Basso and Modolo smacked around by protesters!

[La Canaja]

You don't need to play the teacher here. It's a protest, yeah, and part of it is clearly wrong (the violent part). Not for the ideal behind it, which I fully agree with, but for the way it has been done. It aims at the wrong people, the rider, in the wrong way, harming them, while doing nothing against the people who organized it.

Again, where were them when the race was shaping out? Nowhere to be seen or heard, not surprisingly.
They're not there for the cause, they're there for the violence, as they were there for the manifestation against the high velocity train system, and on and on. These people have no business in civil protests. They hide behind a colored flag (and more often than not, behind a hood), and periodically ruin all of the protests organized by the peaceful advocates and groups.
I'm familiar with them, cause I've shared the streets and squares of plenty of manifestations with them before.


You wanna tell me how offensive Lega can be to italian people? I'm from the north of Italy and have three Afro-italian cousins and a bi mother. You tell me how offensive they are to me?

Since you're so familiar with the issue here, you tell me: what has been done before to stop Lega from organizing this race in the first place? I'm talking petitions, I'm talking letters to Presidente della Repubblica to take a strong position on the case, I'm talking discussing the issue in the Parliament and maybe preventing them from organizing it.
Have you heard anything about it? Opposition parties at their best, as always, doing nothing when they have the chance to (and be aware there were flags of the PD and other opposition parties seen among the protesters today).


Read up: http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/10-09-2011/padania-chiodi-puntine-strada-802821103470.shtml

Cyclists, in most cases, have no business in deciding wether they will race here or there, especially if they're young and from a continental. The team choose, they simply do their job. And if they don't, they might just not have a contract next year.
And even if, say, they're stupid enough not to understand the consequences, or supporters of the party, it's not right to punch em or putting their lives at risk. If you don't feel sorry for this, it's your problem. Just don't make it sound like it's the right thing to do for a human being.

 

[hrotha]

Dude, they've thrown nails on the road at the Tour how many times in the workers strikes of the past?

It's called a protest. Read up about them. It's pretty normal. But if the rider did get hurt for this reason, and I won't believe it unless it comes from certain sources, then he will certainly think about his job differently in the future.

Perhaps you have no idea how offensive the party behind the race is to many Italians, but obviously this played no part in the cyclists choice in riding or not. Under the circumstances, however, they were either stupid not to have considered the risks or else willing supporters of the manifistation, in which case there isn't much to feel sorry about.

This post is just ****ed up. "If someone crashed, well, that'll teach him." Disgusting.

 

[rhubroma]

This post is just ****ed up. "If someone crashed, well, that'll teach him." Disgusting.

Well of course that's the idiotic conclusion you'd have drawn.

No, my point was something else. Namely, it was a real protest. Not a game of tiddly-winks. These things can happen and even worse.

It was up to each ridder to assess the risks of carrying on with an event that was so obviously unpopular in a way that went beyond sport (which is in fact why this event should have simply been canceled) and the certain dangers that may have presented themselves under the exasperated confrontation. Then choose to race or not to, on the condition that one takes full responsibility for the consequences of that choice.

So I'd say it was pretty brazen of the riders to continue with an event that was so tainted by a deplorable political agenda. They knew the risks, so my heart can't go out to one in this case the same way as another who falls and get's hurt under normal circumstances.

I don't wish harm upon any of them, but I'd be pretty hypocritical if I just said "oh darling, so sorry for you...poo." I think the guys are pretty much jack-a$$es for continuing the condemnable charade. I also feel that in pursuing the race, the riders and the teams obviously have shown where they stand on the issues, which is most regrettable if not at all surprising. There are times when principle, even among cyclists who usually aren't the brightest and deep thinking of lads, needs to take precedent over work, especially when that job means peddling up and down the roads of a hypothetical padania.

In fact I won't be rooting for any of those guys in a race next year.

 

[rhubroma]

You don't need to play the teacher here. It's a protest, yeah, and part of it is clearly wrong (the violent part). Not for the ideal behind it, which I fully agree with, but for the way it has been done. It aims at the wrong people, the rider, in the wrong way, harming them, while doing nothing against the people who organized it.

