Best climbers in history?

[42x16ss]

.............................................................................

Love it!!!!

The more I read through this thread, the more I am convinced that it is proudly presented by the letters B, P and C

 

[la.margna]

Piepoli
Lucio Herrera
Pantani
Rominger

 

[ultimobici]

You make a valid point but Armstrong's period of dominance was quite long compared to Pantani's, which if you take away 98 really isn't much at all. I know, I know you can't take away one season but my point is that if you take away the best season for each then Armstrong is far ahead due to a longer period of excellence. As for his team, I can't really penalize him for something he doesn't control, you take the best team available when you can and the fact is that if someone wanted to they could have attacked Armstrong which likely would have shed some of his support riders and then went one on one with Armstrong to prove who is best. As for your point about longer, multi-col attacks I agree but I'd still value 2-3 final climb attacks as the same as a multi-col attack unless the latter was something truly spectacular.

FFS!!!????

I am not questioning LA's dominance of the Ride round France, nor his tactics in winning said jaunt around the Hexgon.

What I am trying to impart to you is that he was far from the best climber. If his 7 wins are the measure of his climbing prowess then Indurain should be up there ahead of Coppi, Bartali, Van Impe & Bahamontes. But he's not. The simple reason is he was the best at limiting his losses and consolidating his lead elsewhere.

Armstrong's single 1999 win in the mountains netted him a mere 31".

2000 saw a grand total of zero stage wins outside the final TT. But in fairness he did make his famous attack in pursuit of Otxoa, in which he gained a couple of minutes over his nearest rivals and more over others. ANd there was the audacious attack on the Ventoux which culminated in his "gift" to Pantani & 30 seconds or so over his rivals.

2001 saw him take a couple of minutes at Alpe d'Huez & a minute at Pla d'Adet.

2002 & he takes a few seconds at La Mongie, a minute at Plateau de Beille but still no memorable multi pass attack.

Face it LA was one of the greatest Tour strategists, or at least USPS & Bruyneel were. As for his climbing credentials, they're not that impressive when held up to the light against the riders I have mentioned. Coppi, Merckx, Bahamontes, Van Impe & Gaul. All of them went out on their own & decimated the field with their climbing, alone & frequently from distances of 100km or more and multiple passes.

 

[peloton]

Am I the only one who keeps thinking of the same three letters every time I read one of this guy's posts???

No, you're not.
Guys, don't feed the troll, thanks.

 

[Von Mises]

As for his climbing credentials, they're not that impressive when held up to the light against the riders I have mentioned. Coppi, Merckx, Bahamontes, Van Impe & Gaul. All of them went out on their own & decimated the field with their climbing, alone & frequently from distances of 100km or more and multiple passes.

Well, I have never seen Contador going out from distances 100 km or more and multiple passes, still Contador holds second place in this poll.

 

[personal]

Just my 2 cents here, Armstrong was the best, he proved that in mountain TTs and with crippling attacks, nobody dominated the tour for as long as he did. You can say riders like Pantani have won the giro-tour double, do you really think Armstrong couldn't have done that, considering he won all his tours by 6 minutes? Armstrong dominated the tour in a way that only Merckx did before him, and nobody has since. He's the only person who can say he was undefeated in the tour for 7 years, only person who can say so for more than 5 years. Contador didn't dominate any tour, even in 2009 he won by only about 3 minutes and when you consider that Schleck is a poor time trialist that diminshes the value of the margin. Consider the fact that Armstrong beat Ullrich, who was a great time trialist and climber by 6 minutes+ in multiple tours. Lance also won 3 straight stages in the mountains, who was the last guy to do that? Who was the last guy to win 4 stages in the mountains in a tour, and in only 6 or 7 mountain stages? Say what you want but Lance was the best, he destroyed the best in his time and it was more impressive because rather than riding someone's wheel all day and not attacking (yes, I'm looking at you Alberto) he attacked in yellow to gain a greater margin of victory, Armstrong wasn't content with victory, he wanted to dominate and he did, and that's why he's the best climber ever.

Please, try telling that people in the proper subforum - The Clinic.
You'll learn a lot about Armstrong and his wins there.

