Bill Cosby

[hrotha]

I fail to see how "Cosby could get laid whenever he wanted so why would he rape" is some form of sophisticated subtle debate. It's not about using a "party line", it's about clearing up some very basic misconceptions about rape.

Having consensual sex is about power only in the most generic, useless sense. Which was the sense you, not me, started using.

 

[aphronesis]

I fail to see how "Cosby could get laid whenever he wanted so why would he rape" is some form of sophisticated subtle debate. It's not about using a "party line", it's about clearing up some very basic misconceptions about rape.

Having consensual sex is about power only in the most generic, useless sense. Which was the sense you, not me, started using.

Look, I understand that it's hard to talk about repressive issues without using the post-60s, child of the 90s liberal handbook, but try for a few minutes since there's no real stake in hashing it out on this forum.

I did not, in fact, invoke power, in the useless, generic sense, I invoked it in relation to celebrity and the media, which, while ubiquitous to the point of naturalization, is hardly (only) banal, let alone ineffectual.

By extension, "getting laid" for many is not about the physical, affective (romanticized and repressive) act, but about a different form of socially coded power which is largely scripted according to various factors of exclusion: age, "desirability", social conformity, restriction to the autistic, dysfunctional mode du jour of the "monogamous couple", and uh, let's see: race maybe (in the post imperial construction of ethnicities), and so on.

You want to fixate on the word "rape" like a bull in the ring, then flail away, other people were asking about the complexities of Cosby's pathology, not the molar, prophylactic, clinical and juridical definition of rape that you so eagerly (knee jerk) provided.

Take a survey of Americans between the seventies and now and I think it would be interesting to see the percentage of women who would qualify some of their instances of "consensual sex".

 

[blackcat]

Rape is not simply about having sex, rape is mostly about power. So I have no idea why you guys are talking about how Cosby could have had almost any woman he wanted thanks to his being famous.

roofies, aint about a power. he groomed people, and lulled them into a false sense of security. one could interpret this an the inverse of power. I am not saying it is, but if you are raping someone unconscious and they are not aware, this is placing a different slant on power, something to do with the impunity of criminalising this act when a victim realises they have had their autonomy compromised

 

[blackcat]

So you're saying that having one's way with various people due to celebrity is not about "power"? You think they're strictly separable phenomena? "Siloed" pathologies as the imbecilic corporatized speak of the moment would have it?

the comedian Mike Daisey had a riff on the groupie/camp follower phenomenon and throwing yourself at someone with fame/profile/money for sex.

used the insufferable Paris Hilton as the cypher.

went something like this... 'so what is Paris Hilton thinking about when someone she is having sex "I am Paris Hilton", like the male partner who is also in on the joke'

groupies are having sex with a simulcra, and those who 'indulge' groupies are also validating this simulcrum.


*oh, need to do a caveat on Mike Daisey, guy is a bit of a fraud himself too.

 

[blackcat]

I fail to see how "Cosby could get laid whenever he wanted so why would he rape" is some form of sophisticated subtle debate. It's not about using a "party line", it's about clearing up some very basic misconceptions about rape.

Having consensual sex is about power only in the most generic, useless sense. Which was the sense you, not me, started using.

if Crosby wanted sex and sex with you, you would be a mark. If he groomed you, seems he was willing to play a long game, but if he wanted you at a drunk party, it seems you had little choice, which would have been invoking his power. Was not just about sex, it was about sex with his choosing also. You did not know you were stuffed if you had become his mark.

 

[the delgados]

Uh, drugging people and forcing yourself on another person is a bad thing. There is no black and white. I Think everyone can agree on that.
Fuc k Cosby's lawyers who continually try to discredit the victims by digging up irrelevant dirt. There is no way that people from all over America with no connections would come together to make something like this up.