Again, where were them when the race was shaping out? Nowhere to be seen or heard, not surprisingly.
They're not there for the cause, they're there for the violence, as they were there for the manifestation against the high velocity train system, and on and on. These people have no business in civil protests. They hide behind a colored flag (and more often than not, behind a hood), and periodically ruin all of the protests organized by the peaceful advocates and groups.
I'm familiar with them, cause I've shared the streets and squares of plenty of manifestations with them before.


You wanna tell me how offensive Lega can be to italian people? I'm from the north of Italy and have three Afro-italian cousins and a bi mother. You tell me how offensive they are to me?

Since you're so familiar with the issue here, you tell me: what has been done before to stop Lega from organizing this race in the first place? I'm talking petitions, I'm talking letters to Presidente della Repubblica to take a strong position on the case, I'm talking discussing the issue in the Parliament and maybe preventing them from organizing it.
Have you heard anything about it? Opposition parties at their best, as always, doing nothing when they have the chance to (and be aware there were flags of the PD and other opposition parties seen among the protesters today).


Read up: http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/10-09-2011/padania-chiodi-puntine-strada-802821103470.shtml

Cyclists, in most cases, have no business in deciding wether they will race here or there, especially if they're young and from a continental. The team choose, they simply do their job. And if they don't, they might just not have a contract next year.
And even if, say, they're stupid enough not to understand the consequences, or supporters of the party, it's not right to punch em or putting their lives at risk. If you don't feel sorry for this, it's your problem. Just don't make it sound like it's the right thing to do for a human being.

Is your name Bossi, Marconi or Calderon by chance?

Did you yourself send the infiltrates?

Apart from the sarcasm, ask Francesco Moser if the protesters challenged the race organizers or not. Although he might be unable to respond to you properly, since he is apparantly incapable of distinguishing between the tricolore and the Green Flag of the Lega.

So cyclists are different from all the other working environments, ehh? They are merely automatons responding to the call of duty? They have no moral consciousness or independence of thought to be able to tell their teams: sorry, this isn't an event in which I can participate? As far as the legal actions go, I think any cyclist who chose to defy his team would have a fairly good defense should his team decide to take him to court. True it might make things difficult for him, which only demonstrates what bad air and what a malign environment reigns within the cycling regime.

Are they no better than the racist and xenophobic organizers of the event? Or are they unruffled by everything, because in reality see no harm in it or rather are simply open supporters of it? If the latter is the case, then I truly can feel no pitty even if I still wouldn't wish them to come to any harm.

There is a difference between wishing them harm, and stating simply that my level of empathy was less under the circumstances. While I don't see the Italian riders as the completely innocent lambs that you do. Ivan Basso's pathetic comments, of which I have allready mentioned, clearly demonstrate that they are not; while I generally have a tendency to pour my heart out somewhat less for imbeciles or hypocrites.

PS: "La corsa comincia, ma sul Pian delle Fugazze qualcuno ha buttato le puntine. La strada viene pulita, qualcuna ne rimane per terra. C'è chi buca senza conseguenze. Ma a Luca Mazzanti va peggio. Il tubolare della sua ruota anteriore, probabilmente proprio a causa di una puntina, si lacera in discesa: caduta, setto nasale rotto, un taglio sul collo vicino alla giugulare, perdita di conoscenza..."

Having said those things, ok, I can now say what a shame for Mazzanti. But, I' mean, come on! They cleared the protesters away (or they fled) and then they swept the road, ma qualcuna ne rimane per terra (some remained on the ground)?!?! Truly pathetic, if not blameworthy.

PSS: As far as your last statements go. I don't know, you tell me? What did the people of the north, besides the protesters, do to prevent the event? What did the Italian Cycling federation do to prevent the event? What did the riders and team sponsors do to prevent the event? And, above all, what did the Berlusconi government in Rome do to prevent the event?

Whereas your personal family situation obviously means that I can add nothing to your sentiments of disgust and indignation toward the Lega, however, if you can't answer those questions for me, perhaps you should seek the answers for yourself up north.

