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Biggest Pro Cycling Myths

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velosopher54 said:
We're talking the hardest sport, not the most injurious. I mean, American footballers play for only 12 minutes per game with lots of rests, including a halftime. Imagine stopping to take breaks during a Tour stage, and stopping halfway through for an extended break.:eek:

But the thing is, stopping so constantly is actually problematic; it's easier on the body to maintain a level of intensity for an extended period of time as in endurance sports and team games where the same players are constantly involved, than to be operating in small, extremely intense bursts with cooling-down periods in between. This makes NFL very difficult on the body even if the actual time spent in physical activity is quite low.
 
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JPM London said:
This is a great thread!

OP starts a non-clinic thread in the clinic and, surprise, gets clinic responses :)

I've only got myself to blame. I posted it after several glasses of wine and got confused.

However, I quite like the way it's gone with the 'hardest sport' angle (rather than yet another thread about you know who).

My two pennies worth.

Over a career it's one of rugby union, rugby league or american football. Few get out of those sports without permanent damage to their bodies. Which one you pick depends on your location. I'm South Wales, so it's Union.

Over a season, I can't think of anything that matches cycling for the day to day grind. Although National Hunt racing in Britain (horse racing over jumps) is very demanding too.

On a single day, it has to be boxing (or UFC if you see that as a sport)



Edit: In fact, on reflection, it's National Hunt Racing (500+ races for the top guys. 874 last season for Tony McCoy - the best ever jockey):

r361215_1667210.jpg


r266496_1114806.jpg


(The second photo is actually Australian)
 
though many mock it, i have to add proffesional wrestling to the list. The endurance levels are amazing. They perform every week of the year, often 3 or 4 times a week. To remember the moves you are scripted to make is itself amazing. Every day a new match. I dont know where they get the time to practise them. Matches last about 20 minutes, sometimes up to an hour. And the whole time you need to maintain enough energy as to not risk, any injury to yourself and more importantly your fellow performer.

All wrestlers need to be fast and strong. Its one thing to be able to lift 250 + pounds. Its another to be so strong (yes aided by lots of roids) as to be able to hold a fellow performer, and most likely close friend, well enough so that you can perform the move without injuring him. Any move, even the most basic, can end with death if botched, especially if the wrestler falls on his head, for which there is no protection, or neck. The task is yet more difficult if it comes after 20 minutes of performing. And the whole time the illusion that they are fighting eachother needs to be kept as well.
And those are just the pick up moves. What about the aero ones.
Some of the moves they attempt border on madness. Jumps, 500 degree flips, back flips, double back flips, all onto an opponent, all can and do cause injury if landing isnt 100% perfect. And with things like the backflip or the reverse backflip ( I think this one is even illegal in some places) you cant evem see the opponent, while your performing the move. They occasionally do this stuff from ladders.

Oh and even if you have all that, you need to hope the writers give you the right gimmick, otherwise its all worthless anyway.

And the injuries, and risk, madone. The chances of horrifying injury are odds on. All wrestlers have to accept they will get many of them. Broken arms, broken legs, head injuries, torn biceps, broken necks, often takes a year of rehab. Thats part of the job. Many get paralysed from it. Many are consigned to wheel chairs or get brain damage. Even the steel chair, while the impact is exaggerated on the shows, can cause concussions if used wrong. While wrestling builds itself on huge exaggerations on the seriousness of the events to the viewers, we should not underestimate how serious the events actually are to the wrestlers, once they get behind the scenes. I can only assume they are all masochists of a sort. Not to mention the sick perverted s**t they did on places like ecw where they use real barbed wire, and real fire, which the wrestler gets paid a sum to put himself through, to astonish the viewers, and is then forced to spend months in hospital recovering from.

I guess 1 testament to the injuries is the Chris Benoit story. They found that by the end ( he did a murder suicide on his wife and kid) his brain was so damaged from years of wrestling, that he had the mental capacity of a child. His was the most violent death, but every now and again I see in the papers this and that wrestler has died. Since they are in the papers, I assume these are people who make it in the wwf. Now in our thing and other sports, we do get sudden deaths, but with the exception of pantani and one or 2 others, they are usually from the lower leagues. But in wrestling, all these deaths are coming from the wwf, their equivalent of our tdf peloton. I can only imagine how many deaths there are at the lower developmental levels.

