Better Cobblestone rider: Boonen or Cancellara?

[trompe le monde]

Don't act surprised when you get reactions to your strongly worded opinions, you were probably bating for them as well. There's such a thing as being too tolerant by the way, so grow a pair and defend your opinion!

It just so happens to be that my opinion is that your opinion is bogus.

You said Boonen only rides for 8 days a year, but now you're unable to stand by that. Ok, whatever.

Who is acting surprised? I'm not surprised. Like I said from the beginning, your opinion is yours and mine is mine. There is no surprise there, as I know the outcome to your opinion and I would hope I know the outcome to mine.

Look, opinion is subjective. Different people can look at the same set of facts and come to different conclusions. Discussions such as this, Cancellar v Boonen v cobbles, can't be objectively determined like some logical calculus with only one correct conclusion. Sure there is room for discussion, but all the good points about Cancellara's prowess have been discussed, so I won't rehash them.

I still think that Boonen lives and dies for 8 days of the year, but I stand corrected. It's three weeks of the year. A quote from Boonen himself in this interview:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2007/03/news/road/the-sunday-interview-tom-boonen_11870

'A failure for me would be to arrive to the most important three weeks of my season [northern classics] and you know in your mind you cannot win the races.'

So you're right, I was wrong to say 8 days. I should have said three weeks.

 

[El Pistolero]

Who is acting surprised? I'm not surprised. Like I said from the beginning, your opinion is yours and mine is mine. There is no surprise there, as I know the outcome to your opinion and I would hope I know the outcome to mine.

Look, opinion is subjective. Different people can look at the same set of facts and come to different conclusions. Discussions such as this, Cancellar v Boonen v cobbles, can't be objectively determined like some logical calculus with only one correct conclusion. Sure there is room for discussion, but all the good points about Cancellara's prowess have been discussed, so I won't rehash them.

I still think that Boonen lives and dies for 8 days of the year, but I stand corrected. It's three weeks of the year. A quote from Boonen himself in this interview:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2007/03/news/road/the-sunday-interview-tom-boonen_11870

'A failure for me would be to arrive to the most important three weeks of my season [northern classics] and you know in your mind you cannot win the races.'

So your right, I was wrong to say 8 days. I should have said three weeks.

He said 3 most important weeks of his season, not the only 3 weeks. He has won more races than Cancellara outside March and April.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=m_5Q8sQumrc#t=22s

Here's a nice example of a warm-up race in February(hey if you're counting Strade Bianche...)

And I must have imagined seeing Boonen train hard for the WC this year. I bet he was just pretending, that sly dog!

Oh and you said the WC TTT was irrelevant. That's just your opinion. Boonen considers it his biggest victory of the year actually...

Nothing wrong with a little discussion, so why do you feel the need to quit? I'm not insulting you personally, so relax. I just disagree with what you say. When you think Cancellara is better than Boonen I can accept that opinion, but when you say Boonen is nothing but a cobbled classic rider I'll strongly disagree with you. He was injured for most of 2010-2011, just like Cancellara was this year...

 

[trompe le monde]

He said 3 most important weeks of his season, not the only 3 weeks. He has won more races than Cancellara outside March and April.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=m_5Q8sQumrc#t=22s

Here's a nice example of a warm-up race in February(hey if you're counting Strade Bianche...)

And I must have imagined seeing Boonen train hard for the WC this year. I bet he was just pretending, that sly dog!

Nothing wrong with a little discussion, so why do you feel the need to quit? I'm not insulting you personally, so relax. I just disagree with what you say. When you think Cancellara is better than Boonen I can accept that opinion, but when you say Boonen is nothing but a cobbled classic rider I'll strongly disagree with you. He was injured for most of 2010-2011, just like Cancellara was this year..

I am strongly contradicting myself here, but I can ask you the opposite question: why do you feel the need to persist?

Why must I provide every nook and cranny to my opinion until I have exhausted it of any relevance?

It, my opinion, may be incorrect in your eyes, but so what? I live every day comfortable in the knowledge that I believe Boonen is less of a rider than Cancellara, and I have not suffered for it.

