Top+10+sensational+drugs+scandals+in+sport/article.do
NZ (2009)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10557653&pnum=3

I am sure there are other lists - and I agree that the difference in the consequences is staggering - some sports it's more of a slap on the wrist while others it's virtually a life ban.

 

[Pietro]

Yes...but he's not well-loved in bean-town...they're probably toasting this latest twist in the pubs in south Boston right now

Or in Cleveland, where he wasn't on many people's Xmas card list. Manny being Manny. Probably fits right in in LA tho...

 

[flyor64]

As you point out these lists often reflect the interests of both the writer and the readership...

Canada (2004)
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/drugs/stories/top10.html
UK (2009)
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/article-23624918-details/Top+10+sensational+drugs+scandals+in+sport/article.do
NZ (2009)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10557653&pnum=3

I am sure there are other lists - and I agree that the difference in the consequences is staggering - some sports it's more of a slap on the wrist while others it's virtually a life ban.

Very enlightening as well. Thanks.

 

[flyor64]

Or in Cleveland, where he wasn't on many people's Xmas card list. Manny being Manny. Probably fits right in in LA tho...

There's a pretty well written op-ed about MannybManny titled True Hollywood Story (most US posters know that show)...you'll appreciate it I think...although he fails to mention Cleveland, but it's pretty applicable.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/lee_jenkins/05/07/dodgers.ramirez.reaction/index.html?eref=T1

 

[Dr. Wattini]

More Ramirez stuff

Dudes,
Wikipedia says that Ramirez salary for 2008 was about $18.9M dollars. If I remember correctly Katyusha's budget, which was supposed to have one of the biggest budgets of pro cycling, is of about $15M euro.
So basically one year of Ramirez salary can practically finance a year of operation for a Pro Tour team.
Take that and put it in context. Once you dope in cycling your life as a sportman is destroyed. Landis and Hamilton's economic life are gone on legal fees. All this stuff going while Ramirez gets a slap on the hand and continues to cash in $18M per year.
And to top it all, cycling demanding sport. One of Baseball's idols (Babe Ruth) was a fat drunk.
it is a shame that cycling gets the bad rep when it is the only sport taking matters seriously.

 

[flyor64]

Dudes,
Wikipedia says that Ramirez salary for 2008 was about $18.9M dollars. If I remember correctly Katyusha's budget, which was supposed to have one of the biggest budgets of pro cycling, is of about $15M euro.
So basically one year of Ramirez salary can practically finance a year of operation for a Pro Tour team.
Take that and put it in context. Once you dope in cycling your life as a sportman is destroyed. Landis and Hamilton's economic life are gone on legal fees. All this stuff going while Ramirez gets a slap on the hand and continues to cash in $18M per year.
And to top it all, cycling demanding sport. One of Baseball's idols (Babe Ruth) was a fat drunk.
it is a shame that cycling gets the bad rep when it is the only sport taking matters seriously.

Plus his guarantee of another 18ish million for next year...and LA can do nothing about it. But, mark my words, after his 50 game "vacation" is over, they will welcome him with open arms and after his first dinger all will be forgiven...after all, it'll be close to the playoffs!

I just realized I used LA in a cycling thread and did not mean Lance...

 

[Dr. Wattini]

Plus his guarantee of another 18ish million for next year...and LA can do nothing about it. But, mark my words, after his 50 game "vacation" is over, they will welcome him with open arms and after his first dinger all will be forgiven...after all, it'll be close to the playoffs!

I just realized I used LA in a cycling thread and did not mean Lance...

Dude,
I am about to go and find me a baseball fan so I can punch him on the face!!!!

Be careful mentioning the name of the lord (LA) in vain hahaha

 

[Dbrun13]

Baseball fans are starting to know what it feels like to be a cycling fan:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb

 

[flyor64]

Baseball fans are starting to know what it feels like to be a cycling fan:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb

too true...it stings doubly for me, as I've been a bosox fan my whole life...

 

[Dr. Wattini]

from SI
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0905/cheaters.drug.related/content.1.html

Please concentrate in Baseball vs cycling. Baseball is a joke regarding doping efforts.
Then you find good sentences in track and field, a good monetary sentence in boxing.

Bunch of dopers.

 

[flyor64]

from SI
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0905/cheaters.drug.related/content.1.html

Please concentrate in Baseball vs cycling. Baseball is a joke regarding doping efforts.
Then you find good sentences in track and field, a good monetary sentence in boxing.

Bunch of dopers.

So they updated their pics to include him already...the best part of the caption?