For the record i dont watch it, but i feel the performers need some credit for their very very difficult jobs.
 
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I think it gets a bit hard to compare sports when so many different factors are counted. I mean, ESPN might be right in saying that fishing is not demanding, but the punters who made that list clearly dont understand the suffering that endurance cyclists go through. By the same token, its probably a bit hard for us 60-70kg bike riders to understand the rigours of american football (by the way I do believe Australian Football to be the most difficult code simply based on fitness and skill, suffering and pain put aside).

Anyway I would say that we should probably limit our debate to sports similar to cycling where the 'difficulty' comes from the ammount of training required and the amount of time you spend with your heart rate going nuts and that wonderful taste of haemoglobin at the back of your throat.

By that token, I would have to rate XC skiing as just a little bit harder than cycling. It requires you to do pretty much threshold for an entire race and even the downhills are hard to enjoy when your legs are wobbly and you keep going cross eyed from the uphill effort.

As for carbohydrate and water storage, Biochemistry was a couple of years ago but i do believe each molecule of glycogen stores 32 water molecules along with it. So yes, a lot of water is required. One of the reasons the Atkins diet helps you loose a lot of weight in the first month.
 
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Oldman said:
Bull riding is the hardest. 8 seconds seems longer than the Tour and the odds of finishing are less...go figure.
Bull riding or professional football. You'll get the living crap knock out of you in either of those two.
 
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jimmypop said:
This one didn't even pass the sniff test. I say a botched transfusion led to that disastrous day.

The real story is that he had a hip injury and his hip had snapped out of alignment two days before the prologue. He couldn't get the power down.

Also, he was never anywhere near as good in the heat as he was in cold weather, while Ullrich was the opposite.
 
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Mambo95 said:
I've only got myself to blame. I posted it after several glasses of wine and got confused.

However, I quite like the way it's gone with the 'hardest sport' angle (rather than yet another thread about you know who).

My two pennies worth.

Over a career it's one of rugby union, rugby league or american football. Few get out of those sports without permanent damage to their bodies. Which one you pick depends on your location. I'm South Wales, so it's Union.

Over a season, I can't think of anything that matches cycling for the day to day grind. Although National Hunt racing in Britain (horse racing over jumps) is very demanding too.

On a single day, it has to be boxing (or UFC if you see that as a sport)



Edit: In fact, on reflection, it's National Hunt Racing (500+ races for the top guys. 874 last season for Tony McCoy - the best ever jockey):
(The second photo is actually Australian)


Poor horses !
Do you really like sports with animal cruelty ? :confused:

If these people do it on bike or just run that course, they will have my respect.
 
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issoisso said:
The real story is that he had a hip injury and his hip had snapped out of alignment two days before the prologue. He couldn't get the power down.

Also, he was never anywhere near as good in the heat as he was in cold weather, while Ullrich was the opposite.

Another myth :)

There are enough hot stages, where Lance was really good, same goes for Ullrich in cold and rainy stages.
Its still all about days form.
 
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I know this is a sidetrack, but pro boxing is actually a very interesting case when it comes to safety in sport, in that the modern 'safer' version of the sport is actually more dangerous and damaging than the old-fashioned version.

What it boils down to is punching people in the face. That's what causes death by brain hemorrhage in the ring, that's what causes Pugilistic Dementia and other degenerative brain conditions later in life. Now, back in the days of bare knuckle boxing, there were very few deaths in the ring. Why? Try punching someone in the face with your bare hand.

The face and head is a very well-protected and bony part of your body, and if you hit someone hard in the cheek or skull with a bare closed fist you will do as much damage to your hand as to the person you are hitting. Bare-knuckle fights in the early days of organized boxing involved much more punches to the body than the head for exactly this reason, so fights lasted longer but actually carried less danger of serious injury or death (although one has to imagine there were an awful lot of broken ribs).

