Best sprinter ever?

[Vonn Brinkman]

I think Mario Cipollini, Andre Darrigade and Mark Cavendish can all fight for that title. But let's wait first and see how the Manxman progresses. If he continues the way he does now, in 7 years he will be the best sprinter ever.

 

[Mambo95]

A completely idiotic and utterly futile comparison. Current palmares is the only guideline.

Or is a 19 year old pro who wins his first race "one of the greatest ever"? You know that is nonsense... and that immediately blows your argument out of the water. Who knows... maybe Cav never wins a GT stage again (I doubt it, but it's possible). So what does age have to do with it? The only thing that counts is the bottom line which is palmares.

You've completely missed my point. My point was that comparing a current sportsman's palmares with someone who has retired is a false comparision. So saying that Cavendish isn't as good Zabel because he hasn't won all those green jerseys is as daft as saying Usain Bolt isn't as good a sprinter as Carl Lewis because he hasn't won as many medals and hasn't won the long jump.

I posted the 'at the same age' comparisons as a counterpoint to that. I never claimed it was 'proof' of anything, merely a statistic to be considered.

Unfortunately, you were unable to grasp this and flew of the handle with the insults.

 

[Mambo95]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. With "rider with the best palmares" I mean with the most victories related to sprinting for example most bunch sprints won in GTs, most points jerseys, most prestigious sprint stages/sprint classics won etc.

My post wasn't particularly directed at you, you just provided a convenient jumping off point.

I was really just laying down my own criteria, as you have done with yours.

 

[simoni]

I think that when all is said and done in a decade's time Cavendish will be regarded as the best pure sprinter ever. But what I think doesn't count for much!

Up to now its a tough one to call - I think Cipollini has to have a strong shout for sheer volume of wins in the Giro if nothing else. Maertens star burned brightly but not consistently, Zabel won all the GJs without much team support but simply couldn't get over the line first in the latter years of his career.

 

[therealdjamolidineabdoujaparov]

i like mario, cause he looked good doing it... the opposite to abbu, who was a horror story on wheels.

modern day sprinting is different, and i dont think cav would have won as many if he were racing in the others day.

Ha!

My two favourites were Mario and Abdu for exactly the reasons you say. Mario for his top speed and distance of sprint (and as he says "looking good at 70km/hr), and abdu for his balls out sprint every time. He looked like a lumberjack and could turn a 531 frame into a pretzel.

Opposite ends of the spectrum... Both entertaining.

 

[El Pistolero]

Freddy Maertens for sure.

He got 19 GT stages in one season(Giro+Vuelta) while winning the Vuelta and the points classification of the Vuelta.

Also 3 green jerseys at the Tour with 16 stages. 7 stages in one Giro, but he had to give up before it ended because of some injury. He never truly recovered from that injury.

He also was the world champion on the road two times and won the unofficial world championship time trial once. And he won 9 classics(no monuments, but nice things like Amstel Gold, Gent-Wevelgem, Paris-Tours, etc)

He also holds the record of most stage victories in one Tour de France together with Eddy Merckx(8)

His career was already over at the age of 28 or something.

I just don't ever see Cavendish achieving the same palmares at that age.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Everyone seems to have covered all the bases, except to note not Zabel cuz some of his Green's came without any stage wins.
BUT HOW ABOUT HONORABLE MENTIONS:
- Tom Steels
- Robbie McEwen
- others?

 

[Franklin]

You've completely missed my point. My point was that comparing a current sportsman's palmares with someone who has retired is a false comparision. So saying that Cavendish isn't as good Zabel because he hasn't won all those green jerseys is as daft as saying Usain Bolt isn't as good a sprinter as Carl Lewis because he hasn't won as many medals and hasn't won the long jump.
.

No, just no. As soon as Cav passes Mario's palmares he becomes the greatest, regardless of his age or if he is retired or not. A few examples.

Merckx in 74 was the greatest ever. Everything he did after that (which is decent if no longer outerwordly) is superficial. As soon as lance won number 6 he became the record holder.

This is why comparing Cav to the truly great is at this moment premature. The only thing we can say that he has huge potential to become the greatest (I think he will). but as long as he hasn't passed Ale-jet or Mario or Darrigde he simply is a runner-up.

About Usain: He's the fastest man ever. But Carl Lewis is the greatest Athlete ever (yes, a doper, but palmares is the criterium).