Lastly I don't subscribe to any methods that would cause harm to the riders in this case, however the cynic in me can't feel too much empathy for professionals who allow the sport to be further blighted by the Giro di Padania.

As if it had any reason, especially in Italy, for further bad publicity. Which makes the teams choice all the more appalling and reprehensible.

 

[Animal]

Under the circumstances, however, they were either stupid not to have considered the risks or else willing supporters of the manifistation, in which case there isn't much to feel sorry about.

What if the cyclist was a young, aspiring Brit in his first year on one of the smaller Italian teams (from the south), desperate to finish his first x.1 race and attain the race speed of the pros?

Sometimes you can't be fussy, unless you want to get sent home. Don't blame the riders, especially the smaller ones.

 

[rhubroma]

What if the cyclist was a young, aspiring Brit in his first year on one of the smaller Italian teams (from the south), desperate to finish his first x.1 race and attain the race speed of the pros?

Sometimes you can't be fussy, unless you want to get sent home. Don't blame the riders, especially the smaller ones.

Alright, mine was a crass and somewhat callous statement. But I assure you it wasn't mean spirited, just perhaps a bit cynical. Although I can't refrain from some cynicism under such circumstances.

But I ask you: what image does this present for the sponsors of a team that has consciously decided to continue in an event organized by a bunch of racists?

Is it me, or do people, including the riders, seem to totally not give a damn about this and so just frankly overlook the fact: that the organizers are a bunch of racists. As much as it pains me to say it, only in Berlusconi's Italy would this be possible. If the riders were uninformed before the start, then the protesters should have swiftly educated them of the import of the event.

Don't these teams have any awareness of where they are riding and what for?

As for the young and aspiring Brit. If anything it just goes to show you how money, not decency, rules everything and when money rules everything, the innocent and the weak are not infrequently the ones made to pay the heaviest price.

 

[ultimobici]

Is your name Bossi, Marconi or Calderon by chance? What utter nonsense.

Did you yourself send the infiltrates?

Apart from the sarcasm, ask Francesco Moser if the protesters challenged the race organizers or not. Although he might be unable to respond to you properly, since he is apparantly incapable of distinguishing between the tricolore and the Green Flag of the Lega.

So cyclists are different from all the other working environments, ehh? They are merely automatons responding to the call of duty? They have no moral consciousness or independence of thought to be able to tell their teams: sorry, this isn't an event in which I can participate? As far as the legal actions go, I think any cyclist who chose to defy his team would have a fairly good defense should his team decide to take him to court. True it might make things difficult for him, which only demonstrates what bad air and a malicious environment reigns within the cycling regime.

Are they no better than the racist and xenophobic organizers of the event? Or are they unfathomed by everything, because in reality see no harm in it, if not are open supporters of it? If the latter is the case, then I truly can feel no pitty even if I still wouldn't wish anyone to come to any harm.

There is a difference between wishing them harm, and stating simply that my level of empathy was less under the circumstances. While I don't see the Italian riders as the completely innocent lambs that you do. Ivan Basso's pathetic comments, of which I have allready mentioned, clearly demonstrate that they are not; while I generally have a tendency to pour my heart out somewhat less to imbeciles or hypocrites.

PS: "La corsa comincia, ma sul Pian delle Fugazze qualcuno ha buttato le puntine. La strada viene pulita, qualcuna ne rimane per terra. C'è chi buca senza conseguenze. Ma a Luca Mazzanti va peggio. Il tubolare della sua ruota anteriore, probabilmente proprio a causa di una puntina, si lacera in discesa: caduta, setto nasale rotto, un taglio sul collo vicino alla giugulare, perdita di conoscenza..."

Having said those things, ok, I can now say what a shame for Mazzanti. But, I' mean, come on! They cleared the protesters away (at least one would assume they did) and then they swept the road, ma qualcuna ne rimane per terra (some remained on the ground)?!?! Truly pathetic if not blameworthy.

I'm staggered at your apparent lack of compassion for a fellow cyclist. The idea that a rider has much if any say in where & when they race is laughable. The Bassos, Modolos & Scarponis of the peloton do, but your average domestique who refuses to ride an event their sponsor directs them to does not.