In modern boxing, fighters wear huge padded gloves that allow them to repeatedly punch their opponent in the face and head very hard without hurting their hands at all, and that more than anything else is why every year around five pro boxers die from injuries sustained in fights or training.
 

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issoisso said:
The real story is that he had a hip injury and his hip had snapped out of alignment two days before the prologue. He couldn't get the power down.

Maybe this is true. It certainly doesn't explain his appearance and symptoms on that stage.
 
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issoisso said:
The real story is that he had a hip injury and his hip had snapped out of alignment two days before the prologue. He couldn't get the power down.

Also, he was never anywhere near as good in the heat as he was in cold weather, while Ullrich was the opposite.


Hmm: "If ifs and buts, were candy and nuts, oh what a party we'd have"...

If this was the "real" story, we didn't they just say as much. Why come out the next day and have Chris Comical explain on OLN how Lancer had lost 15lbs in one hour? And aren't there chiropractors in Europe?

Also, I think after that, it was even "explained" further that the REAL reason for the time trial defeat was that Ullrich had stayed on the air-conditioned bus until his start time, whereas Lance had mulled outside under the bus' awning. :rolleyes: Seriously, I remember hearing that from one of the geniuses on OLN.

I agree w/ you that Ullrich thrived in the heat. Why not just say that. "Ullrich is a great TT'ist, and loves the heat. It was tough out there today and I was a bit lacking. Kudos to Jan on a great ride." (Granted, that would take a wee bit of HUMILITY, not a certain rider's strong suit.)

Hey, maybe this is the very essence of a "myth"... Time passes, nobody can really disprove the original ridiculous pronouncement, and it just sticks. As far as I know, Paul Bunyan really did have a Blue Ox named Babe. I dare anyone to prove otherwise :D
 
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hiero2 said:
Yes, accumulation of hits - definitely causative - no question there, mate. So you must be thinking of something like this:
football-hit.jpg


Or this:
soccer-header.jpg


Tongue in cheek. I couldn't find a reference, but I do remember a ranking of injuries incurred by sport. American football was #1. Basketball was #2. Boxing didn't come in until #5 or something. My point is that boxing is highly over-rated as an injurious sport, and that most of that comes from an emotional response to a seemingly rational argument - as stated "what other sport etc".

From the same page http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/sport_injuries.html where I found those pix, and where you will also find a boxer getting his bell rung, you will find this statement:


American football is the most violent of contact sports, where impact and injury are desired with every play. Basketball ranks very highly in terms of emergency room injuries, but not so many brain or spinal cord injuries. Cycling is also extremely high in emergency room visits - but not necessarily brain or spinal cord.
http://www.nyssf.org/statistics1998.html

And, if you can figure out how to make it work for you:
http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/neiss.html

And, btw, the photo of the boxer on that page with the pix is actually an mma fight (mixed martial arts), where, I'm convinced, you have to be pumping mainline steroids to compete, and the rules are a lot more like bare-knuckle stuff at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. Real mauling. Not that I don't watch on occasion, since I was once a karateka.

Thats the most ignorant description of modern MMA I have read in a long time. If you don't know what you are talking about maybe you should refrain from commenting.
 
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NashbarShorts said:
Hmm: "If ifs and buts, were candy and nuts, oh what a party we'd have"...

If this was the "real" story, we didn't they just say as much. Why come out the next day and have Chris Comical explain on OLN how Lancer had lost 15lbs in one hour?

They didn't come out with that immediately because it's not smart to publicly give away a major weakness, and didn't do so later because it's Bruyneel and Armstrong....do you EVER expect them to be truthful?

NashbarShorts said:
And aren't there chiropractors in Europe?

It's a serious condition and recovery isn't instantaneous, quite far from it in fact? Mike Anderson said Lance had to be carried up the stairs after the prologue. That's how much trouble he was having.
 
