Basso and Nibali, united and divided by the Giro and Tour

[cineteq]

According to the presentation today, Nibali said he'll be happy to ride for Basso in the Giro. Voila there it goes any type of chance that Nibali has of winning the Tour What a waste of resources...

Perhaps Le Tour is more suitable to Nibali, since he's the better TT'er & with less MTF, he'll be fine there to make top 5. La Vuelta to me cannot suit either, since the parcours is more for an explosive rider, which neither of them is to compete against the likes of Anton & JRod.

Are you suggesting that Phil Gil has a chance?

 

[Eshnar]

Voila there it goes any type of chance that Nibali has of winning the Tour

The only chance he has of winning the Tour involves a huge crash with AC, Schleck, Evans, Menchov, Wiggins, and other 5 riders getting a broken leg.
If that happens, he definitely can win even after doing the Giro

 

[Greenflame]

Giro is quite obviously good for both of them. I don't dare to say which one of them would be the leader, but it would make for a very interesting Giro with the two of them against Rujano, Scarponi and whoever else decides to target it (the elder Schleck?).

Basso and Nibali could both win the Giro and/or Vuelta imo. Vuelta has a TTT which is free time on guys like Rodriguez and Anton and a TT where both would again win some time (even Basso does a better TT than Rodriguez). Furthermore both are not as bad on explosive finishes as people seem to think here. They'll lose some bonus seconds, sure, but not much more than that. Should Contador ride and have some form left after the Tour, then it's a different story of course.

The Tour.. Basso wouldn't stand a chance there, but Nibali has a decent shot at a top-5 and/or a stage. Hitch is right that there are some riders better than Nibali, but how likely is it all of them will be there in good form and not crash out? A top-5 position and a stage does not nearly compare to winning the Giro though.

I think I'd prefer for both of them to challenge the Giro. One of them can then go to the Tour to try his luck at some stages while helping Sagan and Viviani in the sprints, the other can prepare well for the Vuelta and see if a tired Alberto is beatable.

 

[Froome19]

2008. Menchov 5th Giro, 4th Tour. CVV training Giro, 5th Tour.

2009 Lance 12th Giro 3rd Tour. Wiggins training Giro, 4th Tour.

2010 Insanely hard Giro

2011 Insanely hard Giro

2012 Still very hard, but difficulty limited to about 3 stages at the end. Perhaps it will be possible.

I don't think that as riding as a domestique you are affected in the long term by the "insanely hard Giro" to ride the tour Its only when you ride for yourself like Wiggins (2010) Gadret, kreuziger, arroyo, contador,dupont, kiryenka.

IMO i would say that its getting harder & harder to do two grand tours (whatever the parcours) even as a domestique especially giro, tour and be effective in the tour at all.

I know it's not a 5th but are you completely discounting his 7th in '09 when most if not all of those guys were there and racing?

exactly he can't/won't do better than that

. La Vuelta to me cannot suit either, since the parcours is more for an explosive rider, which neither of them is to compete against the likes of Anton & JRod.

To be fair Anton & J rod both targeted the vuelta this year (which also did not have many tt km's and both flopped on any mountains over 6k or so (asides from angliru) whatever they can be made on the short climbs over basso/ even nibali will very probably be lost on the longer climbs and in the tt & TTT

 

[El Pistolero]

I don't think that as riding as a domestique you are affected in the long term by the "insanely hard Giro" to ride the tour Its only when you ride for yourself like Wiggins (2010) Gadret, kreuziger, arroyo, contador,dupont, kiryenka.

IMO i would say that its getting harder & harder to do two grand tours (whatever the parcours) even as a domestique especially giro, tour and be effective in the tour at all.



exactly he can't/won't do better than that


To be fair Anton & J rod both targeted the vuelta this year (which also did not have many tt km's and both flopped on any mountains over 6k or so (asides from angliru) whatever they can be made on the short climbs over basso/ even nibali will very probably be lost on the longer climbs and in the tt & TTT

Kidding I hope?

 

[hfer07]

Fine to make top 5? In front of who?

Menchov better tter and climber.
Evans better tter and climber.
Wiggins better tter, and not enough mountains.
Samu better tter and climber.
Andrew way better climber, same tter.

