Best climbers in history?

[doperhopper]

Gutsy attacker award

There was an interesting point raised at the beginning of this thread - that in order to qualify to be "real climber" one has to be able to launch a proper attack, not just storm the last climb.

How many GT contenders are worth this "gutsy attacker" award in the "postmodern" era (say, 1990+)? It was quite common until Fignon/Lemond times, but later... I know, there were many years "lost" in this sense during BigMig and Uniballer era, but maybe we can find a few.

Not sure if Pantani counts (Landis surely not), so the winner can be Andy's Izoard+Galibier attack (though not completely "pure", as there was obviously the team tactics element involved - otherwise he would not survive). At least in Tour, maybe more in Giro/Vuelta. Real GT contenders only (i.e. probably not Contador attacking on Galibier+Alpe, he knew he was out).

 

[The Hitch]

Not sure if Pantani counts (Landis surely not), so the winner can be Andy's Izoard+Galibier attack (though not completely "pure", as there was obviously the team tactics element involved - otherwise he would not survive). At least in Tour, maybe more in Giro/Vuelta. Real GT contenders only (i.e. probably not Contador attacking on Galibier+Alpe, he knew he was out).

Contadors attack was gutsy. For one he had to go through a lot of pain to do it. Lots of arguably pointless pain as the stage win was unlikely and the gc was over.

It takes a lot of mental strenght to keep it going too.

Secondly he wanted the Alpe stage win, but screwed his chances of that by attacking 96k out instead.

 

[Maxiton]

luis ocana.

but really putting pantani, armstrong, contador, heras and rasmussen, or basically anyone post-1990 on this list is ridiculous and pointless and begs the question -- how would you ever really know?

That's really an excellent point because irrefutable. Put in an earlier era, shall we say, some of those guys might not be able to climb at all (or not very well, at least). Problem is, it's also unanswerable. We are, alas, stuck with them and their performances as they are, or were, and second-guessing isn't going to get us very far. Ergo, back to square one.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

maybe we should have 2 polls to separate the climbers from the performance enhancing doping era (e.g. post 1990) from the 'pain-killing' doping era (e.g. pre-1990-ish). If we did that, it would not make much difference in the younger group, but from the older group of Merckx, Gaul, Bahamontes, Bartali, Coppi, Van Impe, etc., I would give the nod to:
1. Gaul
2. Bahamontes

 

[LaFlorecita]

There was an interesting point raised at the beginning of this thread - that in order to qualify to be "real climber" one has to be able to launch a proper attack, not just storm the last climb.

How many GT contenders are worth this "gutsy attacker" award in the "postmodern" era (say, 1990+)? It was quite common until Fignon/Lemond times, but later... I know, there were many years "lost" in this sense during BigMig and Uniballer era, but maybe we can find a few.

Not sure if Pantani counts (Landis surely not), so the winner can be Andy's Izoard+Galibier attack (though not completely "pure", as there was obviously the team tactics element involved - otherwise he would not survive). At least in Tour, maybe more in Giro/Vuelta. Real GT contenders only (i.e. probably not Contador attacking on Galibier+Alpe, he knew he was out).

Schleck needed to take lots of time, hence his attack. Before his attack he could also be considered "out". So does that one count? No, I would say.

 

[McLovin]

In Giro 08 he beat Ricco

2008 giro
stage 7 - contador + 6"
stage 8 - ricco w - contador st
stage 14 - contador + 36"
stage 15 - contador + 16"
stage 19 - contado + 37"
stage 20 - st - contador showed that he learned a lot from evans in 2007 tour

yes, contador was the best climber that year.

 

[Spaniard]

2008 giro
stage 7 - contador + 6"
stage 8 - ricco w - contador st
stage 14 - contador + 36"
stage 15 - contador + 16"
stage 19 - contado + 37"
stage 20 - st - contador showed that he learned a lot from evans in 2007 tour

yes, contador was the best climber that year.

Not so bad for a guy who was told to ride the giro a couple of weeks earlier while he was sunbathing on the beach

 

[McLovin]

Not so bad for a guy who was told to ride the giro a couple of weeks earlier when he was sunbathing on the beach

what do you think cyclist do between the races? get fat? grow a pair of tits and a respectable chin? I think this 'from the beach' thing is very arguable. He won Vuelta a Castilla y Leon and the Vuelta al País Vasco just before, so, it wasn't complete 'from the beach'

 

[Spaniard]

what do you think cyclist do between the races? get fat? grow a pair of tits and a respectable chin? I think this 'from the beach' thing is very arguable. He won Vuelta a Castilla y Leon and the Vuelta al País Vasco just before, so, it wasn't complete 'from the beach'

So In your point of view, Contador was in top shape in that Giro? He didn't peak for the Giro and a cyclist also need to be mentally prepared for riding during three weeks, not adviced some days before the race take part.