About Zabel. He is the record holder GJ. Saying Cav is better at GJ collecting is insane. Saying Zabel won more stages is also insane. See the difference? It's sometimes forgotten, but the cold hard thing called fact is decisive, especially if we look at Palmares.

This also means Lemond (and Lance) are great but not among the greatest ever.

And the reason why I'm so firm on this is the immense lack of history which is prevailing on this forum. The "Cavendish is the greatest ever" chorus is just an example of this. You imply that he is the greatest while the cold hard facts say that he has a few more years to go before becoming a contender.

 

[Mambo95]

No, just no. As soon as Cav passes Mario's palmares he becomes the greatest, regardless of his age or if he is retired or not. A few examples.

Merckx in 74 was the greatest ever. Everything he did after that (which is decent if no longer outerwordly) is superficial. As soon as lance won number 6 he became the record holder.

This is why comparing Cav to the truly great is at this moment premature. The only thing we can say that he has huge potential to become the greatest (I think he will). but as long as he hasn't passed Ale-jet or Mario or Darrigde he simply is a runner-up.

About Usain: He's the fastest man ever. But Carl Lewis is the greatest Athlete ever (yes, a doper, but palmares is the criterium).

About Zabel. He is the record holder GJ. Saying Cav is better at GJ collecting is insane. Saying Zabel won more stages is also insane. See the difference? It's sometimes forgotten, but the cold hard thing called fact is decisive, especially if we look at Palmares.

This also means Lemond (and Lance) are great but not among the greatest ever.

And the reason why I'm so firm on this is the immense lack of history which is prevailing on this forum. The "Cavendish is the greatest ever" chorus is just an example of this. You imply that he is the greatest while the cold hard facts say that he has a few more years to go before becoming a contender.

Throughout your post you mention the words 'great' and 'greatest'. When judging this then palmares are what counts.

You never use the words 'best' or 'fastest', expect when making the distinction between this and 'great', with respect to Bolt/Lewis.

The OP asked who's the best (ie who would win if they all lined up together), not who's the greatest. Palmares is of much lesser importance here.

I answered his question as Cavendish as he's the fastest I've seen. (Maartens was before my time but Kelly said he wouldn't get close to Cavendish, which is good enough for me.)

 

[Franklin]

I answered his question as Cavendish as he's the fastest I've seen. (Maartens was before my time but Kelly said he wouldn't get close to Cavendish, which is good enough for me.)

Ok... agreed if that's the criterium. It's quite simple really. There is no sport where people become slower. So yes, Cav is the fastest ever. The next great one after Cav will be faster than him.

It's once again pointless. Merckx 1969-1974would be spat out by the current peleton. Merckx trained nowadays would be a contender probably but maybe not the best of this generation. This is based on physique, it became more specialised. Merckx and Hinault both won bunch sprints. That is impossible nowadays. They also seem much more "burly" than current riders. They do not just have more fat, but simply had a more powerful physique overall.

 

[Angliru]

Cav is fortunate that the best sprinters are most in some way either past their prime (Petacchi, Freire, McEwen, Hushovd) or at some state of recovering from performance effecting injuries (Benatti, Boonen). Only Farrar is young and has been healthy in his battles versus Cav. Of course not his fault but when guaging one's ability versus the greats of the past this has to be taken into consideration.

If you feel the need to bring the green jersey into it, Cav in all his greatness has yet to win it. Of course Cippo didn't either but he's Italian riding for Italian teams. The Giro was likely his priority for most of his career with the Tour the icing on the cake of his seasons. Cav is quoted as saying that he's usually sprinting at 85% most of the time and turn it up when he has to, such is the ease of which he implies his victories are. If this is the case then winning the Tour's green jersey should have been a piece of cake the past 2 years and yet still no green.

Additionally he has a team dedicated to bringing him to victory while if you look at riders like Freire, McEwen and even Hushovd, their teams are of a varied focus and they are left to their own devices.

 

[Mich78BEL]

Cavendish could have won the green this year had he bothered with the intermedial sprints but that probably would have ment less stage wins. If he really wants the points classification next year in the tour he's probably going the have to 'sacrifice' a couple of stage wins.

Imo best sprinter, in terms of peak defintely Maertens, in terms of longetivity people like Cippolini, Zabel or Freire spring to mind.

 

[kurtinsc]

Cavendish could have won the green this year had he bothered with the intermedial sprints but that probably would have ment less stage wins. If he really wants the points classification next year in the tour he's probably going the have to 'sacrifice' a couple of stage wins.