 

[Walkman]

Please, try telling that people in the proper subforum - The Clinic.
You'll learn a lot about Armstrong and his wins there.

Are you for real!? In that case, this may be the most idiotic post ever on this forum. Do you, for a second, think that Pantani, Heras, Rasmussen, Contador and Merckx raced clean while LA doped?

And by the way, the question is rhetorical since this is not the clinic.

 

[personal]

Are you for real!? In that case, this may be the most idiotic post ever on this forum. Do you, for a second, think that Pantani, Heras, Rasmussen, Contador and Merckx raced clean while LA doped?

And by the way, the question is rhetorical since this is not the clinic.

Yes, I am for real.
It seems you should read about Armstrong's programs (and how and why they were better then others') too.

It is the stuff that realy made his climbing as it was and therefore it can not be ignored in "best climber" discussion.

 

[SiAp1984]

Yes, I am for real.
It seems you should read about Armstrong's programs (and how and why they were better then others') too.

It is the stuff that realy made his climbing as it was and therefore it can not be ignored in "best climber" discussion.

Off-topic, isn't it?

I wonder if Basso should be included in the list for his 2006 Giro performance... and maybe for 2010, even if tht competition was mediocre... But then I guess his recent performances at Le Tour were just not strong enough...

 

[El Pistolero]

Well, I have never seen Contador going out from distances 100 km or more and multiple passes, still Contador holds second place in this poll.

This year at Gardeccia stage in the Giro. And at Alpe Dhuez at the Tour this year. He made some long range attacks at Briançon stage of the Tour in 2007. In the final stage of Paris-Nice he won the stage from a long solo attack that saw him rewarded with the maillot jaune.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Well, I have never seen Contador going out from distances 100 km or more and multiple passes, still Contador holds second place in this poll.

Which tells you a lot about this poll in general...
It's not really worth discussing this poll, it has gone in the very wrong direction right from the start.

 

[McLovin]

This year at Gardeccia stage in the Giro. And at Alpe Dhuez at the Tour this year. He made some long range attacks at Briançon stage of the Tour in 2007. In the final stage of Paris-Nice he won the stage from a long solo attack that saw him rewarded with the maillot jaune.

in 2007 he attacked in last km i think, on Galibier. From top of Galibier to Briancon you won't find a single meter uphill. This year when he attacked on Telegraphe he was making surplace on final kms and was defeated by Mr. Nobody. Easily I say. You can't say this stage was a classic. I myself can atack on first km and end up last, so i'm a classic?

 

[El Pistolero]

in 2007 he attacked in last km i think, on Galibier. From top of Galibier to Briancon you won't find a single meter uphill. This year when he attacked on Telegraphe he was making surplace on final kms and was defeated by Mr. Nobody. Easily I say. You can't say this stage was a classic. I myself can atack on first km and end up last, so i'm a classic?

Did you ever watch cycling?

The stage at Briançon is where Soler won in 2007. Contador counter attacked and was going to catch Soler, but he had a flat tire and was reeled back in.

Alpe Dhuez stage WAS a classic. In modern cycling those long range attacks are practically impossible because the control in the peloton is stronger now, but to say Contador has never done it is completely false. He also did it in the last stage of the 2009 Paris-Nice.

Besides, if Contador didn't ride the Giro he'd have destroyed that Mr Nobody of yours. And Contador climbed faster than Pierre Rolland up Alpe Dhuez, if you didn't know.

You yourself can't even hold Contador's wheel on a little hill like the Poggio let alone a climb

Give Contador a Grand Tour with mountain stages like in the 70s and you'd see something else.

Guys like Lucien van Impe performed only well at the Tour and sometimes a different GT. Contador performs well the entire season.

 

[personal]

Off-topic, isn't it?

I wonder if Basso should be included in the list for his 2006 Giro performance... and maybe for 2010, even if tht competition was mediocre... But then I guess his recent performances at Le Tour were just not strong enough...

Well, not realy.

Opening tread like this and then pushing hard for Armstrong is inviting... certain things.

 

[webvan]

Voted for Pantani but this poll should probably broken down into eras, that would have made room for Simoni, Jimenez, Millar and Delgado and what about Van Impe !