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NashbarShorts said:
Why not just say that. "Ullrich is a great TT'ist, and loves the heat. It was tough out there today and I was a bit lacking. Kudos to Jan on a great ride." (Granted, that would take a wee bit of HUMILITY, not a certain rider's strong suit.)
Though to be fair he did give Der Kaiser the congratulatory head nod of respect as they crossed paths on the way to the podium. (for real check out the DVD).
 

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issoisso said:
They didn't come out with that immediately because it's not smart to publicly give away a major weakness, and didn't do so later because it's Bruyneel and Armstrong....do you EVER expect them to be truthful?



It's a serious condition and recovery isn't instantaneous, quite far from it in fact? Mike Anderson said Lance had to be carried up the stairs after the prologue. That's how much trouble he was having.

Sorry, I didn't read your post history before replying.

Do they send out patches and a signed letter for being part of the Armstrong Internet Defense Brigade? A decoder ring, at least?

My assumption about a botched transfusion is just as far more likely as your BS about a hip problem.
 
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NashbarShorts said:
Hmm: "If ifs and buts, were candy and nuts, oh what a party we'd have"...

If this was the "real" story, we didn't they just say as much. Why come out the next day and have Chris Comical explain on OLN how Lancer had lost 15lbs in one hour? And aren't there chiropractors in Europe?

Also, I think after that, it was even "explained" further that the REAL reason for the time trial defeat was that Ullrich had stayed on the air-conditioned bus until his start time, whereas Lance had mulled outside under the bus' awning. :rolleyes: Seriously, I remember hearing that from one of the geniuses on OLN.

I agree w/ you that Ullrich thrived in the heat. Why not just say that. "Ullrich is a great TT'ist, and loves the heat. It was tough out there today and I was a bit lacking. Kudos to Jan on a great ride." (Granted, that would take a wee bit of HUMILITY, not a certain rider's strong suit.)

Hey, maybe this is the very essence of a "myth"... Time passes, nobody can really disprove the original ridiculous pronouncement, and it just sticks. As far as I know, Paul Bunyan really did have a Blue Ox named Babe. I dare anyone to prove otherwise :D

I hope that I understood all you meant because your English is not the easiest for me to understand.

I remember that day really well. Partyday.
First thing I remember well is that Armstrong praised Ullrich and also claimed that dehydration issue. Point. Ullrich undoubtable did a great ride and would perhaps have beaten Armstrong anyway - but not with such a big gap.
It was also was obvious that Armstrong wasn´t at 100% that day - but still got 2nd. He really fighted his a** off in these days and you could see that he didn´t ride "round".

I did never hear or read from that Carmichael 15lbs statement and I also couldn´t read it yesterday because you didn´t leave a link.
I only heard and remember something about dehydration at that day of the TT.
Just to make it clear:
I didn´t doubt that Carmichael said something about that day.
But now I had to search myself and read it, to judge this statement and have a look, if he really said, what you "quoted".
I hope that I found the original version of the "discourse". Search was hard.

To first thing:
Why not say something like Armstrong did after the stage:
"Jan rode a super time trial today. I had a bad day today, and the great heat was in Jan´s favors."
"I have suffered," "Before the last climb I had an incredible crisis. I did not have enough water there"
"Maybe it was too hot. I was never that thirsty in a time trial before."

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Second thing about the 15lbs story
which, to me, doesn´t look like an excuse

(in my opinion, there is only a need for that, when you were really really bad) and also doesn´t seem to me, like he has been quickly forced to shoot out an excuse and make Ullrich´s performance worse

but just a short discourse or thoughts about dehydration and Lance´s performance and I doubt that these Carmichaels discourses are unique and only appeared on that one day after this "bad" performance:

Carmichael original! statement:
An elite cyclist has three main obstacles on the road to success: crashing, bonking, and getting dehydrated. Lance Armstrong lost over six kilograms of body weight between waking up and finishing Stage 12 yesterday, all of it fluid. That's 8% of his body weight! The fact that he lost some of his power was understandable, and the facts he rode as well as he did yesterday and today are remarkable.

