Bikepure - Omerta

[filipo]

(Wiggins) had an implied criticism for Garmin's DS at last year's tour, saying that Sky wouldn't have been caught out with the head wind split, because they'd warn the riders of turns ahead.

:lol::lol:

Qatar:

Team Sky started stage two with Edvald Boasson Hagen in the overall race leader's gold jersey after their dominant display in the opening team time trial. But it definitely was not their day and everyone else took full advantage and was quick to give them a lesson in echelon racing.

Oman:

Bennati took the overall lead, as former leader Edvald Boasson Hagen (Team Sky) lost 1:05. Winds split the peloton in the latter part of the stage, and the young Norwegian was not in the first group.

 

[ludwig]

Sorry, but that article shows a complete misunderstanding of Omertá. I hope it's just naivete and not deliberate.

Some quotes that stand out as pure BS:

No. Riccò is lambasted BECAUSE HE BROKE OMERTÁ...he's also a bit of a scumbag, but mostly it's the breaking-omertá thing.

Bzzzzzzzzt. Vino is a scapegoat. Why him? Because he's from the dirty doper nation of Kazakhstan, of course.Tell that to Bernhard Kohl.

Right on. Hopefully BikePure is having a positive effect on the sport, but appearances suggest its a propaganda vehicle. Like you I hope it's just naivete and misplaced optimism rather then deliberate misinformation.

 

[Digger]

:lol::lol:

Qatar:


Oman:

Great stuff Filipo.

 

[the truth.]

Omerta is not dead , but it is dying

Cav and McEumouthy have broken the taboo about openly dumping on a member of the peloton.

the more riders who speak out the better. a good start

 

[blackcat]

Getting back to the OP, I personally think that everyone in the pro peloton dopes to a certain extent. That certain extent being recovery mainly. Using drugs to make the riders feel normal after a grueling day and to recover well enough so that we can seem them all on TV the next day racing at a pace that we would expect to see at the pro level is the main intent here. This sucks but it is what it is - The omerta IMO more likely protects this and the new passport assists in regulating "acceptable" toleraces for these drugs/blood values.

I think from Cav and RM's perspective, when someone goes overboard and it's blatently obvious that their mega-jacked by the way that they attack and fly up hills (i.e. Ricco and Vino; DiLuca at the Giro - still scratching the head over Menchov), that's what makes these guys idiots and is ultimately seen as bad for the sport. On top of it, they deny everything when caught. Look how Sastre won the tour in 08' - from one well planned attack. Compare that to the way Ricco climbs. Just my 2 cents.

but Cav is a mediocre talent, with a brilliant sprint. He should not be able to make the finish at San Remo. It would take him multiple transfusions among other gear to get over the Cipressa and Poggio. No way. So dont sat, these guys who are winning 30 times a year, are not mega jacked.

 

[blackcat]

David Millar and Michelle Smith would disagree. Kimmage's kids got bullied here in Ireland over the way he questioned Smith. So that's unfair.
I will conced that Wiggins has not been quuestioned enough by these two. Although Paul did interrogate him about him welcoming Lance back into the sport.

The one thing about Wiggins, is that Kimmage, Walsh, you and me, not believing in him is one thing. Being strongly convinced is again one thing....but there isn't that much evidence against him to justfiy a piece on a Sunday. And for the record, I believe he doped. But all we have is that big improvement and blood values in the third week. It would be hard to get 2000 words out of that on a Sunday.

P.S. Kimmage and Walsh have also called out Vino, Rasmussen, Contador, Basso, Landis, Roche and Kelly.

not in the last 12 months. I was specific. If they attack StrongArm's comeback, they oughta go a few other riders. Dont mean a 1000 word article in the Sunday Times. There are other options.

 

[blackcat]

Omerta is not dead , but it is dying

Cav and McEumouthy have broken the taboo about openly dumping on a member of the peloton.

the more riders who speak out the better. a good start

completely wrong, like one said previously. They are dumping on an easy target. They are perpetuating the Liggett paradigm of "a few bad apples" "it is getting better" by bagging on one rider like Vino. This is more myth making, than denying the sport is clean. Saying one rider is all there is, and making him hold the responsibility for all the sport, that is pure scapegoating.

Dont know why BikePure should have any part of this. Sounds like they are just a propaganda organisation.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Right on. Hopefully BikePure is having a positive effect on the sport, but appearances suggest its a propaganda vehicle. Like you I hope it's just naivete and misplaced optimism rather then deliberate misinformation.

I agree with your comment's.

One point here is that the article published on BikePure appears to have been an article published elsewhere - so from my understanding it is not a BikePure article, per se. (I know the BP guys posted here before - so perhaps they could confirm that)

I think the idea and philosophy behind BikePure is brilliant.
However - when the sport of Cycling has as many positive tests as it did last year, which were highlighted on the BikePure website - I find it difficult to understand the trust and acceptance the article appears to give certain teams and riders.