 

[McLovin]

Did you ever watch cycling?
The stage at Briançon is where Soler won in 2007. Contador counter attacked and was going to catch Soler, but he had a flat tire and was reeled back in.

so now you're telling me about terrain around briancon, the place where i spent all my hollydays in last years? If you read more carefully what I said you'll see that I said that it wasn't big deal that atack (in kms's, as you sustain) as it was only 35 km's of descent.
And Alpe stage, again...it was a brave atack, but nopthing classic to see there. the guy got dropped by a gregario.
you spanish muchachos are very dificult to talk with. be more objective. I am from a country that never gave and never will give a tour participant, and I'm ok with that.I think I can see things more as they are. enjoy cycling, enjoy this miraculos sport, leave away the flags and nationalism, at least on the forum. We are here to talk, not to show how cool my neighbor is. in the end, you and I have nothing to win, just the joy of a big show.

 

[Duartista]

Did you ever watch cycling?

The stage at Briançon is where Soler won in 2007. Contador counter attacked and was going to catch Soler, but he had a flat tire and was reeled back in.

Alpe Dhuez stage WAS a classic. In modern cycling those long range attacks are practically impossible because the control in the peloton is stronger now, but to say Contador has never done it is completely false. He also did it in the last stage of the 2009 Paris-Nice.

Besides, if Contador didn't ride the Giro he'd have destroyed that Mr Nobody of yours. And Contador climbed faster than Pierre Rolland up Alpe Dhuez, if you didn't know.

You yourself can't even hold Contador's wheel on a little hill like the Poggio let alone a climb

Give Contador a Grand Tour with mountain stages like in the 70s and you'd see something else.

Guys like Lucien van Impe performed only well at the Tour and sometimes a different GT. Contador performs well the entire season.

In general I agree with you, although there have been signs this year that such attacks may be possible again, with mountain domestiques no longer able to set up a train over multiple mountains.

Are you sure about Contador getting a flat tyre in that stage? I think he was simply caught on the descent.

 

[McLovin]

Are you sure about Contador getting a flat tyre in that stage? I think he was simply caught on the descent.

he got a flat tyre at Tignes, the day before.

 

[El Pistolero]

he got a flat tyre at Tignes, the day before.

Also the day after if my memory serves correct.

Ps: I'm not Spanish. And I know there was a lot of descend after that stage, that only makes the attack more brave.

 

[SiAp1984]

Well, not realy.

Opening tread like this and then pushing hard for Armstrong is inviting... certain things.

C'mon. As was mentioned before, everybody pushing for AC is doint literally the same. This thread is only about climing I guess.

Another interesting thing: For every mountain stage AC does not dominate - and there have been quite a few in the last two years, leaving aside a Giro where a lot of the great guys weren't there - there is a nice excuse: He was tired; he got a flat tire; he tried so hard to drop the guy in yellow that he ran out of power in the last km but of course he was better; he gave away the win (whigh he occasionally really did, no doubt); etc. (btw. next time that happens, how about: His bike was a lot heavier than the bikes of the others becaus ehe loves vintage steel bikes; he obviously had a chat with some spectators in the climb and could not catch up again; he wanted to enjoy the beauty of the mountains all alone behind the favorites group (e.g. this year in the AS-dominated stage) and so on...)

Truth is: There are a couple of - not many - riders in the world which can crack AC on a climb. That does not mean, that he isn't a great climber, though. He certainly is. But he is not unbeatable. That lacks him to the class of Armstrong (pre-comeback, of course).

 

[McLovin]

he is vegetarian now so he has less protein
he was riding the giro in spring
he was thinkin to much about who shot J.R.
he was riding the giro in spring
he had flat tire from begining but his car was way behind
he just found out who shot J.R
he had a nightmare last night
he was riding the giro last year in spring
he had a fight with riss
he was in the tour just to prepare the next giro
but we all know, that if it wouldn't be all this he would have crushed all by 15 minutes.

 

[Duartista]

C'mon. As was mentioned before, everybody pushing for AC is doint literally the same. This thread is only about climing I guess.