-begin scene

I have not been struck down by lightning bolts from an angry pro-Boonen Zeus, nor has my social status been in some way impinged by viewing Tomke with a furrowed brow and shaken fist. The hands of fate have not crushed me yet for my somewhat malignant anti-Boonen view and I do not think you are in a position to inform me that the winds of fate will soon change if I don't come over to the 'dark side'.

Not even if Nietzsche's Zarathustra, after spending those god awful years atop that mountain alone with no tv or Weekly World News to console him, were to descend from that lonesome hermitage to pronounce to the world 'It is Boonen, my friends, Boonen alone who shall lead the meek atop the crooked and cobbled bicycle path' even I would not believe him.

For I decree, and with a thousand trumpets blazing, "Cancellara till I die!!!!!!"



-end scene.

 

[El Pistolero]

I am strongly contradicting myself here, but I can ask you the opposite question: why do you feel the need to persist?

Why must I provide every nook and cranny to my opinion until I have exhausted it of any relevance?

It, my opinion, may be incorrect in your eyes, but so what? I live every day comfortable in the knowledge that I believe Boonen is less of a rider than Cancellara, and I have not suffered for it.

-begin scene

I have not been struck down by lightning bolts from an angry pro-Boonen Zeus, nor has my social status been in some way impinged by viewing Tomke with a furrowed brow and shaken fist. The hands of fate have not crushed me yet for my somewhat malignant anti-Boonen view and I do not think you are in a position to inform me that the winds of fate will soon change if I don't come over to the 'dark side'.

Not even if Nietzsche's Zarathustra, after spending those god awful years atop that mountain alone with no tv or Weekly World News to console him, were to descend from that lonesome hermitage to pronounce to the world 'It is Boonen, my friends, Boonen alone who shall lead the meek atop the crooked and cobbled bicycle path' even I would not believe him.

For I decree, and with a thousand trumpets blazing, "Cancellara till I die!!!!!!"



-end scene.

Actually stating Boonen only rides 8 days a year is not an opinion, but something you consider to be a fact. Which is not true as I showed. You feel the need to dismiss that proof, but that doesn't change the fact that you were wrong.

Why do I feel the need to persist? Simple, it's in my nature to not give up. I'm not ashamed of it lol.

An opinion can be factually wrong in case you didn't know. This isn't about whether you think Cancellara is better(it's your right to think that), but about you thinking Boonen only rides 8 days a year.

 

[trompe le monde]

Don't act surprised when you get reactions to your strongly worded opinions, you were probably bating for them as well. There's such a thing as being too tolerant by the way, so grow a pair and defend your opinion!

It just so happens to be that my opinion is that your opinion is bogus.

You said Boonen only rides for 8 days a year, but now you're unable to stand by that. Ok, whatever.

When someone makes a racial comment do you also say "you have your opinion and I have mine"? Just curious.

Okay I just noticed this. It's off topic, but I must respond.

Are you honestly putting on equal footing a potential discussion of an opinion on racism as being of equal weight to that of an opinion on a cyclist? Are you serious? Why do you wield counter statements like a hammer and start applying them to other facets that are beyond the scope of the discussion? Isn't that a little, um, irresponsible? And I know how you would probably respond by saying that 'I was being irresponsible with Boonen's palmares, being irresponsible with his race calendar, so it should apply', or something to that effect.

Get a grip. Do you honestly think my - according to you - laissez faire attitude about the topic of two cyclists, count them two cyclists, bleeds into all facets of my life? Are you utterly and unequivocally insane? This is just cycling, it in no way shapes or forms my attitude on topics such as the appartheid that happened in South Africa nor the segregation that happened in the American south. One deals with a matter of opinion that can be swayed, the other with a matter of fundamental human rights. Do you honestly think I'm so profoundly and helplessly stupid that I would conflate the two?

This is just a discussion on cycling, not a discussion on the drafting of the emancipation proclamation. Have some sense of proportion before you become compelled to psychoanalyse another poster.

 

[Savant12]

Cancellara hasn't won a decent race since 2010, so I guess that makes him irrelevant altogether. Not my logic, but yours.

E3 2011 wasn't a decent race? Multiple puctures + mechanical + catching and passing 2 breakaway groups + soloing to victory. One of my favorite races to re-watch.