...becoming the first major star to be suspended under baseball's stricter drug-testing rules that went into effect in 2003.

There is entirely way too much wrong with this sentence...he's the first player suspended under stricter rules that went into effect over 6 years ago!!! 6 years!

I knew it was bad...but I had no idea it was that bad.

 

[Anonymous]

Using steroids can deplete the bodies natural production of HCG, thus steriod users will often take HCG illegally to "reset" the bodies hormonal balance of HCG. It does have performance benefits alone that are akin to Testosterone doping. It is most certainly on the UCI banned list; not sure about MLB. HCG can be elevated in the body either by illegal doping with it OR if you have testicular cancer. If Manny has cancer he could get out of it, but it's either cancer or doping with HCG, cut and dried.

Lance Armstrong had hugely high levels of HCG in his body upon his diagnosis of testicular cancer. Interestingly enough his UCI test controls never tested him positive for HCG in the last races he did in 1996 prior to his cancer diagnosis, so the either the tests themselves failed or the results were kept quiet. It was a huge scandal back then - do a search on it if you want the background.

HCG has absolutely no performance enhancing effects on it's own.
as an older male i have suffered diminishing testosterone level. it's normal, but i'm telling you guys, you don't have to endure it. my doctor had me trying several different things, one of which was HCG, none of which worked well, before settling on bi-weekly injections of good old fashion testosterone. (i no longer do competitive cycling)
30 seconds of reseach on HCG would have given you this from wikipedia.

"High levels of AASs (anabolic steroids) that mimic the body's natural testosterone trigger the hypothalamus to shut down its production of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. Without GnRH, the pituitary gland stops releasing luteinizing hormone (LH). LH normally travels from the pituitary via the blood stream to the testes, where it triggers the production and release of testosterone. Without LH, the testes shut down their production of testosterone. In males, hCG helps restore and maintain testosterone production in the testes by mimicking LH and triggering the production and release of testosterone."

HCG simply stimulates the production of your own testosterone.

also, "If hCG is used for too long and in too high of a dose, the resulting rise in natural testosterone will eventually inhibit its own production via negative feedback on the hypothalamus and pituitary".

it's ban in sport is simply because it's only benefit in an athetete is help coming out of a steroid cycle, not because of a performance benefit. if you are caught using HGC you are caught using anabolic steroids.

if you have any information contrary this please point me to it.

i hadn't heard about lance and high HGC related to cancer but it makes sense. the cancer connection is addressed on the wikipedia page.
but, again, there's no performance advantage.
maybe the lance bashers think he gave himself cancer to cover the HGC in his blood?
some think that his advantage came from eating babies during the off season.

so anyway, that stuff you said about "Using steroids can deplete the bodies natural production of HCG" is just flat completely wrong. there is no natural production in males of HGC. that is what makes it an easy call if its' found.

 

[rhubroma]

Take that and put it in context. Once you dope in cycling your life as a sportman is destroyed. Landis and Hamilton's economic life are gone on legal fees. All this stuff going while Ramirez gets a slap on the hand and continues to cash in $18M per year.
And to top it all, cycling demanding sport. One of Baseball's idols (Babe Ruth) was a fat drunk.
it is a shame that cycling gets the bad rep when it is the only sport taking matters seriously.

It's all about money. Cycling hasn't got allot, baseball has. Cycling is aerobicly punishing, baseball is not. So if you were to bet which athletes would take recource to doping would it be cyclists or baseball players? Now which sport do you think will be targeted and pressured to clean house from within, in a corporate ruled market world? Cycling or Baseball?

And in such a world which prevails: justice or hypocricy?

 

[Anonymous]

dirtiest steroid secret

the dirty truth about steroids, and their seduction, is that they really make you better in about every measurable way.
not just strength and recovery but reaction time vision hearing, everything. even makes you smarter.
and the supposed risks of using them are, in my opinion, overblown in a puritan, simple minded, just say no to drugs, all drugs are evil, kind of way.
i'm not endorsing, the fact they have to be banned from competitive sports is undeniable. (unless you had all drug all the time leagues, which in a world where cage fighting is popular doesn't see so far fetched).
i just hate misinformation.
like, steriods are hard on the liver.
oral ones are, injectable are not.
high heart disease.
they effect your cholestoral which is not good but there's little data showing a direct causal link.
roid rage
there is a study where the placebo group had higher aggressive behavior than the drugged group. suddenly stopping steroids is a completely different matter. lots of data showing withdraw related violent behavior.
there's more... just search steroids risks debunking.

jack