Another interesting thing: For every mountain stage AC does not dominate - and there have been quite a few in the last two years, leaving aside a Giro where a lot of the great guys weren't there - there is a nice excuse: He was tired; he got a flat tire; he tried so hard to drop the guy in yellow that he ran out of power in the last km but of course he was better; he gave away the win (whigh he occasionally really did, no doubt); etc. (btw. next time that happens, how about: His bike was a lot heavier than the bikes of the others becaus ehe loves vintage steel bikes; he obviously had a chat with some spectators in the climb and could not catch up again; he wanted to enjoy the beauty of the mountains all alone behind the favorites group (e.g. this year in the AS-dominated stage) and so on...)

Truth is: There are a couple of - not many - riders in the world which can crack AC on a climb. That does not mean, that he isn't a great climber, though. He certainly is. But he is not unbeatable. That lacks him to the class of Armstrong (pre-comeback, of course).

This was more or less true of Armstrong too, though. You had the Pantani/Heras pincer movement dropping him in 2000 on the Joux Plane, Mayo and others 2003, then 2004-5 Basso was his equal on the climbs. That's without mentioning other races. Contador has Anton, Schleck, Rujano who can challenge him on their day, but on peak form, needing to win, I wouldn't bet against him - as was the case with Armstrong.

 

[jordan5000]

~edited by mod~

Anyways, Armstrong was practically unbeatable during his 1999-2005 years, Ullrich didn't wear yellow once in that time period, which is truly remarkable. I also don't remember a tour when Armstrong didn't win 2 stages and at least 1 in the mountains (please correct me if I'm wrong). As previously stated, Lance was only cracked once in his prime, Contador has cracked at least once in his prime (this year). Armstrong was so strong that he could go to the front, attack, and dare the rider behind to hold his back wheel (example: Alpe D'huez 2001) and he had a similar situation to Schleck in 2010 when he was hit by a spectator in 2003 on Luz-Ardennes and then had problems with his pedals and still won the stage. Ullrich also never won a mountain stage from 1999-2005, and neither did Joseba Beloki. Quite simply Armstrong destroyed the field at the tour, yes he does lose points for not doing the Giro, and a tiny bit for not doing the Vuelta, but he dominated the world's toughest race like nobody else did, and that gets him first for me.

Also I don't care how brave an attack is if it doesn't yield results, as I said before I value a final mountain attack that gains 4 minutes over a multi-mountain one that gains 2 minutes, effectiveness is key and the most important factor in evaluating an attack.

 

[Duartista]

Anyone pushing hard for Pantani, Armstrong or Contador brings up clinic issues, not just Armstrong. Also he didn't test positive when many others did, so either it's a cover up or he's clean.

Anyways, Armstrong was practically unbeatable during his 1999-2005 years, Ullrich didn't wear yellow once in that time period, which is truly remarkable. I also don't remember a tour when Armstrong didn't win 2 stages and at least 1 in the mountains (please correct me if I'm wrong). As previously stated, Lance was only cracked once in his prime, Contador has cracked at least once in his prime (this year). Armstrong was so strong that he could go to the front, attack, and dare the rider behind to hold his back wheel (example: Alpe D'huez 2001) and he had a similar situation to Schleck in 2010 when he was hit by a spectator in 2003 on Luz-Ardennes and then had problems with his pedals and still won the stage. Ullrich also never won a mountain stage from 1999-2005, and neither did Joseba Beloki. Quite simply Armstrong destroyed the field at the tour, yes he does lose points for not doing the Giro, and a tiny bit for not doing the Vuelta, but he dominated the world's toughest race like nobody else did, and that gets him first for me.

Also I don't care how brave an attack is if it doesn't yield results, as I said before I value a final mountain attack that gains 4 minutes over a multi-mountain one that gains 2 minutes, effectiveness is key and the most important factor in evaluating an attack.

What about a multi-mountain attack that gains 8 minutes, such as this: http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/eta_tdf_1947_1977/tdf1969_17.php or this: http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/05/road/50-years-later-remembering-charly-gauls-great-ride_9906?

And Armstrong was cracked twice in his TDF prime.

 

[Mich78BEL]

Bartali/Coppi/Bahamontes/Van Impe

Contador or Pantani don't compare