Of a cyclist's three main obstacles, crashing is sometimes preferable because if it is a minor fall, once you chase back on you can continue racing at full power. On the hand, once you run out of either fuel (bonking)
or fluids (dehydration), there's no way to regain your power until you replenish what you're missing. A 2% loss of body weight due to dehydration leads to a 10-15% drop in sustainable power. If you lose 5-8% of your body weight, you can lose at least 20% of your power. Such extreme fluid loss also puts you at serious risk for heat exhaustion, a condition characterized by a rise in core temperature due to a decreased ability to cool the body through sweating.

Dehydration has other, more far-reaching effects on performance as well. In an effort to continue racing at high speed, a dehydrated rider has to dig very deep and expend more energy per unit time than normal. That means that even though Lance was slower than usual during Stage 12, his effort level was higher than normal. Recovering from such an effort, and replenishing his lost fluids, takes time.

Lance Armstrong knew today was going to be tough. Your body is more efficient at pulling fluids out of your body than it is replenishing them.
It takes more than 24 hours to recover from dehydrating to the extent he did, no matter how much you drink. Following Stage 12, Lance consumed a lot of water and a lot of sports drink in an effort to regain the fluids, electrolytes, and energy he lost earlier in the day. By this morning, his waking body weight (measured after using the bathroom) was nearly normal, but he knew he would feel the lingering effects of the ordeal during Stage
13......



So, that sounds a little bit different than "15lbs in ONE HOUR", "9%".
But you were really close with 9 % - no doubt. ;)

Last question(s) for my education of pound:
How much is 15 lbs in "kg" ?
Which lbs is meant ? I read that there are 2 ways of converting "pound" into "kg" and the other way around.
Is 15lbs = 6kg ?
Or is 15lbs = little bit more that 4 kg ?
Can Carmichel convert lbs into kg and the other way around with both kinds of "pound" ? :)
 
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issoisso said:
They didn't come out with that immediately because it's not smart to publicly give away a major weakness, and didn't do so later because it's Bruyneel and Armstrong....do you EVER expect them to be truthful?



It's a serious condition and recovery isn't instantaneous, quite far from it in fact? Mike Anderson said Lance had to be carried up the stairs after the prologue. That's how much trouble he was having.

Good point that I actually thought of having to use it later for some answers/questions that perhaps! appear.
Now I don´t have to hide it in the drawer for later :D
 
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FWIW Carmichael would have been speaking to an American audience so as far as I know 1kg=2.2 lbs. as for the dehydration thats a talking point w/ Phil & Paul and Lance on the next stages and gets big play in his book.
 
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Cobblestoned said:
Carmichael original! statement:
An elite cyclist has three main obstacles on the road to success: crashing, bonking, and getting dehydrated. Lance Armstrong lost over six kilograms of body weight between waking up and finishing Stage 12 yesterday, all of it fluid. That's 8% of his body weight! The fact that he lost some of his power was understandable, and the facts he rode as well as he did yesterday and today are remarkable.

Of a cyclist's three main obstacles, crashing is sometimes preferable because if it is a minor fall, once you chase back on you can continue racing at full power. On the hand, once you run out of either fuel (bonking)
or fluids (dehydration), there's no way to regain your power until you replenish what you're missing. A 2% loss of body weight due to dehydration leads to a 10-15% drop in sustainable power. If you lose 5-8% of your body weight, you can lose at least 20% of your power. Such extreme fluid loss also puts you at serious risk for heat exhaustion, a condition characterized by a rise in core temperature due to a decreased ability to cool the body through sweating.

Dehydration has other, more far-reaching effects on performance as well. In an effort to continue racing at high speed, a dehydrated rider has to dig very deep and expend more energy per unit time than normal. That means that even though Lance was slower than usual during Stage 12, his effort level was higher than normal. Recovering from such an effort, and replenishing his lost fluids, takes time.

Would you go further about the influence of dehydration on hematocrit?

How much should have been dehydrated in the morning to have his 45% hematocrit at 2009 TDF Ventoux stage?

Or how he went to 47-49% during his winning TDF?