Imagine an office worker in a law firm refusing to work on a client's case because they disagreed with that individual's politics. They'd be out looking for a job pretty quickly, I'd imagine. The lot of a twenty something pro on a Pro Conti or Conti team is probably less free and easy.

To use such a tactic to protest against something as vile and hateful as Lega Nord brings the protesters down to the same level.

BTW, just noticed that your reply appears to be oblivious of La Canaja's standpoint. You also appear to be ignoring his local experience to boot.

 

[rhubroma]

I'm staggered at your apparent lack of compassion for a fellow cyclist. The idea that a rider has much if any say in where & when they race is laughable. The Bassos, Modolos & Scarponis of the peloton do, but your average domestique who refuses to ride an event their sponsor directs them to does not.

Imagine an office worker in a law firm refusing to work on a client's case because they disagreed with that individual's politics. They'd be out looking for a job pretty quickly, I'd imagine. The lot of a twenty something pro on a Pro Conti or Conti team is probably less free and easy.

To use such a tactic to protest against something as vile and hateful as Lega Nord brings the protesters down to the same level.

BTW, just noticed that your reply appears to be oblivious of La Canaja's standpoint. You also appear to be ignoring his local experience to boot.

I said I felt sorry for the guy, already! But I'm just a bit cynical toward my views of the riders right now.

No, so far, the potesters are nowhere near as vile an hateful as the Lega.

Angry and perhaps misguided yes, but let's not exaggerate. You only play into the hands of the Lega in doing so. It's not as if a bomb was placed are shots were fired (which has happened before by the way in Italy among both black and red militants). The tacks were probably intended to do no more than cause inconvenience.

So please, let's not exaggerate. I may have been somewhat callous, but here you are clearly taking things too far.

PS: I added some things above that you do not consider.

 

[ultimobici]

I said I felt sorry for the guy, already! But I'm just a bit cynical toward my views of the riders right now.

No, so far, the potesters are nowhere near as vile an hateful as the Lega.

Angry and misguided yes, but let's not exaggerate. It's not as if a bomb was placed are shots were fired (which has happened before in Italy in both black and red militants).

So please, let's not esaggerate. I may have been somewhat callous, but here you are clearly taking things too far.

You missed the point of my comment.

I mean that when you resort to dumping tacks on the course you lose any moral high ground. It doesn't make them as bad as the Lega, but undermines any objection they have.

 

[rhubroma]

You missed the point of my comment.

I mean that when you resort to dumping tacks on the course you lose any moral high ground. It doesn't make them as bad as the Lega, but undermines any objection they have.

Alright, granted, I don't disagree with this.

My bottom line, though, is that if you play with fire, then it isn't surprising, let alone at all shocking, if you get burnt.

I feel sorry for the guy that broke his nose, but the teams in knowingly, in some cases no doubt willingly, participating in an event sponsored by the Lega were playing with fire. And continuing in the event, as if what it represents should make no difference on the job (as Ivan Basso has clearly informed us), has been simply disgraceful to Italian cycling.

My sentiments toward the teams and level of empathy have thus been accordingly adjusted, even if that doesn't mean I condone some of the protesters methods. Now without wishing them harm, and with all due consolences to the injured, I don't feel the need to explain myself any further in this regard

 

[ultimobici]

The tacks were probably intended to do no more than cause inconvenience.

PS: I added some things above that you do not consider.

Inconvenience? After the fate that befell Wouter Weylants in this year's Giro, the idea that sprinkling tacks on a descent would be a mere inconvenience is beyond belief. That only one rider was seriously injured is a minor miracle. I wonder if you've ever ridden a descent at race speed, let alone had to contend with a front wheel puncture at speed?

 

[ultimobici]

The tacks were probably intended to do no more than cause inconvenience.

PS: I added some things above that you do not consider.

Inconvenience? After the fate that befell Wouter Weylants in this year's Giro, the idea that sprinkling tacks on a descent would be a mere inconvenience is beyond belief. That only one rider was seriously injured is a minor miracle. I wonder if you've ever ridden a descent at race speed, let alone had to contend with a front wheel puncture at speed?