 

[Grilled]

Who? What?

Cav - Ricco - Parasite

Millar - Gaumont - Nutter

Is it any different?

 

[Digger]

not in the last 12 months. I was specific. If they attack StrongArm's comeback, they oughta go a few other riders. Dont mean a 1000 word article in the Sunday Times. There are other options.

Kimmage wrote a very tough piece on Sky and Brailsford only two months ago, where he basically said that Sky were making themselves out to be a clean team, only to keep up appearances.

 

[BroDeal]

I don't even know what to think about that article. My first thought was to marvel at the sheer stupidity of it. The logic makes no sense, and their examples prove the opposite of what is being asserted. Then good old reliable cynicism kicked in, and I laughed. Bike Pure is a joke, and it must have been a joke all along. I expect to hear any day now that Pat McQuaid, Phil Ligget, and Lance Armstrong have joined.

 

[irishpeloton]

The debate here makes for great reading. I wrote the article from the point of view that Omerta is dying, for which there is some evidence. Obviously, the counter argument can be made, that it isn't dying at all, for which there is plenty of evidence. But the point was to spark debate.

Naivety? Misinformation? No. Foolish optimism? Absolutely. This sport has tried all of our patience over the years, constantly giving us reasons to no longer believe in the credibility of it, and yet we all still watch it. With what else but foolish optimism do we wait to find out the results of the next race, with past experience telling us that all or any of the top finishers of a given race could test positive the next day?

There'll always be people willing to cheat, I think we'll all agree on that. But given a choice between pessimism and foolish optimism? I'll be the fool every time.

 

[craig1985]

So blackcat, in your all wisdom, how many of those riders are full of BS? I think bikepure has a lot of good intentions, but I don't agree with some of their policies. Fours years for a first offence and life bans won't work, just as the death penalty doesn't act as a deterrence.

 

[pmcg76]

So blackcat, in your all wisdom, how many of those riders are full of BS? I think bikepure has a lot of good intentions, but I don't agree with some of their policies. Fours years for a first offence and life bans won't work, just as the death penalty doesn't act as a deterrence.

Blackcat believes EVERYBODY dopes, just at different levels of doping. If anybody does anything in cycling, they are definitely jacked. The Blackcat mantra is guilty until proven innocent. Blackcat wants Kimmage & Walsh to question the Irish guys as to how they got be decent middle ranking pros!!

 

[craig1985]

blackcat is also full of ****. I have inside info on this.

 

[BikePure NY]

bikepure.

Morning/Evening all.

I am a regular reader of this section of the site, as behind the odd bit of muck spreading, the concise and informed opinion here does educate.

The beauty of this forum is people express their honest judgment not tied in the most cases by open ID- it is this honesty that inspired me to respond. (Sorry for the mass of text below, but I respect all opinions and took time to address each of them)

Thanks to Dimspace for opening the thread- and sorry Blackcat you think we are part of the problem- honestly hope to be part of the solution.

The ethos behind BikePure is simple- to promote clean riders as role models to the youth and ban and forget the dopers. We use convicted drug cheats to illustrate how drugs can detrimentally alter life, on and off the bike.


The article in question was written by one of our ambassadors. Anyone can volunteer to be one- all we ask is :

Thank you for pledging effort to help our sport and tackle a damaged system. We ask you never bring cycling into disrepute and work within the following core principals:

- Preserve the honesty and honor of the cyclist
- Respect fellow competitors and the appreciation of all endeavours
- Protect the mental and physical health of current and future champions
- Upholding the ethics and essence cycle sport
- Create a positive environment where an athlete can achieve one’s natural, maximum potential.

…………….And I do trust the individual who wrote it, and me who uploaded it, wrote it in the honest, open opinion that adheres to all of the above. The ‘selective’ out-pouring against cheats from sections of the peloton, is progress.

We are not going to be perfect in statements (even nearly), I'm sure you could pick holes in each article written, (especially my spell6ing) - But importantly we TRY to act for the good of cycling. Admitting that our sport has had enough attempts at suicide, we are simply trying to return something to the sport we love. If even a few have the high profile riders vilify the dopers it will begin to change opinions. The race organizers/teams don’t invite the returning cheats to compete- all progress. A step closer.

Anyone who reads or posts to the clinic cares about cycling. They are disgusted by the drug problem within the sport and solutions do exist in the opinions.

