Bill Cosby

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Jan 27, 2013
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aphronesis said:
Physical, non-physical, physical psychological, material, non-material, stated, unstated, implied, explicit, anonymous intimate, anonymous, anonymous extimate, personal, objectified, desubjectified, objectified, instantiated, soul, body, identity, thingness, powerless, the surface of power's manifestation, or beliefs there in, or cultural limits......
Right, what does it all mean...I doubt it means much to someone that's been raped but teasing out subtle distinctions, meanings and interpretations is a fun academic game.
 
RetroActive said:
Right, what does it all mean...I doubt it means much to someone that's been raped but teasing out subtle distinctions, meanings and interpretations is a fun academic game.
If it were an academic game it would not be the contested issue that it is.

Nothing "means" anything other than the language assigned to it and, in your terms, the materiality invested in its destruction or perpetuation.

For those experiencing or undergoing it, it means vastly different things depending on their socio-political-economic formation, their psychological strength, their need to identify, remember, forget, acquiesce and so on.

But also for those perpetuating it. Which is the only reason why I contested Hrotha's original intervention. The vagaries of it have been reduced to a pinpoint in liberal/juridical discourse.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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aphronesis said:
If it were an academic game it would not be the contested issue that it is.

Nothing "means" anything other than the language assigned to it and, in your terms, the materiality invested in its destruction or perpetuation.

For those experiencing or undergoing it, it means vastly different things depending on their socio-political-economic formation, their psychological strength, their need to identify, remember, forget, acquiesce and so on.

But also for those perpetuating it. Which is the only reason why I contested Hrotha's original intervention. The vagaries of it have been reduced to a pinpoint in liberal/juridical discourse.
yeah, yeah...I get it. What they have in common is that they were forced, against their will, to have sex. Of course it's endless after that, everyone's an individual and every experience is unique.
 
RetroActive said:
yeah, yeah...I get it. What they have in common is that they were forced, against their will, to have sex. Of course it's endless after that, everyone's an individual and every experience is unique.
Oh, ok. So at what point did sex become sex and not just reproduction. Cognitive and experiential as opposed to biological urge. 50,000 years ago, 3000 years ago? When did the cultural and physiological get doubled down? 300 years ago?

What they all have in common might be the least denominator. So how has it been elevated?
 
Jan 27, 2013
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aphronesis said:
Oh, ok. So at what point did sex become sex and not just reproduction. Cognitive and experiential as opposed to biological urge. 50,000 years ago, 3000 years ago? When did the cultural and physiological get doubled down? 300 years ago?

Surely one of your cosmological range must have a line on that?
lol, I could arbitrarily pull out the highlighter but I'd just be arbitrarily pulling out the highlighter.

If we can't agree on some basic definitions then we're not cutting through the fog, we're lost in it.
 
RetroActive said:
lol, I could arbitrarily pull out the highlighter but I'd just be arbitrarily pulling out the highlighter.

If we can't agree on some basic definitions then we're not cutting through the fog, we're lost in it.
Why do you imagine there should be basic definitions concerning something that assumes a degree of sacral profanation in contemporary society?

I'm not at all in loss on this. Cosby's a sad case, as are his "peers" in the power/prestige/rape circles. But nothing about that is in basic conflict with usual critiques of late modernist culture that you participate in.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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aphronesis said:
Why do you imagine there should be basic definitions concerning something that assumes a degree of sacral profanation in contemporary society?

I'm not at all in loss on this. Cosby's a sad case, as are his "peers" in the power/prestige/rape circles. But nothing about that is in basic conflict with usual critiques of late modernist culture that you participate in.
If nothing else we've scratched the surface as to how confusing all this is, why people don't come forward and how the perps. get away with it.

I'm at a loss but I can agree with the bolded entirely.
 
Flor, if I understand you correctly, you’re drawing a distinction between violent and forced. Yes, you can use force by drugging someone, then have gentle sex which would not be considered violent. I think that is what you have in mind?

But as a practical matter, both force and violence are used in this context to make someone act against her will or desires, so I don’t think the distinction is very meaningful. In any case, the distinction is one even we native English speakers might quibble over, so I think it’s hardly fair to criticize Foxxy for not making it. The bottom line to me is that we all agree that drugging someone to ensure submission is a criminal act, just as much as say, hitting them and holding them down to make them comply, so the various words we use to describe the process are irrelevant.

Also, while Foxxy can speak for himself, I don’t think he said that blowjobs don’t count as rape. In fact, in the article I discussed upthread, taken from the site that Foxxy linked to as evidence of a high proportion of false allegations of rape, oral sex was mentioned when discussing the various kinds of rape, so I can’t imagine anyone arguing that blow jobs couldn’t be a form of rape. I think you came to this conclusion from his use of the word penetration, but if you want to get technical, that term can apply just as much to blow jobs as to vaginal sex. In any case, again, taking the liberty of trying to interpret Foxxy, I think he just meant that there has to be some kind of physical contact for rape to occur, not that there had to be vaginal penetration.

Anyway, these discussions of definitions are sidetracking. The important issue that Foxxy raised is false allegations. How frequent are they, and how often do they end up with a man falsely imprisoned, his reputation ruined, etc.? This is something I think worth discussing here, though again, I don’t think it’s relevant to Cosby’s case.

I do think Foxxy goes overboard claiming that Grant, Woods, etc. are tainted by this. No one is comparing what they did with what Cosby is alleged to have done. In fact, when people become wealthy in large part because they are constantly in the media, it's hypocritical to complain when the same media highlight their flaws.
 
Merckx index said:
Flor, if I understand you correctly, you’re drawing a distinction between violent and forced. Yes, you can use force by drugging someone, then have gentle sex which would not be considered violent. I think that is what you have in mind?

But as a practical matter, both force and violence are used in this context to make someone act against her will or desires, so I don’t think the distinction is very meaningful. In any case, the distinction is one even we native English speakers might quibble over, so I think it’s hardly fair to criticize Foxxy for not making it. The bottom line to me is that we all agree that drugging someone to ensure submission is a criminal act, just as much as say, hitting them and holding them down to make them comply, so the various words we use to describe the process are irrelevant.

Also, while Foxxy can speak for himself, I don’t think he said that blowjobs don’t count as rape. In fact, in the article I discussed upthread, taken from the site that Foxxy linked to as evidence of a high proportion of false allegations of rape, oral sex was mentioned when discussing the various kinds of rape, so I can’t imagine anyone arguing that blow jobs couldn’t be a form of rape. I think you came to this conclusion from his use of the word penetration, but if you want to get technical, that term can apply just as much to blow jobs as to vaginal sex. In any case, again, taking the liberty of trying to interpret Foxxy, I think he just meant that there has to be some kind of physical contact for rape to occur, not that there had to be vaginal penetration.

Anyway, these discussions of definitions are sidetracking. The important issue that Foxxy raised is false allegations. How frequent are they, and how often do they end up with a man falsely imprisoned, his reputation ruined, etc.? This is something I think worth discussing here, though again, I don’t think it’s relevant to Cosby’s case.

I do think Foxxy goes overboard claiming that Grant, Woods, etc. are tainted by this. No one is comparing what they did with what Cosby is alleged to have done. In fact, when people become wealthy in large part because they are constantly in the media, it's hypocritical to complain when the same media highlight their flaws.
Good post but I'm going to make a call on this thread and close it. Anyone who disagrees have the usual avenues of complaint.
 
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