Then theres people like Gesink who is probably around the same in tts, JVDB whose not much worse, a few riders who could surprise, maybe also Frank,

And thats assuming Contador who will obviously finish ahead of Nibali otherwise, isnt there.

He can make top 5 but it would require an immense performance.

1-) The Best
2-) Cuddles
3-) The Pope
4-) SaSamu
5-) The Shark & Wiggo

 

[Gregory]

Basso is a very smart guy and excellent in protecting his own goals and interests inside all the teams he has ridden. I'm pretty sure, that he won't ride in support of anyone and he will be a leader in a race which will suit him better. When in 2009 Pelizotti proved stronger during the Giro, Basso didn't help him at all and instead tried to take a stage win for himself. While Nibali will support Ivan in the Giro, he will not receive any support in the Tour, because it will probably quickly prove unnecessary, as Nibali will probably quickly lose any chances for GC success. And even if he will hanging be around 5th place (his maximum potential), there will no responsibility or interest to Liquigas to push the tempo or drive the peloton, so Ivan may take it easy and maybe even bring home a nice prize: TdF stage win.
On the other hand, in the Giro, all the eyes will be on Liquigas and the domestics, including Nibali will be putting a hard work for Ivan.

 

[roundabout]

Have you seen the Tirreno? Basso went fairly well there on those ramps. Certainly no worse than Nibali.

In his last Vuelta he was one of the strongest on that steep hill where Taaramae came to a complete standstill.

I don't know. In a final sprint uphill he is likely to lose a few seconds here and there since he doesn't really have an extra gear anymore. With the over-generous bonuses it can be quite a lot of time to make up in the last 3km of the Bola, last 3km of the CN and the steepest part of the Ancares which isn't really long (at least from what I remember from last year).

On the plus side I suppose he is likely to have less competition in the big mountain stages in the Vuelta, but for a tempo-climber with excellent endurance those stages aren't really ideal.

 

[The Hitch]

1-) The Best
2-) Cuddles
3-) The Pope
4-) SaSamu
5-) The Shark & Wiggo

I would love it, just love it.

But life isnt always so kind

somebody will be here in a few minutes to tell u that he is an overated descender and a rider.

Somebody is banned for a month

 

[The Hitch]

I know it's not a 5th but are you completely discounting his 7th in '09 when most if not all of those guys were there and racing?

No, Im not discounting it, ive always hyped up that performance. He was actually the 6th best rider as Klodi got 1 min from a ttt.

But Cadel was a bit weak that year and lost mucho time in ttt, Menchov was post full out Giro and lost mucho time in ttt and Samu wasnt there.

Kidding I hope?

Yeah I was going to ask that too.

 

[Ryaguas]

IMO i would say that its getting harder & harder to do two grand tours (whatever the parcours) even as a domestique especially giro, tour and be effective in the tour at all.

Just ask it to Szmyd! He is always cooked in Le Tour after doing Il Giro!

Somebody is banned for a month

HA! hahaha poor Ryo! I miss him already!

 

[The Hitch]

Just ask it to Szmyd! He is always cooked in Le Tour after doing Il Giro!

Szmyd does Giro then race Dauphine for hisself then Le Tour and then 1 week later hes racing Pologne for hisself.

Dude is insane.

 

[greenedge]

I do not want Nibali to go to the Giro. The mountainous parcours suits Basso more ( he can match Scarponi ) i am not dissing him in the mountains though. If he did go he would then be useless at the TDF. Also at the Giro he would place too much pressure on the team to let him be leader ( as well as Basso )
He should go to the TDF after doing the Ardennes ( maybe do the Olympics ), then do the Vuelta ( either for GC or just prep for the WC ).

The funny thing about what Liquigas said is they would asses Nibalis' form after the Ardennes. But of course he shall be in good form as it is one of his goals for the year and we saw that in 10/ 11.
Maybe they mean they will choose him if he has bad form, so he can still build for the TDF ( CVV style )

 

[greenedge]

Just ask it to Szmyd! He is always cooked in Le Tour after doing Il Giro.

Last year he seemed fine at the TDF for Basso ( in the Pyrennes )

 

[just some guy]

Last year he seemed fine at the TDF for Basso ( in the Pyrennes )

No where did he destroy the field to swing off and let turbo Basso smash the field. No maybe Basso form was way off but Szmyd was not the Szmyd of 2010.