 

[McLovin]

So In your point of view, Contador was in top shape in that Giro? He didn't peak for the Giro and a cyclist also need to be mentally prepared for riding during three weeks, not adviced some days before the race take part.

I know what you mean. I'm not sayin' he was in top form, but the most dificult stages were in last 3-4 days, so he might peaked. We can say that he got two Dauphine's stuck together for preparation of the third week.
Look at Kloeden in 2006 Tour, he was in some similar situation, he went to sleep as an offshape gregario and woke as an offshape captain . He was weak in Pyrenees and got fabulous in the Alpes.

 

[Von Mises]

Merckx is in the poll. Fuente outclimbed him. Merckx feared him in the mountains. Fuente simply wasn't good enough against the clock or in the flats to deal with the Cannibal. He won a number of stages by going three or four climbs from the finish and not being seen again. But if you think he was just going for the stages in the 1974 Giro you really need to check again. He was minutes down on Merckx, and took most of them back, but ultimately several days of multiple mountain raids on your own catches up with you. Yet Merckx is in the poll (and rightfully so) but the guy who outclimbed him is not worthy of consideration for a discussion of climbers?

There were also plenty of mountain stages when Merckx beat Fuente. You just cannot take account only these stages where Fuente was best, but you have to look overall picture. In 1972 Giro, for instance, Fuente got Rosa after TTT, but lost it to Merckx in mountains. Funete was occasionaly stronger than Merckx, but Fuente quite often was not marked so tightly than Merckx and quite often Funete was also pretty weak in mountains. Merckx had longer seasons, he raced more races, he had different objectives, when Fuente(and this applies to Ocana too) were more selective and concentrated on few races.

 

[El Pistolero]

I know what you mean. I'm not sayin' he was in top form, but the most dificult stages were in last 3-4 days, so he might peaked. We can say that he got two Dauphine's stuck together for preparation of the third week.
Look at Kloeden in 2006 Tour, he was in some similar situation, he went to sleep as an offshape gregario and woke as an offshape captain . He was weak in Pyrenees and got fabulous in the Alpes.

He had a crack in his elbow and was only told a week in advance he could start. Contador likes sitting at a beach. Try having a interview with him after a GT or during a GT. 9 out of 10 times he'll mention the beach and the "holidays".

Contador's next goal would have been the Dauphiné Libereré, so it's not impossible he was at the beach after Castila y Leon.

 

[Moncoutie]

You don't see attacks like this anymore. My climbing legend and the reason I follow this flawed sport The great Robert Millar (watch the 1st minute even if you are not a Millar fan or if you don't even know him)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsjWOiBtQTc

My favourite attack of all time!

 

[Angliru]

There was an interesting point raised at the beginning of this thread - that in order to qualify to be "real climber" one has to be able to launch a proper attack, not just storm the last climb.

How many GT contenders are worth this "gutsy attacker" award in the "postmodern" era (say, 1990+)? It was quite common until Fignon/Lemond times, but later... I know, there were many years "lost" in this sense during BigMig and Uniballer era, but maybe we can find a few.

Not sure if Pantani counts (Landis surely not), so the winner can be Andy's Izoard+Galibier attack (though not completely "pure", as there was obviously the team tactics element involved - otherwise he would not survive). At least in Tour, maybe more in Giro/Vuelta. Real GT contenders only (i.e. probably not Contador attacking on Galibier+Alpe, he knew he was out).

Andy's attack was meant to draw out his opponents, allowing Frank to capitalize on their efforts and hopefully drop Evans, ideally winning the stage and snatching yellow. It all was a direct result of Andy losing time on a previous stage's rainy descent. Lacking imagination and once again due to shortcomings that rose to the surface prior to another pivotal Alpert d'Huez stage, his attack was an act of desperation and bravery that worked better than he planned. At the start of that stage Andy knew he had already lost the
knowing the ITT was looming ahead.

 

[jordan5000]

Contador lost one minute and 22 seconds on the cobbled stage in the Tour of 2010. Otherwise Schleck would have never been in yellow and never in contention for the win. Contador was stuck behind Frank's crash and broke his rear spook at the end causing him to lose an additional 10 seconds to the group he was with. Schleck gained exactly 0 seconds on Contador in the mountains.

Andy never won the Tour and never will.

You can't say Andy will never win the tour, tell me how many people predicted Armstrong to win the tour before 1999? How many picked Cadel this year? Not many. It'll be Andy vs Contador next year and I think 2012 will be the year he finally gets the better of Contador, he was better this year and remember that on stage 15 in 2010 Contador had A LOT of trouble responding to Andy's attack before his chain came off.

 

[icefire]

How can a rider be the best climber of a race if he loses it for not being able to shift gears going uphill?