 

[frenchfry]

Cosby is not an isolated case. I had never personally heard of Ghomeshi before, but yet another celebrity caught up in a scandal. DSK was (is) another example, used his political status to cover up his brutalisation of women.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/jian-ghomeshi-charged-in-sexual-assault-investigation-1.2850661

 

[the delgados]

Cosby is not an isolated case. I had never personally heard of Ghomeshi before, but yet another celebrity caught up in a scandal. DSK was (is) another example, used his political status to cover up his brutalisation of women.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/jian-ghomeshi-charged-in-sexual-assault-investigation-1.2850661

Anyone connected with the arts and culture scene in Toronto knew about Ghomeshi. He had a habit of trying to pick up women wherever he went, including a good friend of mine. Everyone just considered him to be a really cheesy guy with terrible pick-up lines.
But until someone had the guts to come forward, no one knew he choked and punched women without their consent.
I can't even begin to comprehend the hubris of predators like Ghomeshi and Cosby. But I'm glad this issue is finally coming out into the open.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Cosby is certainly a guilty a$$hole, but guys, keep in mind: Women are no angels either. They know they have a deadliy weapon in accusing innocent rich (or not so rich) men for blackmailing. Why? They are in anger the men took a younger one, or they wanna squeeze more money out for a carefree life, the reasons are endless...
There is a huge difference between real rape (just have a look at the battered women in african war-zones like Congo), and the so-called in the ever declining and decadent west (famous innocents in Germany were Kachelmann, Türk, Dall, and then the thousands of unknown who suffer behind bars because of gold diggers being evil). It just doesn´t sound right that accusations drop by the minute now... Seems like a big bandwagon... I could be wrong though. Just a thought.

 

[the delgados]

Cosby is certainly a guilty a$$hole, but guys, keep in mind: Women are no angels either. They know they have a deadliy weapon in accusing innocent rich (or not so rich) men for blackmailing. Why? They are in anger the men took a younger one, or they wanna squeeze more money out for a carefree life, the reasons are endless...
There is a huge difference between real rape (just have a look at the battered women in african war-zones like Congo), and the so-called in the ever declining and decadent west (famous innocents in Germany were Kachelmann, Türk, Dall, and then the thousands of unknown who suffer behind bars because of gold diggers being evil). It just doesn´t sound right that accusations drop by the minute now... Seems like a big bandwagon... I could be wrong though. Just a thought.

Real rape and so-called rape? Really?
No doubt there are people who have made false accusations in the past. But that's what courts are for.
I have no reason to think you're anyone other than a respectable person; but truth be told, predators like Cosby and Ghomeshi love to hide behind the ideas you espouse.
It didn't take a lot of research for me to learn that many victims of sexual assault are fearful of making a complaint. The reasons for not coming forward are varied, but they're magnified a thousand times when the perpetrator is a celebrity. Victims don't think anyone will believe them.
Anyone who logs complaints against the likes of Ghomeshi or Cosby is potentially going to subject themselves to an extremely vigorous cross-examination that will not be comfortable. Who would do that just to gain notoriety or attention? What would total strangers from different parts of the country who all say the same thing have anything to gain outside of seeking justice?

 

[aphronesis]

Cosby is certainly a guilty a$$hole, but guys, keep in mind: Women are no angels either. They know they have a deadliy weapon in accusing innocent rich (or not so rich) men for blackmailing. Why? They are in anger the men took a younger one, or they wanna squeeze more money out for a carefree life, the reasons are endless...
There is a huge difference between real rape (just have a look at the battered women in african war-zones like Congo), and the so-called in the ever declining and decadent west (famous innocents in Germany were Kachelmann, Türk, Dall, and then the thousands of unknown who suffer behind bars because of gold diggers being evil). It just doesn´t sound right that accusations drop by the minute now... Seems like a big bandwagon... I could be wrong though. Just a thought.

Some global context is probably useful.

But, conspiracy theories about gold digging aside (which will get you, Foxxy, rhetorically strung up in most decadent neighborhoods and college campuses), here's a question: without minimizing the brutality of war, brutal, violent and generally lawless regimes and environments where rights extend only to those with means, where and what do you suppose the civilizational and cultural thresholds and determinants are between what you're mostly positing as physical violence and others (while including that to a far lesser degree) are categorizing as psychological abuse and violation?

 

[RetroActive]

Real rape and so-called rape? Really?
No doubt there are people who have made false accusations in the past. But that's what courts are for.
I have no reason to think you're anyone other than a respectable person; but truth be told, predators like Cosby and Ghomeshi love to hide behind the ideas you espouse.
It didn't take a lot of research for me to learn that many victims of sexual assault are fearful of making a complaint. The reasons for not coming forward are varied, but they're magnified a thousand times when the perpetrator is a celebrity. Victims don't think anyone will believe them.
Anyone who logs complaints against the likes of Ghomeshi or Cosby is potentially going to subject themselves to an extremely vigorous cross-examination that will not be comfortable. Who would do that just to gain notoriety or attention? What would total strangers from different parts of the country who all say the same thing have anything to gain outside of seeking justice?