Causing an inconvenience is delaying the start, disrupting the presentation or blocking the course with barricades. 10mm tacks on the road is descending into the idiotic and downright irresponsible. How can they know that no one will be hurt or killed? It makes them no better than a football hooligan who throws coins at the pitch. In short a genius!

 

[rhubroma]

Inconvenience? After the fate that befell Wouter Weylants in this year's Giro, the idea that sprinkling tacks on a descent would be a mere inconvenience is beyond belief. That only one rider was seriously injured is a minor miracle. I wonder if you've ever ridden a descent at race speed, let alone had to contend with a front wheel puncture at speed?

Causing an inconvenience is delaying the start, disrupting the presentation or blocking the course with barricades. 10mm tacks on the road is descending into the idiotic and downright irresponsible. How can they know that no one will be hurt or killed? It makes them no better than a football hooligan who throws coins at the pitch. In short a genius!

In fact I didn't realize this, until just now reading about it in la Gazzetta dello Sport. How horrible.

Condemnable without reserve. Basta.

PS: I probably erred in not carefully considering the impression that would have been made by my initial remark, under the heat of the moment and given as I was at the time to a state of unsympathetic indifference. Though I have never applauded the aggression in anything I said, nor would I. All of this, however, only makes more deplorable that such an event was allowed to take place in the first place, even if the initiative that led to the injury is unexcusable and as you state the work of a genius.

 

[rhubroma]

...

Again, where were them when the race was shaping out? Nowhere to be seen or heard, not surprisingly.
They're not there for the cause, they're there for the violence, as they were there for the manifestation against the high velocity train system, and on and on. These people have no business in civil protests. They hide behind a colored flag (and more often than not, behind a hood), and periodically ruin all of the protests organized by the peaceful advocates and groups.
I'm familiar with them, cause I've shared the streets and squares of plenty of manifestations with them before...

La Canaja, I apologize if some of my comments seemed insensitive to the relevant issues you brought up and I really don't think you are like the Lega ringleaders. Although a couple your statements were just the types of observations any one of them could have made to black-label and categorically vilify what was otherwise a legitimate form of protest. I was only making irony of this.

I'm well aware of how the TAV protests were at times uncivil and regrettable, though I often wonder who the "hooded" folks really are. For in Italy one never knows for sure. The majority of the protesters are usually just righteously outraged citizens making a peaceful demonstration against a political and industrial class that doesn't seem to give a damn about their opinions on matters which directly concern them. Even if in the case of the TAV, I'm honestly not sure if those civil protesters are necessarily being reasonable in their verdict and demands. I have enough doubt inside to admit to my own limitations of comprehension and judgment.

However, the covered heads, the so called Black Block, etc., I wonder who is all behind them, because they, yes, pass an activist group's image and mission from right to wrong by their violence and vandalism. Though they certainly don't act in the interests of the civil protesters, so what is their objective or purpose? Do they act merely on their own to irrevocably damage the entire protest? Or are they infiltrates egged on by those in power to do so and gain advantage by it?

Finally the Lega likes to provoke and offend and to invent a scandal. It seems to be their only political objective and platform from which to gain approval from a reactionary and uncivil party base membership. What is most regrettable is that neither the Italian Cycling Federation, nor the government (not even the opposition) in Rome did anything to prevent what would have surely led to the ugly situations that it predictably did. When, on top of it all, Italian cycling is suffering terribly from a bad image because of widespread doping.

So the Lega went too far, not surprisingly, and behaved awfully irresponsibly in organizing an event for its own propaganda that would have inevitably tarnished the whole of Italian cycling, as well as jeopardizing the safety of its own riders.

 

[Animal]

I know how bad the Lega Nord are. I lived in Italy for a while. In their heartlands, Milan, and some of the time in Mestre. One of my colleagues was quite involved in leftwing politics as a youngster and told me about his "direct actions" as a youth.

I think the person who compared them to this "Teaparty" bunch of mad hatters has it about right.