To raise Dr. Maserati point- we ask the riders who sign the commitment The Pledge not to cheat, is not between the rider and Bike Pure - But the between rider and his friends, family, fans and team mates. It is the choice to ride clean and with Honor. BP is simply a medium to let the world know the athlete has taken this decision to respect his sport and the elements within.” http://bikepure.org/resources/

Digger: I wish
BRODEAL , sorry, we will try harder and so far I'm not aware that Mc Quaid or LA has joined (but Mr Ligget said it was a good thing)

Blackcat: We cannot act on suspicion, your mudsling calling riders dopers- cause you think they are! Helps no one. Cycling has had enough bad press. We all have the thoughts ‘he is on something’ because the trust is gone. Thats why we exist. But until proven, we cannot act. We are about trying to restore the trust. NOT YAP ABOUT IT- go for a spin and re-find out why you started cycling (O- that felt good)!

Kerbgog- would make great TV.

craig1985: we are revising the ban system we are proposing. There has to be a system in place, the current one isn’t working-I will post it here next week for discussion/opinions/obliteration (delete as appropriate)

Ludwig: we will try harder.
Thetruth: agreed

We are all volunteers and cyclists- our message and actions are all driven only to help cycle sport repair itself. NOTHING ELSE.

Opinions will vary on how we perform , If you think we are wide of the mark, help us to focus. PLEASE (workable, feasible) advice is encouraged info@bikepuredotorg.

 

[Kerbdog]

Great to see Bikepure members enter the discussion & very welcome you are. Your right there is no point in eternal pessimism, i couldnt watch cycling on Tv or go to a race just giving up on all of them because i felt all of them were jacked. For the record i dont think all are boosted, not 100 %. You just hope those that are that are fooling the rest do get caught. Yeah its bad press but thats how you get rid of them. And yeah I know all about the percentage of Podium positives & implications also, im not blinkered entirely.
To go back to my point i made earlier, i used Wiggins as an example as i like his attitude & could picture him giving someone grief. He was mouthing off at a couple on Verbier last year in the Tour to follow him. I picked him cos for whatever reason i feel the guy could be clean. Im not sure why, maybe its his attitude, the fact he goes on about been clean & hating the rest for sullying the sport (Moreni etc). Of course i could be wrong & maybe it will blow up in my face one day. Ill live with it then. As stated above Foolish optimism maybe but whats the harm in having it?
Previously some posters went on about Wiggins values last year, could you please provide a link to that or a basic explanation just so i may see as i havent seen that yet.
Also the Irish riders were pointed at earlier, could someone shine a light on that fully please & back it up.
Kimmage put a piece in the revised edition of Rough Ride a few years ago clearing the confusion that eminated from the original publication regarding Roche & Kelly. If he has said anything since id like to read it as i havent yet. And yes im aware of the Roche Conconi issue but im only interested in the Kimmage part mentioned above.
No use giving up on all of them, pointless for you to keep watching when you could be doing or watching something more positive for your life. But look regardless of views we enjoy watching it right?

 

[BikePure NY]

If we didnt have riders to support and delight from- your are right- why would we watch it! I loved the LA - Ulrich battles and to see Jan now, destroyed- my hero in 1997 - it leaves your faith bruised and the desire to put all support behind a rider- shaky.

I'm am not naive to think just natural ability is winning stages.

Do trust Wiggins. Not because anyone knows if he is actually clean, but because its our sport and we need heroes . 'Feeling' a rider is clean, at the minute has to be enough until the testing is improved to guarantee support . I support the riders taking time to be outspoken because the admit the damage that dope is doing to the sport is a major first step.

'dreaming' is better than the nightmare reality that the sport endured during the EPOed 1990's and beyond.

 

[Anonymous]

Kimmage wrote a very tough piece on Sky and Brailsford only two months ago, where he basically said that Sky were making themselves out to be a clean team, only to keep up appearances.

got a link.. would make interesting reading..

 

[luckyboy]

Wonder why Garmin and Sky haven't joined BikePure. They both have a good few riders signed up. Also, Wiggins (though I really don't trust him).

Back to the article - I agree with most of the points raised - Omerta is very much alive.

 

[Big GMaC]

I'm am not naive to think just natural ability is winning stages.

Would you or your organisation ever consider publically calling a rider out about their achievements? One of your own members? I see Daryl Impey is a member, yet he has just moved to RadioShack which is run by a set of guys straight out of 'the EPO nightmare' so do you still believe him to be clean? Without actively calling people out or encouraging members to call people out before convictions you do little to remove Omerta and in fact add the mirage of being in the organisation and therefore clean to the problem

Do trust Wiggins. Not because anyone knows if he is actually clean, but because its our sport and we need heroes . 'Feeling' a rider is clean, at the minute has to be enough until the testing is improved to guarantee support . I support the riders taking time to be outspoken because the admit the damage that dope is doing to the sport is a major first step.