 

[Eshnar]

No where did he destroy the field to swing off and let turbo Basso smash the field. No maybe Basso form was way off but Szmyd was not the Szmyd of 2010.

Last year Szmyd wasn't fine at the Giro either. He made something only on Finestre.

 

[just some guy]

Last year Szmyd wasn't fine at the Giro either. He made something only on Finestre.

Agreed - but was responding to GreenEdge TDF statement - some of the not on Fire at the Giro comes back to Nibbles not being the same rider as Basso though imo

 

[the asian]

I don't know. In a final sprint uphill he is likely to lose a few seconds here and there since he doesn't really have an extra gear anymore. With the over-generous bonuses it can be quite a lot of time to make up in the last 3km of the Bola, last 3km of the CN and the steepest part of the Ancares which isn't really long (at least from what I remember from last year).

On the plus side I suppose he is likely to have less competition in the big mountain stages in the Vuelta, but for a tempo-climber with excellent endurance those stages aren't really ideal.

Agreed. Nibali is the more suited of the two for the Vuelta. However assuming Basso skips the tour and Nibali does it Basso would be the more fresher of the two.

It's a pity that Basso isn't too good on the short steep climbs. It limits the No of races he can win.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

That's for sure, the Basso 2006 would struggle to make top 10 in this Vuelta.

I missed the all too obvious sarcasm of this post.

Anyway, the Basso of 2010 could still top 5 in this Vuelta, if not reach the podium. Most of the 6 MTFs are not short climbs, anyway, and should suit him just fine if the pace is high enough.

I hope he goes for the Vuelta and not the Tour this year.

 

[cineteq]

Calendar for Vincenzo Nibali:

Tour San Luis (jan. 23-29), Tour of Oman (feb. 14-19), Giro del Friuli (mar. 1), Tirreno-Adriático (mar. 7-13), Milán-San Remo (mar. 17), Vuelta al País Vasco (apr. 2-7), Amstel Gold Race (apr. 15), Fleche Wallonne (apr. 18), Liege-Bastogne-Liege (apr. 22). At the end of this block of races, it will be decided if he rides Giro de Italia (may 5-27). Otherwise, he will go to Criterium Dauphiné (jun. 3-10) before Tour de France (jun. 30 - jul. 22).

Source: http://www.biciciclismo.com/cas/site/noticias-ficha.asp?id=46536

Nice to know!

 

[bicing]

I think it's fair enough that Liquigas look at the season to decide who will do what. It's a team after all, and they have to do what is in the best interests for the team.

Both riders have winning chances for the Giro. Basso's 2010 effort is the reminder of his ability to handle this course, as is Nibali's 2011 Giro.

I don't understand why people are talkin about the Vuelta, because clearly this is of secondary concern to Liquigas and these riders - they're not suited to the 2012 parcours. Period.

From a viewers perspective I'd like to see them both at the Giro because 2010 was awesome. Then I'd like to see Nibali go full tilt at the Tour, where I think he'd be able to top 5.

 

[cineteq]

Nibali hinted he won't be riding the Giro this year
"Si disputas el Giro, hacer el Tour bien no es posible…" ...
"De hecho, prefiero el recorrido del Tour porque los puertos son más largos con menos pendiente y el Giro son más cortos y explosivos"...

TRANS

"If you dispute the Giro, the Tour is not possible ..."
"I prefer the route of the Tour because the ports are longer, less steep whereas the Giro are shorter and explosive"

-----------

He thinks Basso will ride Il Giro and La Vueta.
"Ivan (Basso) hará el Giro y la Vuelta. No creo que haga el Tour"

TRANS

Ivan (Basso) will do il Giro and la Vuelta. I don't think he'll do the Tour."

Source: http://www.biciciclismo.com/cas/site/noticias-ficha.asp?id=46906

 

[luckyboy]

Yeah Basso is certainly better suited to the Giro than Nibali is.

Basso could do the Vuelta too, and possibly win that.

Says a lot about the race that it doesn't get discussed - in the Scarponi article, it isn't mentioned at all. Can't see him winning either of the other two anyway.

 

[stainlessguy1]

If Basso can peak just at the right time and not get burned in the classics assuming he rides them, then anything is possible , even for both tours.