 

[The Hitch]

You can't say Andy will never win the tour, tell me how many people predicted Armstrong to win the tour before 1999? How many picked Cadel this year? Not many. It'll be Andy vs Contador next year and I think 2012 will be the year he finally gets the better of Contador, he was better this year and remember that on stage 15 in 2010 Contador had A LOT of trouble responding to Andy's attack before his chain came off.

Its a shame Pisti gave you a way in with the stupid "Andy will never win the Tour" comment because the rest of what you say isnt great.

To say Schleck was better than Contador is stupid considering what Contador did in the Giro.

Also bear in mind that if you take away the Mont Allesouts screwjob where Contador actually finished AHEAD of Schleck but lost 1 and a half minutes due to stupid rules, he would have been very close to Schleck, and thats after several crashes (including one that seriously hurt his knee) and the Giro.

So there is absolutely nothing from this years Tour to suggest Andy can get within 5 minutes of Contador.

As to Contador having trouble responding to Schlecks attack, umm schleck attacked about 5 seconds before his chain came off. No one yet responded. there is nothing to suggest Schleck could maintain yet alone gain any sort of advantage on that climb.

 

[El Pistolero]

You can't say Andy will never win the tour, tell me how many people predicted Armstrong to win the tour before 1999? How many picked Cadel this year? Not many. It'll be Andy vs Contador next year and I think 2012 will be the year he finally gets the better of Contador, he was better this year and remember that on stage 15 in 2010 Contador had A LOT of trouble responding to Andy's attack before his chain came off.

He didn't have an trouble at all. First of all, Andy's attack was stupid with the descend coming. Second of all, Contador wasn't in his wheel and was caught by surprise but would have quickly closed the gap. Even Vino could close the gap And Vino finished behind Contador that stage

This year was Andy's only chance of winning the Tour. Contador already did the Giro thus was tired. Contador lost more than a minute on the first stage and crashed a lot. And yet... There's barely a time gap between them. If he couldn't do it this year then he won't beat an in form Contador.

Schleck, most overrated climber.

 

[jens_attacks]

andy is one of the most talented climbers i've witnessed.of course he tries to hide it every tour it seems

 

[jordan5000]

He didn't have an trouble at all. First of all, Andy's attack was stupid with the descend coming. Second of all, Contador wasn't in his wheel and was caught by surprise but would have quickly closed the gap. Even Vino could close the gap And Vino finished behind Contador that stage

This year was Andy's only chance of winning the Tour. Contador already did the Giro thus was tired. Contador lost more than a minute on the first stage and crashed a lot. And yet... There's barely a time gap between them. If he couldn't do it this year then he won't beat an in form Contador.

Schleck, most overrated climber.

Watch the video again, from the time Schleck's chain drops it takes Contador four seconds of attacking to catch up, yes that's right, he already has a gap of 4 seconds. And don't say "he had that gap because he got caught by surprise" it takes about half a second to read and react in a situation and that's not an overreaction that's the truth.

 

[jordan5000]

andy is one of the most talented climbers i've witnessed.of course he tries to hide it every tour it seems

Andy is the third best climber I've ever seen behind Contador and Armstrong, granted I've only been watching from about 2005 or so.

 

[El Pistolero]

Watch the video again, from the time Schleck's chain drops it takes Contador four seconds of attacking to catch up, yes that's right, he already has a gap of 4 seconds. And don't say "he had that gap because he got caught by surprise" it takes about half a second to read and react in a situation and that's not an overreaction that's the truth.

That post made no sense lol.

You can see clearly in the vid when Contador reacts. Andy would have never gotten away, he lost most of his time on the DESCEND.

 

[jordan5000]

That post made no sense lol.

You can see clearly in the vid when Contador reacts. Andy would have never gotten away, he lost most of his time on the DESCEND.

Actually the post does make sense, Andy is basically standing still for 4 seconds before Contador passes him, my point is Contador didn't jump straight onto his wheel, he was struggling a bit.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Watch the video again, from the time Schleck's chain drops it takes Contador four seconds of attacking to catch up, yes that's right, he already has a gap of 4 seconds. And don't say "he had that gap because he got caught by surprise" it takes about half a second to read and react in a situation and that's not an overreaction that's the truth.

He was far back. As ElPistolero said, Vino closed the gap. VINO. This is exactly what I've been telling my parents and brother and boyfriend. Why were so many people angry over that? Even Vino could keep up with Andy. Your attack can't be that good if Vino can close the gap to you.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Actually the post does make sense, Andy is basically standing still for 4 seconds before Contador passes him, my point is Contador didn't jump straight onto his wheel, he was struggling a bit.

Contador came up fast. Andy would have had a 5-10s gap at the top max. (This is if Contador would not catch him before the top.) And Contador could have easily made up that difference in the descend.