That or not fall down.

 

[Nick C.]

If you wanted to talk about a battle of the giants Steels and Cipo in the '99 Tour seems as good as it gets in recent times.

 

[c&cfan]

if this thread is to talk about sprinters, then dont talk before the year 1980. cycling has changed a lot. merkx would never been able to bet contador in a gt, cancellara in tt, cancellara or bonen in the cobbles, or cipo or cav in a sprint, bettini\rebellin in a hilly classic etc

cav is (actually) the best with or without team..he showed in some victories like the final tour stage this year. but it's like the classics\gt. without a great team, the best cyclist wont win it many times, because he is the best, so is everyone against him, everyone on is wheel with their teammates atacking him etc.

let's wait some years and he will be the best sprinter ever. but we cant compare his palmares with cipo and petachi (yet). but if you compare their palmares at 25, cav is in the right path to be the best ever.

note: more green jerseys doesnt mean best sprinter.

 

[turtlesoup]

if this thread is to talk about sprinters, then dont talk before the year 1980. cycling has changed a lot. merkx would never been able to bet contador in a gt, cancellara in tt, cancellara or bonen in the cobbles, or cipo or cav in a sprint, bettini\rebellin in a hilly classic etc

cav is (actually) the best with or without team..he showed in some victories like the final tour stage this year. but it's like the classics\gt. without a great team, the best cyclist wont win it many times, because he is the best, so is everyone against him, everyone on is wheel with their teammates atacking him etc.

let's wait some years and he will be the best sprinter ever. but we cant compare his palmares with cipo and petachi (yet). but if you compare their palmares at 25, cav is in the right path to be the best ever.

note: more green jerseys doesnt mean best sprinter.

not sure i agree with this, very hard to say what merckx could have done with a carbon fiber frame and modern training and nutrition. No doubt the match up is slanted towards the new guys but im not sure how many races cav is gonna win with a steel frame and eatting steak and potatoes like they are going out of style.

 

[For The World]

Ok... agreed if that's the criterium.

The word you're looking for is criteria (or the singular form criterion). Just an FYI.

As for sprinters, I think these guys deserve an honourable mention:

Sean Kelly (more of an all rounder but still a great sprinter)
Jan Svorada
Jeroen Bljilevens (or however you spell his name)

These guys were at least amongst the big players during their respective careers.

Another honourable mention should go to Wilfred Nellisen - after the crash with the policeman in the Tour in 1994, he was never the same rider.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

revival of the thread

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Maertens !

57 Wins in 1977, 53 in 1976. For comparison: Cavendish had 31 in 2009

http://www.radsportseiten.net/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=2133#stats

 

[michaeld]

not sure i agree with this, very hard to say what merckx could have done with a carbon fiber frame and modern training and nutrition. .

Irrelevant. The rest of the field had the same equipment, so no advantage.

 

[Kellys Big Sprocket]

Sean Kelly all the way for me

Its not the quantity of wins, its the quality of wins that history retains

With reference to our Sean, I quote LeMond (a cunning wee sprinter in his day too)....... "on his best form there is nothing that you can do against Kelly: he climbs better than the best climbers and sprints better than the best sprinters"

I end my case

 

[El Pistolero]

Sean Kelly all the way for me

Its not the quantity of wins, its the quality of wins that history retains

With reference to our Sean, I quote LeMond (a cunning wee sprinter in his day too)....... "on his best form there is nothing that you can do against Kelly: he climbs better than the best climbers and sprints better than the best sprinters"

I end my case

He didn't really climb better than the best climbers, but ok. One of the greatest ever never the less. The successor of Freddy Maertens.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

I think Mario Cipollini, Andre Darrigade and Mark Cavendish can all fight for that title. But let's wait first and see how the Manxman progresses. If he continues the way he does now, in 7 years he will be the best sprinter ever.

Yup. Between those three.

Although having spent a pleasant hour watching Cipollini's Tour victories, they're not as impressive as Cavendish's. So that narrows it down to two.

Can't find any video of Darrigade but his Tour record speaks for itself.

 

[Mambo95]

Can't find any video of Darrigade but his Tour record speaks for itself.

His Tour record certainly is impressive, but back in his day bunch sprints were a rarity. Most of his wins came from groups of a dozen or less. (He could still win the bunch sprints though).

It makes it hard to compare though. Cycling's changed a whole lot since then.