That may have some bearing undoubtedly but I doubt the difference is that extreme. Making the local papers in such a case is bad enough. No one wants that tag.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

1st of all, to clarify once more: I am certain Cosby is a serial rapist... But what has bitter taste is that the bandwagon is going full blown now: Accusations against these and that men from all sides. Just doesn´t sound right. In this thread alone Hugh Grant, Tiger Woods, Bryant, and who else got thrown into the mud...
Tiger Woods for example is a serial double-dealer. So what? Fans, fanboys, fangirls made him a role model. He didn´t ask for. People are just jeaoulus of what he can do and others not (meeting and popping beautiful chicks). That´s his business, nobody elses. Same goes with Grant. If he found that hooker adorable, it´s his private choice. Jeaulous people who made him a role model have nothing to care about that.

Real rape and so-called rape? Really?
No doubt there are people who have made false accusations in the past.

Past? Really? That´s a new(er) disease. Our TV guy Türk lost everything because a mad woman accused him of rapping her by forcing her to do a blow job. And the judge send him to prison. Good for him he got free after the false accusations became known (still his career is over). Same goes with Kachelmann. A great attorney bailed him out (career over even though). Not so rich people are not so lucky. Behind bars, innocent, losing all...

But that's what courts are for.

LOL... and sad. Some conviction rates: Japan 99%, Germany 90%, USA 80+% (citizens there should thank god they have a jury system)...
Go to a courtroom, watch it live. You will be shocked how "truth" is made... It´s ugly, mildly said.

I have no reason to think you're anyone other than a respectable person; but truth be told, predators like Cosby and Ghomeshi love to hide behind the ideas you espouse.

I am not the only one. Just ask some 5 random attorneys...
The bright say "Better 10 guilty walking free, than one innocent going to prison". Just try to imagine if you are the one. You´d re-think everything...

It didn't take a lot of research for me to learn that many victims of sexual assault are fearful of making a complaint. The reasons for not coming forward are varied, but they're magnified a thousand times when the perpetrator is a celebrity.

Really? It´s the other way around. Easy victims, a lot of money at stake. Just ask the above mentioned, including Bryant, Roethlisberger, Dall, DSK, and many more that just don´t come to mind in this just second.

Some global context is probably useful.

But, conspiracy theories...

The killer argument to shut the opposition down... Tell that the innocent behind bars. Or do a re-search on innocent projects. AFIR, 90% of rape accusations were/are false!

... here's a question: without minimizing the brutality of war, brutal, violent and generally lawless regimes and environments where rights extend only to those with means, where and what do you suppose the civilizational and cultural thresholds and determinants are between what you're mostly positing as physical violence and others (while including that to a far lesser degree) are categorizing as psychological abuse and violation?

Don´t really get what you mean... Anyway, I saw shocking docus of real rapped women in Sierra Leone, Congo, Ruanda, India, and more. You didn´t even had to cross-examine anybody. You saw they were raped. There is a big difference between that and the "oh-he-almost-touched-me-but-I-said-no" "rape" (see the absurd above Blow-Job "rape")... I feel sorry for those wrongly accused... They have no chance. Zilch, once a woman targets them. Destroyed lives from angry women. Not only gold diggers. Also those who got "ex-changed" for younger ones. They are bitter in revenge. No holds barred...

 

[aphronesis]

Foxxy, this sounds like conspiracy theory

"It just doesn´t sound right that accusations drop by the minute now... Seems like a big bandwagon... I could be wrong though. Just a thought."

Disclaimers in the next post don't change that. As other posters have stressed to you, none of the women coming forward now are likely doing so for wealth or notoriety--mostly the opposite.

The rest of it is a simple question: where does "war" end and rape begin? Or, conversely, from the comfort of your relatively decadent and declining country, where does rape end and the political begin?

You seem to have a very comfortable black and white take on things where what you can see and assess is the measure of all things. As anyone with even a glimmer of empathy--let alone exposure to feminist thought will tell you: what you can see and conclude has nothing to do with the formation of their experience. Obviously that can get taken too far--to idiot extremes of imagined offenses, but that's mostly the exception.

I don't know much about rape in Germany other than accounts of the second world war and the Russians, but your remarks about men's destroyed lives in an American context are laughable and ignorant. To be polite about it. Even if they didn't have a job--let alone a well paid and nationally prominent career.