I love Cancellara as an enthusiastic racer but I think Boonen is the smarter one on the cobbles. Not to mention he has a better team built around him than Cancellara has.

 

[trompe le monde]

E3 2011 wasn't a decent race? Multiple puctures + mechanical + catching and passing 2 breakaway groups + soloing to victory. One of my favorite races to re-watch.

I love Cancellara as an enthusiastic racer but I think Boonen is the smarter one on the cobbles. Not to mention he has a better team built around him than Cancellara has.

And the last sentence is one of the reasons why I value Cancellara over Boonen. His classics team has never had the quality of domestiques that Boonen has had at his disposal. I suppose during the CSC days, he had a better team around him, but now, given the choice, I would think that Cancellara would choose Boonen's Quick Step domestiques over his current Saxo Bank domestiques.

 

[El Pistolero]

Okay I just noticed this. It's off topic, but I must respond.

snip

Not my problem everything you say contradicts yourself. You make statements based on lies and call it an opinion. So yeah, I don't accept your "opinion" about Boonen. It's based on claims you have yet to back up. You're not willing to back them up, so you keep saying "this is my last post here". I ask you for the final time to back up your statement that Boonen only rides 8 days a season. And don't give me anymore of this pious nonsense, just back up your statement. I think it's insulting to a cyclist who has won the World Championship on the road, the green jersey in the Tour, 6 Tour stages, 2 Vuelta stages, multiple stage races, etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfflplqpUt4

Does this look like a rider to you that only rides 8 days in April?

E3 2011 wasn't a decent race? Multiple puctures + mechanical + catching and passing 2 breakaway groups + soloing to victory. One of my favorite races to re-watch.

I love Cancellara as an enthusiastic racer but I think Boonen is the smarter one on the cobbles. Not to mention he has a better team built around him than Cancellara has.

It is indeed a great race to re-watch and won with a lot of panache, but it was not a big race. Especially because most of the favorites where at Gent-Wevelgem. I should've said big race instead of decent race, my apologies.

And yes his team is better, but up until 2011 they were pretty equal in team. And don't forget Boonen lost 2 opportunities in the Ronde van Vlaanderen because of his team. It was Cancellara's choice to join Radioshack, so it's his fault for making that decision.

 

[Magnus]

So crashing a lot is imperative to being a good bike handler?

Where in gods name did you get that from?

Since you ask, this the sort of statements that make it seems like you may think so.

...
**** bike handlers are less likely to take risks.
...
part of being the best bike handler is that you are constantly taking risks
...
Its pretty logical that people who take more risks are more likely to crash.

Frankly, I think you're somewhat misguided if you think there's a causal clause between being a good bike handler and taking risks.

 

[The Hitch]

Still mad about the Goss thing?
.

No i actually do think goss is a superior sprinter to boonen and as ridiculous as it may sound to you im far from the only one.

your comment on the other hand is totally irrational caused by your well known hate for cancellara.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

In some ways, the poll is unfair. Take away cobblestone ability from Boonen and you are left with a milquetoast husk that has no other reason for cycling.
Take away cobblestone ability from Cancellara and you still have currently one of the best time trialistists, classics winner, Strade Bianchi winner, Tour de Suisse winner and countless other accolades. Cancellara the cyclist has much more well rounded capability than Boonen. Boonen merely exists for 8 calendar days in the year.

Yes, I know its a digression and not the point of the thread. But I find it hard to think of Boonen as an equal or better than Cancellara at anything....except for maybe unintenionally doing coke. Boonen's got Cancellara beat on that.

I will grab some popcorn and read everything el calimero will write starting... now!

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Tour de Suisse route had no mountains in it just so Cancellara could win his home Tour. A mountainous country with no mountains in its national Tour... I hope you're not that naive.

You were the one saying Boonen only performed in the cobbled classics, so don't moan when I give you evidence he doesn't. And that includes the Belgian Championship. Which takes place in June, without cobbles. Enough logic for you?

By your logic the discussion is closed because Cancellara is irrelevant on cobbles. Remember, didn't win an important race since 2010.

