Best climbers in history?

[Le breton]

He gave a stage away to Basso in the 2004 Tour in La Mongie. At least it was clear to me.

That one to Pantani He did not try to sprint. Your logic is good but at least on TV it looked like he eased off to let Pantani win.

IMHO.

There is something fundamentally wrong with this thread.
Obviously a best climber, best at everything, does not exist.
At my modest level people would consider me as a climber, but what I see is that on long races (cyclosportives), with several passes and many hours of effort, I very often used to finish well ahead of other cyclists who were much better climbers than I was on ONE CLIMB ( I am talking about 10% and more difference in VAM!!!)

(Either I was better trained or had more endurance, probably the latter most often).

The same has to be true among professionals.
Let's consider the pre-EPO period.

The more obvious example was Bahamontes-Gaul.
On a single climb, Ventoux 58 notwithstanding, Baha was a better climber than Gaul.
Yet on multiple climbs stages Baha never pulled the astounding performances of Gaul.
The reason I exclude Ventoux 58 is that Gaul on that day probably put his life on the line to win (he disappeared for a long time into an ambulance after passing the line) and did only 31 sec better than Baha.*

In the EPO period you have a guy like Virenque who was not near the top on single climbs but was always there for long epic rides in the mountains.

I am sure all of you can find similar examples.

I guess the initiator of the thread, not being accustomed to cycling competitevely in the mountains was blind to this, but I am really surprised nobody else raised that point.

* I would not be surprised if someone would invoque similar reasons for the defeat of Herrera (J-F Bernard won) on Ventoux in 87. Jeff climbed Ventoux in 58:08 that day. The stage had started in Carpentras, not Bédoin. Then the record passed to Vaughters in 1999 and Iban Mayo in 2004.

 

[jordan5000]

There is something fundamentally wrong with this thread.
Obviously a best climber, best at everything, does not exist.
At my modest level people would consider me as a climber, but what I see is that on long races (cyclosportives), with several passes and many hours of effort, I very often used to finish well ahead of other cyclists who were much better climbers than I was on ONE CLIMB ( I am talking about 10% and more difference in VAM!!!)

(Either I was better trained or had more endurance, probably the latter most often).

The same has to be true among professionals.
Let's consider the pre-EPO period.

The more obvious example was Bahamontes-Gaul.
On a single climb, Ventoux 58 notwithstanding, Baha was a better climber than Gaul.
Yet on multiple climbs stages Baha never pulled the astounding performances of Gaul.
The reason I exclude Ventoux 58 is that Gaul on that day probably put his life on the line to win (he disappeared for a long time into an ambulance after passing the line) and did only 31 sec better than Baha.*

In the EPO period you have a guy like Virenque who was not near the top on single climbs but was always there for long epic rides in the mountains.

I am sure all of you can find similar examples.

I guess the initiator of the thread, not being accustomed to cycling competitevely in the mountains was blind to this, but I am really surprised nobody else raised that point.

* I would not be surprised if someone would invoque similar reasons for the defeat of Herrera (J-F Bernard won) on Ventoux in 87. Jeff climbed Ventoux in 58:08 that day. The stage had started in Carpentras, not Bédoin. Then the record passed to Vaughters in 1999 and Iban Mayo in 2004.

If your point is that a rider who is not necessarily a better climber than another rider, can win in long breakaways then I agree and have acknowledged it. This is my main reason for not valuing KOM jerseys as much as others and have posted that before and that's why my main criteria are stage wins (a great climber will usually win more mountain stages than a good climber due to the fact that he'll win some mountain top finishes and that the good climber isn't always going for the stage and sometimes just KOM points) and effectiveness of the attack (how much time it gained).

 

[Wigwan]

Moncoutié

Moncoutié is the best clean rider ever. Imagine what he could have done if he would have "discovered" the Vuelta before 08. In the last 4 years, 4 stage wins and 4 KoM jersey..

 

[Moncoutie]

Moncoutié is the best clean rider ever. Imagine what he could have done if he would have "discovered" the Vuelta before 08. In the last 4 years, 4 stage wins and 4 KoM jersey..

Winner!!!