Good to see you shooting in your feet, stomach then head by bringing such arguments! Boomerang effect.:D
 
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Cobblestoned said:
I hope that I understood all you meant because your English is not the easiest for me to understand.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Second thing about the 15lbs story
which, to me, doesn´t look like an excuse

(in my opinion, there is only a need for that, when you were really really bad) and also doesn´t seem to me, like he has been quickly forced to shoot out an excuse and make Ullrich´s performance worse

but just a short discourse or thoughts about dehydration and Lance´s performance and I doubt that these Carmichaels discourses are unique and only appeared on that one day after this "bad" performance:

Carmichael original! statement:
An elite cyclist has three main obstacles on the road to success: crashing, bonking, and getting dehydrated. Lance Armstrong lost over six kilograms of body weight between waking up and finishing Stage 12 yesterday, all of it fluid. That's 8% of his body weight! The fact that he lost some of his power was understandable, and the facts he rode as well as he did yesterday and today are remarkable.

Of a cyclist's three main obstacles, crashing is sometimes preferable because if it is a minor fall, once you chase back on you can continue racing at full power. On the hand, once you run out of either fuel (bonking)
or fluids (dehydration), there's no way to regain your power until you replenish what you're missing. A 2% loss of body weight due to dehydration leads to a 10-15% drop in sustainable power. If you lose 5-8% of your body weight, you can lose at least 20% of your power. Such extreme fluid loss also puts you at serious risk for heat exhaustion, a condition characterized by a rise in core temperature due to a decreased ability to cool the body through sweating.

Dehydration has other, more far-reaching effects on performance as well. In an effort to continue racing at high speed, a dehydrated rider has to dig very deep and expend more energy per unit time than normal. That means that even though Lance was slower than usual during Stage 12, his effort level was higher than normal. Recovering from such an effort, and replenishing his lost fluids, takes time.

Lance Armstrong knew today was going to be tough. Your body is more efficient at pulling fluids out of your body than it is replenishing them.
It takes more than 24 hours to recover from dehydrating to the extent he did, no matter how much you drink. Following Stage 12, Lance consumed a lot of water and a lot of sports drink in an effort to regain the fluids, electrolytes, and energy he lost earlier in the day. By this morning, his waking body weight (measured after using the bathroom) was nearly normal, but he knew he would feel the lingering effects of the ordeal during Stage
13......



So, that sounds a little bit different than "15lbs in ONE HOUR", "9%".
But you were really close with 9 % - no doubt. ;)

Last question(s) for my education of pound:
How much is 15 lbs in "kg" ?
Which lbs is meant ? I read that there are 2 ways of converting "pound" into "kg" and the other way around.
Is 15lbs = 6kg ?
Or is 15lbs = little bit more that 4 kg ?
Can Carmichel convert lbs into kg and the other way around with both kinds of "pound" ? :)

You actually believe any rider lost that much weight? He's got enough water carriers and pushers around him to gain weight and, unless he openned up a vein he's not going to lose that much fluid weight in 4 hours.
 
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Oldman said:
You actually believe any rider lost that much weight? He's got enough water carriers and pushers around him to gain weight and, unless he openned up a vein he's not going to lose that much fluid weight in 4 hours.


What ? Carriers pushers, four hours ?
 
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poupou said:
Would you go further about the influence of dehydration on hematocrit?

How much should have been dehydrated in the morning to have his 45% hematocrit at 2009 TDF Ventoux stage?

Or how he went to 47-49% during his winning TDF?

Good to see you shooting in your feet, stomach then head by bringing such arguments! Boomerang effect.:D

Thats not the point and I don´t see me shooting in my feet anywhere.
You seem to be very confused.
I am talking about a 2003 TT (day), myths, dehydration, wrong facts/posts - and now you start talking about hematocrit and Mont Ventoux ?
No, I won´t go any further with your desperation and my sniperskills. But you can come with me. Here is my hand. :D
 
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issoisso said:
It's a serious condition and recovery isn't instantaneous, quite far from it in fact? Mike Anderson said Lance had to be carried up the stairs after the prologue. That's how much trouble he was having.

To be fair, Lance makes them carry him up stairs after every stage, win or lose.