Results 1 Michael Albasini (Swi) Team Columbia - Highroad 5:24:04
2 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team Saxo Bank
3 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre - N.G.C.
4 Olivier Zaugg (Swi) Liquigas
5 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Team Katusha
6 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas
7 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank
8 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana
9 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) AG2R La Mondiale
10 Maxime Monfort (Bel) Team Columbia - Highroad

1 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team Columbia - Highroad 4:56:41
2 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas 0:00:02
3 Peter Velits (Svk) Team Milram 0:00:07
4 Olivier Zaugg (Swi) Liquigas
5 Eros Capecchi (Ita) Fuji-Servetto
6 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team Saxo Bank
7 Rui Alberto Faria (Por) Caisse d'Epargne
8 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Team Katusha
9 Tony Martin (Ger) Team Columbia - Highroad
10 Chris Anker Sörensen (Den) Team Saxo Bank

1 Tony Martin (Ger) Team Columbia - Highroad 4:12:31
2 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre - N.G.C.
3 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:02
4 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) AG2R La Mondiale
5 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team Columbia - Highroad
6 Rein Taaramae (Est) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne
7 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana
8 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas
9 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Team Katusha
10 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank
11 Rui Alberto Faria (Por) Caisse d'Epargne 0:00:08
12 Michael Albasini (Swi) Team Columbia - Highroad
13 Maxime Monfort (Bel) Team Columbia - Highroad 0:00:19
14 Eros Capecchi (Ita) Fuji-Servetto 0:00:37
15 Damien Monier (Fra) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne 0:01:01

look at those names he's with up there on the climbs that year. boonen could do the same? look, he beat even one of your countrymen, monfort up crans montana

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Cats round here wants and feels the need to win an internet discussion, which can be hilarious and annoying for others.

especially el calimero, who even stays up all night to have the last word in an internet discussion I hope he's jobless for his boss' sake, as I'm sure not even boonen would lose any sleep over this topic, unlike him

 

[The Hitch]

When someone makes a racial comment do you also say "you have your opinion and I have mine"? Just curious.

Are you seriously comparing saying cancellara is better than boonen to racism?

 

[El Pistolero]

No i actually do think goss is a superior sprinter to boonen and as ridiculous as it may sound to you im far from the only one.

your comment on the other hand is totally irrational caused by your well known hate for cancellara.

My comment was a joke, hence the emoticon. I don't hate Cancellara. But you were/are dead serious about Goss, that's what makes it so funny. Fact that you quote me without the emoticon says a lot Hitch.

especially el calimero, who even stays up all night to have the last word in an internet discussion I hope he's jobless for his boss' sake, as I'm sure not even boonen would lose any sleep over this topic, unlike him

I was writing my thesis. My promotor doesn't seem to mind me working at night. Not hard to post on a forum at the same time. Students staying up all night might sound strange to you, but it isn't Ryo.

Are you seriously comparing saying cancellara is better than boonen to racism?

Nope, wasn't a discussion about who was better. It was a discussion about Boonen being a rider who only rides for 8 days a year. That's an opinion that is just as wrong as any other opinion based on fact-less statements.

I don't actually mind if he thinks Cancellara is better, but at least use a real reason instead of made up nonsense.

 

[The Hitch]

Actually stating Boonen only rides 8 days a year is not an opinion, but something you consider to be a fact. Which is not true as I showed. You feel the need to dismiss that proof, but that doesn't change the fact that you were wrong.

.

Im pretty sure the 8 days.comment was hyperbole. Just like every.time you say that all cancellara ever won was the 2008 tds.

 

[El Pistolero]

Im pretty sure the 8 days.comment was hyperbole. Just like every.time you say that all cancellara ever won was the 2008 tds.

Strange considering he never won that. I'm sure I never said that.

Though I did praise his Tour de Suisse from 2008 yes.

I'm pretty sure him bringing up the 8 days comment multiple times he actually believes it.

Funniest part was him bringing up an interview where Boonen said the cobblestone races where the 3 most important weeks of his season as proof that Boonen only rides for 3 weeks. I guess when Contador says the Tour are the 3 most important weeks of his season that means he only lives for the Tour. But perhaps he was just your sock-puppet trying to bate me? (You don't mind falsely accusing me of that sort of stuff).