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Why no mention of this guy? He had more solo's in the mountains in 1 Tour de France than some of the here mentioned 'climbers' in their careers.

 

[Moncoutie]

Why no mention of this guy? He had more solo's in the mountains in 1 Tour de France than some of the here mentioned 'climbers' in their careers.

Very nice! Kenny for KoM!

 

[jordan5000]

Why no mention of this guy? He had more solo's in the mountains in 1 Tour de France than some of the here mentioned 'climbers' in their careers.

I'm ashamed to say that I don't recognize that cyclist, if you gave the name I'd probably know.

 

[Moncoutie]

Kenny Van Hummel

 

[Libertine Seguros]

En nu komt de zon, de zon komt op
En ik rij er recht op af
Asfalt voor mij alleen
De koning te rijk
Alles van mij waar ik kijk
Met dat gevoel dat zich niet laat verdrijven
Ik had eigenlijk langer willen blijven

 

[Le breton]

If your point is that a rider who is not necessarily a better climber than another rider, can win in long breakaways then I agree and have acknowledged it.

No, that is far, very far, from what I said.

 

[Old School]

Virenque

I might have missed it, but I haven't seen anyone mention Richard Virenque...he should at least be on someone's list.

I know, I know....clinic issues aside....dude could climb. Loved his Festina watch commercial...him cresting a mountain...finger in the air, crossing the line.....AHHHHH! (Heavenly music in the background...)

 

[Angliru]

I might have missed it, but I haven't seen anyone mention Richard Virenque...he should at least be on someone's list.

I know, I know....clinic issues aside....dude could climb. Loved his Festina watch commercial...him cresting a mountain...finger in the air, crossing the line.....AHHHHH! (Heavenly music in the background...)

That image alone is enough to curdle milk and my stomach!

I think I mentioned him but not in the positive manner that you're saying he deserves. In context of best climber ever I personally don't think he deserves a mention. All I remember is that when the elite climbers of his day, the one's battling for the gc, really began to ride in the mountains, I have this image of Virenque immediately going off the back, getting dropped, 9 times out of 10.
My dislike for him has likely tainted my memory of his accomplishments but he never impressed me--only annoyed me.

 

[webvan]

Well that was after he came back and was, presumably, cleaner, in 96 and 97 when he was going for GC he was with the best on the last climb.

So it seems everyone has forgotten Simoni, the self-declared best climber in the world. Not sure about that, and he never did anything in the TDF, but man that guy was tough...I don't think a single article on CN didn't refer to him as the "tough man from Trentin"...Other than the cocaine candies his aunt brought back from Peru (?) I think he has a clean slate too.

 

[Escarabajo]

There is something fundamentally wrong with this thread.
Obviously a best climber, best at everything, does not exist.
...

* I would not be surprised if someone would invoque similar reasons for the defeat of Herrera (J-F Bernard won) on Ventoux in 87. Jeff climbed Ventoux in 58:08 that day. The stage had started in Carpentras, not Bédoin. Then the record passed to Vaughters in 1999 and Iban Mayo in 2004.

+1.

There are different aspects as to how the best climber can be chosen out there.

Variables can be:

- EPO, blood transfusions. Take the drugs EPO away from Pantani, Armstrong and Virenque and see what you get.
- Body recuperation within the race. That's why you have better climb performers in short races with less cumulative mountains than in the Tour. For the Tour the recuperation ia always paramount. And some skinny climbers have problems with that (Herrera, Millar). During the EPO era you can fix that problem and that's why you get a Rassmussen potentially winning a Tour.
- Body build.

And yes, I never understood how the bigger body build Bernard defeated the skinny Herrera in that Ventoux stage. I though there was some false flat at the beginning where Bernard took advantage of it.

 

[Old School]

That image alone is enough to curdle milk and my stomach!

I think I mentioned him but not in the positive manner that you're saying he deserves. In context of best climber ever I personally don't think he deserves a mention. All I remember is that when the elite climbers of his day, the one's battling for the gc, really began to ride in the mountains, I have this image of Virenque immediately going off the back, getting dropped, 9 times out of 10.
My dislike for him has likely tainted my memory of his accomplishments but he never impressed me--only annoyed me.

