Best Climber All Things Being Equal

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jens_attacks said:
modern cycling for me is after bernard tapie
we'll never know but just based on my feeling/instinct

pantani
quintana
lucho herrera
heras
contador
perico delgado
rasmussen
Bernard Tapie: true that Nanard revolutionized everything he touched, not always in a good way, but he sure did :D.
 
After Eddy (no Bahamontes, Gaul...), all things being equal:

1. Van Impe
2. Herrera
3. Quintana
4. Fuente
5. Contador
6. Delgado
7. Hampsten
8. Virenque
9. tie Hinault/LeMond

I don't know what to make of Pantani...
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Shamefull there isnt a single mentioning of Laurent Fignon 1984.

I would like to add my favourite Big Miguel Indurain, Hautacam 1994, La Plagne 1995: unstoppable. Outclimbing Pantani et all, who is the better climber then?
 
ciranda said:
What is understood about him is that tests always showed he had great physical talent. This plus dedication, intelligence, work ethic and singlemindedness means he would always be at the top. That he don't have results from Paris-Nice (if something like that is what is meant) or whatever means nothing.
Lance was singleminded too. It's a common trait in elite athletes of many sports - not just pro cycling. Yes we all know about Chicken's obsessive eating habits but when he was going on long range attacks to accumulate KOM points nobody took him seriously for the GC. That all changed in 2007 and we all know what happened. I mean his TT was almost embarrassing in 2006. Yet by the next year he was completely changed in that discipline. My impression is he would be nothing without dope - all things being equal.
 
Cookster15 said:
Lance was singleminded too. It's a common trait in elite athletes of many sports - not just pro cycling. Yes we all know about Chicken's obsessive eating habits but when he was going on long range attacks to accumulate KOM points nobody took him seriously for the GC. That all changed in 2007 and we all know what happened. I mean his TT was almost embarrassing in 2006. Yet by the next year he was completely changed in that discipline. My impression is he would be nothing without dope - all things being equal.
What TT did he go in to in 2006 where it made sense to go all out?
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Walkman said:
Care to elaborate?

Basso and Contador was both ridiculously strong in their hey-days. Why do you think Basso was more dope and Contador was more talent? :confused:
Well, since his suspension Contador has showed he could still produce results (with I'm assuming reduced preparation). He hasn't been able to pull off the type of sustained attacks (I'm confident he would have been able to do it this year at the TDF although you can argue if it's because he has stepped up his doping program again) he could before but he has showed he can still win or at least be at the absolute top.

Basso on the other hand gets dropped and his attacks have no real impact. Too me he is the type of rider that looks 'empty' without dope (or with clearly reduced doping). Doping gave him diesel climbing skills, he never had that natural attacking ability in the mountains.
 
Futuroscope said:
Well, since his suspension Contador has showed he could still produce results (with I'm assuming reduced preparation). He hasn't been able to pull off the type of sustained attacks (I'm confident he would have been able to do it this year at the TDF although you can argue if it's because he has stepped up his doping program again) he could before but he has showed he can still win or at least be at the absolute top.

Basso on the other hand gets dropped and his attacks have no real impact. Too me he is the type of rider that looks 'empty' without dope (or with clearly reduced doping). Doping gave him diesel climbing skills, he never had that natural attacking ability in the mountains.
Basso won the 2010 Giro with an attack on the Zoncolan that dropped everybody. His coach Aldo Sassi said he was clean then.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Cookster15 said:
Basso won the 2010 Giro with an attack on the Zoncolan that dropped everybody. His coach Aldo Sassi said he was clean then.
He was as clean as Alberto was that year. After that the bio-passport really started to have an effect and Basso couldn't do anything more.
 