 

[The Hitch]

What on earth has Cancellara competing somewhere to do with the fact that Boonen won a race on a hilly terrain against a much better cyclist than Cancellara? .

See that's your problem. You actually think cancellara is.some 2nd grade cyclist.

Oh and btw, look who is bringing Gilbert up, again.

 

[El Pistolero]

See that's your problem. You actually think cancellara is.some 2nd grade cyclist.

Oh and btw, look who is bringing Gilbert up, again.

I was using his logic that past results are irrelevant because that's in the past. Surely last 2 years Phil >>>>> Cancellara.

And I will bring him up every time someone says Boonen is just cobbles and nothing more. If Boonen beating Phil on his home terrain isn't proof that Boonen is capable of more than just cobbles then I don't know what is? Maybe you can answer this.

 

[The Hitch]

I was using his logic that past results are irrelevant because that's in the past. Surely last 2 years Phil >>>>> Cancellara.

And I will bring him up every time someone says Boonen is just cobbles and nothing more. If Boonen beating Phil on his home terrain isn't proof that Boonen is capable of more than just cobbles then I don't know what is? Maybe you can answer this.

boonen won that race over 3 years ago. So why are you emphasizing this Gilbert < canc last 2 years thing to validate a victory from 3 years ago?

 

[El Pistolero]

boonen won that race over 3 years ago. So why are you emphasizing this Gilbert < canc last 2 years thing to validate a victory from 3 years ago?

What makes you think I agree with that kind of logic? I'm just using it to point out how absurd it sounds. Obviously my post sounds absurd, it was intended to be that way.

He shrugged off Boonen's achievements outside of April as if they were irrelevant and a thing of the past, ignoring his many injuries. Using his logic, I can turn Cancellara into an irrelevant rider because he failed to perform in the first part of 2009 and 2011-2012.

Boonen is obviously not past it and still capable of what he did 3 years ago. Don't you agree?

If you can beat a guy that came fourth in AGR(best on the Cauberg, but late breakaway survived), third in the Ronde, fourth in LBL and won Lombardia that year on his terrain... Yeah, not just cobbles is he?

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

Ok, maybe it's time to call it a tie?

(in fact, current score really is 50/50)

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Ok, maybe it's time to call it a tie?

(in fact, current score really is 50/50)

Indeed, perhaps we should the coming season determine the current situation.
Two core races: RVV and P-R 2013.

 

[trompe le monde]

Okay, I admit I was wrong to:

-Say that Boonen was only relevant for 8 days of the year.

Was this comment clouded by my admitted slight dislike for Boonen? Yes.

Does this in any way change my opinion that Cancellara is better than Boonen? No.

For me it is an issue of quality over quantity. When Cancellara beat Boonen in 2010 in both the Ronde and Roubaix, he beat him rather emphatically. Crushed his will even. Those two wins were the most dominant classics wins I can recall, at least for me.

Should two races be used to measure the worth of a rider? I don't know, but to paraphrase American renaissance man and part-time Shamus Jeff 'The Dude' Lebowski, "yeah, well that's just my opinion, man".

 

[El Pistolero]

Okay, I admit I was wrong to:

-Say that Boonen was only relevant for 8 days of the year.

Was this comment clouded by my admitted slight dislike for Boonen? Yes.

Does this in any way change my opinion that Cancellara is better than Boonen? No.

For me it is an issue of quality over quantity. When Cancellara beat Boonen in 2010 in both the Ronde and Roubaix, he beat him rather emphatically. Crushed his will even. Those two wins were the most dominant classics wins I can recall, at least for me.

Should two races be used to measure the worth of a rider? I don't know, but to paraphrase American renaissance man and part-time Shamus Jeff 'The Dude' Lebowski, "yeah, well that's just my opinion, man".

That's fine you know. We weren't arguing about who was better, but about the 8 days thing. Glad it's sorted out.

Would like to remind you that it isn't just 2 races though:

Omloop Nieuwsblad
Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne: well it has cobbles and if the weather is right it's an interesting race.
Dwars door Vlaanderen
E3 Prijs Harelbeke
Gent-Wevelgem
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Paris-Roubaix.