Nah man. You got me wrong...I was kinda making fun of him with the commercial and all...I don't rate him among the best at all, he was a KOM hunter...not a real mountain goat for when the cards were on the table, and the real big dogs were seeing who could suffer the most.

I used to be fooled by him....but that was before I saw the light.

 

[Angliru]

Nah man. You got me wrong...I was kinda making fun of him with the commercial and all...I don't rate him among the best at all, he was a KOM hunter...not a real mountain goat for when the cards were on the table, and the real big dogs were seeing who could suffer the most.

I used to be fooled by him....but that was before I saw the light.

Good to know! I thought maybe there was a series of his performances that I had simply blocked out of my memory due to my extreme dislike for the little whiner. Although I recall someone(s) here presented an argument in his support earlier in this thread. It failed to sway me though.

 

[Duartista]

Nah man. You got me wrong...I was kinda making fun of him with the commercial and all...I don't rate him among the best at all, he was a KOM hunter...not a real mountain goat for when the cards were on the table, and the real big dogs were seeing who could suffer the most.

I used to be fooled by him....but that was before I saw the light.

How did he manage to finish second and third in the Tour then?

 

[Angliru]

How did he manage to finish second and third in the Tour then?

Definitely not by being one of the best climbers in history.

 

[Duartista]

Definitely not by being one of the best climbers in history.

Well, no. But he was one of the best climbers in the world for a time, competing with Pantani and Ullrich. Look at the results of the mountain stages in the '97 Tour.

 

[jens_attacks]

Definitely not by being one of the best climbers in history.

at one moment of history,virenque was there,one of the best.like it or not.

 

[Angliru]

at one moment of history,virenque was there,one of the best.like it or not.

Nevertheless, in the context of best climber in history, as the OP stated in regards to Jose Manuel Fuente and several others, "His performances do not warrant consideration". It's not a matter of my liking the fact that "at one moment of history, Virenque was there, one of the best" (although it does prove my previous statement that I had blocked out that/those 'moments'), one moment of history does not an all-time great make. My bias aside, he's simply not worthy.

 

[Old School]

How did he manage to finish second and third in the Tour then?

Well you dropped great facts..and a picture...can't argue with your logic here. When you are riding with Pantani...you are pretty special...so, I guess I am wrong...Virenque deserves a vote on the list...

 

[Duartista]

Well you dropped great facts..and a picture...can't argue with your logic here. When you are riding with Pantani...you are pretty special...so, I guess I am wrong...Virenque deserves a vote on the list...

Whoa, I wouldn't go that far! If you replaced Rasmussen and Heras with Fuente and Herrera, the list would be very acceptable.

 

[Le breton]

+1.

And yes, I never understood how the bigger body build Bernard defeated the skinny Herrera in that Ventoux stage. I though there was some false flat at the beginning where Bernard took advantage of it.

Start of the stage was in Carpentras.Jeff Bernard was 3rd there 21:36
Roche 21:57 Mottet 22:07 Delgado 22:19 Herrera 22:30 (Not absolutely certain, but definitely > 22:26)

At the finish

Jeff Bernard 1:19:44
Herrera + 1:39, so he was slower on Ventoux as well, by 45 sec..
Delgado +1:51
Parra + 2:04
Roche 2:19
Mottet + 3:58

Jeff changed bike somewhere after Bédoin.

Jeff Bernard, on a good day, was an outstanding TTrialist. On the last TT in 87 he completely destroyed his opponents.

I wouldn't be surprised however if some day I learned that Astéryx helped him that day, Koechli notwithstanding.

Racers were lucky that day that, in spite of the sun, they had far cooler temperatures than usual.

 

[Le breton]

I have this image of Virenque immediately going off the back, getting dropped, 9 times out of 10.
.

Guess you have a problem with your TV.

Virenque was not a good TTrialist, in general, although, on a few occasions...
He wasn't outstanding on single climbs, but - whatever the means he used - he was there with the best on stages with multiple climbs.

If you look at the best times up AdH (ignoring 2004 TT), only 6 racers have done better : Pantani by 1:30 ; Ullrich by 0:40 ; Armstrong by 15s ; Indurain and Zulle by 10s and Riis by 5s.