Well into the 1980s--if not more recently outside of urban areas--it was typically the womens' lives that were destroyed if there were anything less than appalling amounts of visual and forensic evidence.

What that means in civic terms is that a woman's own account in court was as inconsequential of the voice of the African women you cite. No, they weren't quite as likely to be subject to disfiguring violence (multiple times) but in many's experience that was mostly a leap of faith.

 

[hrotha]

1Anyway, I saw shocking docus of real rapped women in Sierra Leone, Congo, Ruanda, India, and more. You didn´t even had to cross-examine anybody. You saw they were raped. There is a big difference between that and the "oh-he-almost-touched-me-but-I-said-no" "rape" (see the absurd above Blow-Job "rape")

What are you trying to say? That only violent rape with penetration counts?

 

[RetroActive]

1st of all, to clarify once more: I am certain Cosby is a serial rapist... But what has bitter taste is that the bandwagon is going full blown now: Accusations against these and that men from all sides. Just doesn´t sound right. In this thread alone Hugh Grant, Tiger Woods, Bryant, and who else got thrown into the mud...
Tiger Woods for example is a serial double-dealer. So what? Fans, fanboys, fangirls made him a role model. He didn´t ask for. People are just jeaoulus of what he can do and others not (meeting and popping beautiful chicks). That´s his business, nobody elses. Same goes with Grant. If he found that hooker adorable, it´s his private choice. Jeaulous people who made him a role model have nothing to care about that.



Past? Really? That´s a new(er) disease. Our TV guy Türk lost everything because a mad woman accused him of rapping her by forcing her to do a blow job. And the judge send him to prison. Good for him he got free after the false accusations became known (still his career is over). Same goes with Kachelmann. A great attorney bailed him out (career over even though). Not so rich people are not so lucky. Behind bars, innocent, losing all...



LOL... and sad. Some conviction rates: Japan 99%, Germany 90%, USA 80+% (citizens there should thank god they have a jury system)...
Go to a courtroom, watch it live. You will be shocked how "truth" is made... It´s ugly, mildly said.




I am not the only one. Just ask some 5 random attorneys...
The bright say "Better 10 guilty walking free, than one innocent going to prison". Just try to imagine if you are the one. You´d re-think everything...



Really? It´s the other way around. Easy victims, a lot of money at stake. Just ask the above mentioned, including Bryant, Roethlisberger, Dall, DSK, and many more that just don´t come to mind in this just second.



The killer argument to shut the opposition down... Tell that the innocent behind bars. Or do a re-search on innocent projects. AFIR, 90% of rape accusations were/are false!




Don´t really get what you mean... Anyway, I saw shocking docus of real rapped women in Sierra Leone, Congo, Ruanda, India, and more. You didn´t even had to cross-examine anybody. You saw they were raped. There is a big difference between that and the "oh-he-almost-touched-me-but-I-said-no" "rape" (see the absurd above Blow-Job "rape")... I feel sorry for those wrongly accused... They have no chance. Zilch, once a woman targets them. Destroyed lives from angry women. Not only gold diggers. Also those who got "ex-changed" for younger ones. They are bitter in revenge. No holds barred...

I really know nothing about the cases you're citing, and I have no doubt that there are vindictive women that falsely accuse. I also know that this a problem, the rape of women specifically and rape generally,that goes unreported far more often than not.

Glad there's an edit feature.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Foxxy, this sounds like conspiracy theory

Again. Please search innocent projects, wrong rape accusations, and conviction rates... Don´t believe the hype/yellow press. Get really into...

Or do I get you right? Better 10 guilty + the lone innocent behind bars? If so, I wish you all the best that you are never the one. Just think about the consequences...

"It just doesn´t sound right that accusations drop by the minute now... Seems like a big bandwagon... I could be wrong though. Just a thought."

Again go trou that little thread alone, and see how many men got thrown into the dustbin. It´s amazing...

Disclaimers in the next post don't change that. As other posters have stressed to you, none of the women coming forward now are likely doing so for wealth or notoriety--mostly the opposite.

Again, I said Cosby seems the big a$$hole rapist... I was just talking generally of how all of a sudden this and that guy gets thrown under the bus since the Cosby story hit the news...

The rest of it is a simple question: where does "war" end and rape begin? Or, conversely, from the comfort of your relatively decadent and declining country, where does rape end and the political begin?