That seems like a pretty weak man's argument. Armstrong is not my hero, but he is a lot of people's hero and it is through hero worship that people are prepared to overlook wrongdoing, prepared to turn a blind eye, infatuated to a point where they believe the impossible to be possible. The testing will never improve to guarantee, not when you can have Pat McQuaid state in advance of a Tour that it will be clean. Testing has always been behind the drugs and is now being pushed further behind by a corrupt organisation who continue to prop up some of the biggest dopers in the sport, whilst side-lining the opinions of people who really want to see positive change like LeMond. Why not have your riders follow his testing scheme? SRM monitor their bikes, take VO2s, do sub maximal VO2 max tests during races, and if unfortunately one of your riders has messed up, been presumed to mess up, hold them accountable, even if they are a high standing rider in your organisation

'dreaming' is better than the nightmare reality that the sport endured during the EPOed 1990's and beyond.

Holding people up as false heroes, not knowing if they are clean or not yet continuing to believe is exactly the attitude that will return the sport to the nightmare of the 1990s and the DopeStrong eras, yet this time it will be worse as the governing bodies themselves will be covering up tests, protecting riders etc. as they probably have been doing already

 

[Anonymous]

Would you or your organisation ever consider publically calling a rider out about their achievements? One of your own members? I see Daryl Impey is a member, yet he has just moved to RadioShack which is run by a set of guys straight out of 'the EPO nightmare' so do you still believe him to be clean? Without actively calling people out or encouraging members to call people out before convictions you do little to remove Omerta and in fact add the mirage of being in the organisation and therefore clean to the problem

Sorry for using your comment as a basis of a rant, GMaC, so please don't take it personally:

But how can an organisation accuse riders of doping without evidence, without either

a) losing all credibility amongst the riders and therefore losing any influence the may have; and/or
b) facing a massive lawsuit every other day.

People may criticise Bikepure for whatever reason, but at least they are doing SOMETHING. Too many people are willing to sit around on their ar5es criticising others, but never try to do anything themselves. If you don't like something, do something about it. If you can't be bothered to do anything, then don't just sit around complaining about others that are trying.

Ok, Bikepure isn't perfect by any means, but it's still a relatively young organisation. Maybe in 5 years or so they may be in a position to make a difference, maybe by helping riders who do break Omerta by providing legal assistance, career advice to help them in their new life, assistance to find new training in different skills, or whatever, in exchange for information on drugs or doping methods to help fight the good fight.

But for now instead of whinging about how good or bad they are, do something constructive. If you have ideas on how they can improve, let them know. If you have something to say, write an article for them! But what is the point in trying to undermine or destroy something that is working to a common good?

 

[Big GMaC]

Sorry for using your comment as a basis of a rant, GMaC, so please don't take it personally:

But for now instead of whinging about how good or bad they are, do something constructive. If you have ideas on how they can improve, let them know. If you have something to say, write an article for them! But what is the point in trying to undermine or destroy something that is working to a common good?

Ha, I wasn't really being too arrow straight analytical in my post, it was pretty much a vent itself.

Yes it is a young organisation and I accept the legal thing about calling people out, but what are the barriers to entry for riders? Can they just rock and and be like, I want to be a member? Or can they refuse people? If so, publish who they have refuse, not why maybe, but just who. That way it would move them further apart as it would be showing there was some kind of criteria/demonstration of cleanliness needed to become a member. Above somewhere jokingly said that Armstrong ending up as a member would highlight how it was part of omerta rather than the solution. Would they refuse him membership?

 

[Anonymous]

Ha, I wasn't really being too arrow straight analytical in my post, it was pretty much a vent itself.

Yes it is a young organisation and I accept the legal thing about calling people out, but what are the barriers to entry for riders? Can they just rock and and be like, I want to be a member? Or can they refuse people? If so, publish who they have refuse, not why maybe, but just who. That way it would move them further apart as it would be showing there was some kind of criteria/demonstration of cleanliness needed to become a member. Above somewhere jokingly said that Armstrong ending up as a member would highlight how it was part of omerta rather than the solution. Would they refuse him membership?

Yeah, I get your point and agree to a certain extent. If they have valid, reliable information that a rider has doped, then they should be kicked out. But it's a very difficult area, for example should David Millar be welcomed?

As for the LA thing, seeing as he blocked them from Twitter I don't think him wanting to join will be a problem they have to deal with!

 

[blackcat]

Cycling has had enough bad press.

disagree. Cycling has not had enough bad press, relative to the reality. No one every investigated CSC and Columbia from 2008, and their supposed CERA positives, 1 thu 9, on their teams at the Tour. That was coming from Vasseur, and surely it went thru a section of the press corps in the months after, and they refused to pursue.

If the real occurrences actually saw the light of day, perhaps there would be a change. I don't, and probably none other, on this board, knows what goes on in the hotel rooms and training camps of the GC competitors, and the other major winners. If someone exposed it all, perhaps they could minimise the doperz. As is, how is Armstrong invited back, and check how many of the young riders, have him as their "rider you look up to". If it is good enough for StrongArm, it is good enough for the rest.