Cookster15 said:
Lance was singleminded too. It's a common trait in elite athletes of many sports - not just pro cycling. Yes we all know about Chicken's obsessive eating habits but when he was going on long range attacks to accumulate KOM points nobody took him seriously for the GC. That all changed in 2007 and we all know what happened. I mean his TT was almost embarrassing in 2006. Yet by the next year he was completely changed in that discipline. My impression is he would be nothing without dope - all things being equal.
That impression is wrong, though. A time trial where someone crashes three times and the reserve bike is useless is not valid for comparison. A more valid comparison from the same year, 2005, is when Rasmussen won the stage to Mulhouse, exactly the same as this year, where he defended a lead for thirty km after the last mountain easily against Moreau and Voigt chasing. And as Netserk mentioned Rabobank told him not to use a transfusion on the second rest day.

Also, the 'all things being equal he would be nothing without doping' opinion for a cyclist in one of the periods with the heaviest drug use makes no sense.
 
Netserk said:
And how much of that do you think was down to all the crashes and stops? And the fact that he missed his second BB compared to the others.
Okay, I was not aware of the BB issue. That may help explain the crashes too - when you are struggling (which he clearly was) the likelihood of crashing is higher - particularly on a TT bike.

Anyhow to me this thread is a bit silly. How could we ever know " all things equal" - particularly in that era? I was a fan of Pantani is his hey day but if someone asked me "all things equal" how could I answer that?
 
Rasmussen had bad luck more than anything in the 2005 TT. I was sure back thenthat he was capable of doing much better, looking at the way he held off Moreau and Voigt when he won his stage earlier in the race.
 
ciranda said:
Also, the 'all things being equal he would be nothing without doping' opinion for a cyclist in one of the periods with the heaviest drug use makes no sense.
And that is why I think this thread makes no sense. Do we exclude 1991 (onset of EPO) to 2010 (bio passport taking effect)? Its impossible to know all things equal.
 
For **** sake, the guy tried artificial dog blood. Who knows what other messed up **** he was willing to try?

The guy won like 5 mountain top finishes in his whole career, but people still think that he was one of the best climbers ever?

Idiotic doesn't begin to describe it.
 
jens_attacks mentioned him. That was like his opinion.

Rasmussen smashed Contador. I don't know, I don't really do best ever charts. I liked Rasmussen as a cyclist, like Heras, Sevilla, Mancebo, Frigo, Landis, Hamilton etc.
 
Cookster15 said:
And that is why I think this thread makes no sense. Do we exclude 1991 (onset of EPO) to 2010 (bio passport taking effect)? Its impossible to know all things equal.
You're welcome :D.

Try to look at it the other way: how would a EPO loaded Van Impe have fared against the '98-'99 Pantani? 'Impossible to know' for sure, yet it is possible to come up with some sort of educated guess. And there's a lot of brainpower on this site.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Rasmussen would be a non-factor without doping or with much reduced preparation. He wouldn't be able to do anything with the bio-passport in full effect. There is no natural engine. Same thing with Pantani.
 
May 11, 2014
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Futuroscope said:
Rasmussen would be a non-factor without doping or with much reduced preparation. He wouldn't be able to do anything with the bio-passport in full effect. There is no natural engine. Same thing with Pantani.
So EPO and blood doping is most beneficial to riders with very thin builds, but larger, stronger men like Landis and Hampsten would smash them if everyone was clean?
 
roundabout said:
For **** sake, the guy tried artificial dog blood. Who knows what other messed up **** he was willing to try?

The guy won like 5 mountain top finishes in his whole career, but people still think that he was one of the best climbers ever?

Idiotic doesn't begin to describe it.
Rasmussen's preferred blood donor:

 
Jul 9, 2009
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Amazinmets73 said:
So EPO and blood doping is most beneficial to riders with very thin builds, but larger, stronger men like Landis and Hampsten would smash them if everyone was clean?
In my opinion that is often the case. With a cleaner sport you see more diesel climbers at the top. There would still be mountain goats but they wouldn't dominate mountain stage after mountain stage.

Then you of course have freaks such as Quintana.
 

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