Really, I don´t know what you mean... For me and every person with common sense rape is a violent act to force sexual intercurse. A whole lot of evidence will be there then... OTOH, accusations out of the blue months, years, or even decades later just have a very sour taste. Basically that means every single men can be accused by an angry ex-lover. The thought is frightening... If that is justice and democracy... well, say hello to arbitrariness... Full blown decline of former western democracies.

but that's mostly the exception.

No, no, no... it´s the rule. Again, check the innocent orgs. 90% wrong rape accusations, destroyed lives en masse.

I don't know much about rape in Germany other than accounts of the second world war and the Russians

Havn´t talked about that. Solely talked of the now and here. Enough problems to save the little rest of fair process in decling so-called democracies...

Well into the 1980s--if nor more recently outside of urban areas--it was typically the women's lives that were destroyed if there were anything less than appalling amounts of visual and forensic evidence.

Again, I talk of the now and here, not something from 35 years ago...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I really know nothing about the cases you're citing, and I have no doubt that there are vindictive women that falsely accuse

Let me asure you: It´s shocking how easy the judical system destroys innocent in Germany... As I said (also in other cases), US citizens are wayy better off: 12 people decide, not one Cesar-like-judge doing the thumbs-down (in 90%) or up like in Germany...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

What are you trying to say? That only violent rape with penetration counts?

And what are you trying to say? Look at some womens behind is rape? Absurd!!!

Yes, by the nature of definition of r a p e some kind of forceful penetration should have happened. Not? Then... Wow... I think I just raped a street today, because i looked hard at it when walking across that very street. Oh my, your post is grotesque...

 

[RetroActive]

Let me asure you: It´s shocking how easy the judical system destroys innocent in Germany... As I said (also in other cases), US citizens are wayy better off: 12 people decide, not one Cesar-like-judge doing the thumbs-down (in 90%) or up like in Germany...

It's tough stuff wherever it occurs; hard to prove, hard to defend. Which is why so many people opt out.

 

[Netserk]

What are you trying to say? That only violent rape with penetration counts?

That some rape accusations are false, I'd guess.

http://www.justitsministeriet.dk/si...gspuljen/2011/2009/Voldtaegt-del-II-falsk.pdf

According to this paper 7.3% are false (In Denmark in the period between 2000 and 2002).

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

It's tough stuff wherever it occurs; hard to prove, hard to defend. Which is why so many people opt out.

When you get clobbered in a bar-fight, what you do? OFC, you call the police. Easy job for them, first hand hard evidence... or do you wait 2 weeks, and than say this guy hit me when I lost my 3 front teeth? That was rhetorical...

With all the annoynymous help orgs for battered woman, protection, police women officers doing the talk (at least that´s what I read happens), medical examination... I see no single reason for the woman not to report rape instantly when the rape happened...

OTOH, a gold digger/angry ex-woman/ "rape" that is reported weeks later... well, there is no other reason than that it´s a revenge/money game, when all evidence is gone, and only "your word against mine" is "evidence". Unreal, but real in our society. Fatal for the 90% innocent ...

 

[RetroActive]

When you get clobbered in a bar-fight, what you do? OFC, you call the police. Easy job for them, first hand hard evidence... or do you wait 2 weeks, and than say this guy hit me when I lost my 3 front teeth? That was rhetorical...

With all the annoynymous help orgs for battered woman, protection, police women officers doing the talk (at least that´s what I read happens), medical examination... I see no single reason for the woman not to report rape instantly when the rape happened...

OTOH, a gold digger/angry ex-woman/ "rape" that is reported weeks later... well, there is no other reason than that it´s a revenge/money game, when all evidence is gone, and only "your word against mine" is "evidence". Unreal, but real in our society. Fatal for the 90% innocent ...

Count yourself lucky that such abstractions are just that - abstract. The reality is messy.

 

[hrotha]

That some rape accusations are false, I'd guess.

http://www.justitsministeriet.dk/si...gspuljen/2011/2009/Voldtaegt-del-II-falsk.pdf

According to this paper 7.3% are false (In Denmark in the period between 2000 and 2002).

Obviously not, since he's claiming 90% of those accused are innocent, that only violent rape with penetration is actual rape, and that any woman who needs some time to build up the sheer courage necessary to report a rape is obviously a gold digger.

 

[aphronesis]

Obviously not, since he's claiming 90% of those accused are innocent, that only violent rape with penetration is actual rape, and that any woman who needs some time to build up the sheer courage necessary to report a rape is obviously a gold digger.

Of course. Never mind, you were right....