Bio passport beaten by EPO user in experiment

[The_Cheech]

You guys are talking about testing as though cyclists are being tested regularly year round. Not he case.

Anyone with a decent guru can dope to the gills during the off season (two weeks on two off,) reach a plateau (still glowing,) hold it until the first training camp (not glowing but enjoying the benefits of having juiced for months) and then be on cruise mode while you're getting tested regularly. Bio passport monitoring doesn't see a thing, T/E ratio is well within the limits, HCT looking good, et cetera.

All it takes is a Fuentes or a Ferrari or a Conte to make it happen.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

You guys are talking about testing as though cyclists are being tested regularly year round.

No, we're not. The BP and its inadequacies have been discussed at length.

Not he case.

We know. 3 times p.a. OOC.

Anyone with a decent guru can dope to the gills during the off season (two weeks on two off,) reach a plateau (still glowing,) hold it until the first training camp (not glowing but enjoying the benefits of having juiced for months) and then be on cruise mode while you're getting tested regularly. Bio passport monitoring doesn't see a thing, T/E ratio is well within the limits, HCT looking good, et cetera.

All it takes is a Fuentes or a Ferrari or a Conte to make it happen.

Nope. Joe Hack can do it for fun.

 

[IamIronMan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32983932

Interesting experiment where an amateur increases his VO2 max by 7% in 7 weeks using EPO and passes a blood passport test.

Do the amateur have biopassport?

Anyway of course you can use EPO and pass biopasport, but not an important amount.

Can you even fu*king read? Nevermind, it was written in English.

 

[Archibald]

Re:

Surely to be comparable to ABP:-

- the journo would have needed to be tested a few times a year rather than every week
- he'd have needed to be doping at baseline rather than having a clean baseline from which to highlight any differences
- he'd have needed to have a doping doc rather than be unsupervised
- he'd have needed to have an army of experts and lawyers to deal with anything slightly dodgy
- he'd have needed to drink a gallon of water before being tested
- he'd have needed one or two illnesses with TUEs to help explain anything slightly dodgy
- he'd have needed to disappear for "altitude" training when not in competition

This just wasn't the same thing at all

don't forget that you need to be within range of a shower at all times - maybe have one in your motorhome?



This one is gold:

was even more alarmed that this had been discovered by a rank amateur.

something tells me the "discovery" was made loooooong ago...

 

[mrhender]

Re:

5/63 = 7.9%
5/58 = 8.6%
25/350 = 7%

This confirmed my fears that the passport had put a stop to the worst excesses of the Lance Armstrong era but was not sensitive enough to pick up a careful programme of micro-dosing. Lundby was even more alarmed that this had been discovered by a rank amateur.

Have they not heard of Strada2 or Michael Ashenden?

Ashenden did a proper study on this ages ago proving what they found.

Lundby has a handfull if not more ABP studies under the belt.. As well as 50+ publishments abt doping et cetera..

I had a look at at his palmares, and it seems he is very fond of WADA, and that his approach is more about what can be done (how good it is) rather then examining if there are flaws and loopholes....

A guy in his position, with his history and working field should definetely be aware of the Ashenden study..

Maybe it is easier to get access and ressources if your aim is not to reveal bad news....?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yes come to think of it, he is not saying he did not know, and is providing a compliment "This confirmed my fears that the passport had put a stop to the worst excesses of the Lance Armstrong" even as he confesses that the ABP is "not perfect".

A shame we did not get any more info on the journalist's stats: hct, weight, etc. At a guess his Hct was increased 7% or more.

His training post-EPO commencement would have been useful too - was he training harder? We have no indication if he was or not, and that makes a big difference to adaptation with the increased Hgb mass.

 

[mrhender]

I would love it if Ashenden did an update on his study with the current ABP software...

If WADA was interested in this they should give him full access, and backing so that either:

1. The passport can be improved to an effect it can be labeled an efficient anti-doping system...

2. Put it to bed, and use ressources in a better way..

Maybe he could include a passage about altitude training and it's effects as well as an overhaul of the data WADA is sitting on.

I would also like to know what exactly the altitude APB testing are used to, if anything...

Also there were problems with the steroidal module, are they solved or is all the data so far useless...

#wishful thinking

 

[Dr.Guess]

Perhaps they are? (in contact with Ashenden et al) I would think that some people at Wada at least want to do a good job and thinks that doping is wrong (and have come to some conclusions on how to fight it in this massive corruption that is pro sports). One conclusion perhaps is that a bad job would be to reveal the progress to the enemies, don't you think?

 

[mrhender]

Re:

Perhaps they are? (in contact with Ashenden et al) I would think that some people at Wada at least want to do a good job and thinks that doping is wrong (and have come to some conclusions on how to fight it in this massive corruption that is pro sports). One conclusion perhaps is that a bad job would be to reveal the progress to the enemies, don't you think?

that would certainly be a pleasant surprise...

I do however not think it to be the case...

Also if there is one thing needed it is transparency and being on top of things from WADA..

I get the impression neither of those are the case...

But don't get me wrong.. I would love it if WADA was going full genius behind the scenes...

Problem is they don't control the testing regimes and mechanics fully...

And if they did they would prolly be even more vulnerable to internal wrongdoings...

Hmm -I'am in the sceptical corner this morning...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

WADA are funded by governments. The stick: no IOC participation unless a sport has signed up.
WADA (through the national feds, etc) catch some people: government funding is justified.
Joe Blow pointing out that the WADA system is simple to beat: ruh roh raggy. They need to do everything in their power to disprove, denigrate and deny this.

They might be getting other people involved to shore up the system and improve it, but it would be far easier to provide the appearance of doing a bang up job, with the odd pro athlete caught here and there, vs having to actually catch them, fairly and consistently. One of these things is enough to continue funding requests, the other is work. Lots of hard work.

 

[The_Cheech]

So, in essence, We know WADA's protocol is obsolete. Their only hope is targeted testing, and that requires multiple tests and see what the cyclists may be doing on the bio passport for them to zero in on a particular cyclist/week. Vast amount of resources is spent on a single person who will, most likely, have a plan B and turn the glowing sample into "water," thereby turning the entire process into a monumental waste of time.

Awesome!

 

[el_angliru]

Re: Re:

Lundby has a handfull if not more ABP studies under the belt.. As well as 50+ publishments abt doping et cetera..

I had a look at at his palmares, and it seems he is very fond of WADA, and that his approach is more about what can be done (how good it is) rather then examining if there are flaws and loopholes....

A guy in his position, with his history and working field should definetely be aware of the Ashenden study..

Maybe it is easier to get access and ressources if your aim is not to reveal bad news....?

Quite the contrary, actually. He conducted a study in 2008 which showed that WADA-accredited labs were not able to (successfully) test for EPO (I'm talking of this study, although the text is not available). WADA were not happy with this study and accused Lundby and his team for being 'unethical' because they didn't tell the labs about the purpose of their study. And WADA never admitted that their tests might be flawed (or 'easy to beat'). A couple of Danish articles mentions this controversy link1, link2.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

Lundby has a handfull if not more ABP studies under the belt.. As well as 50+ publishments abt doping et cetera..

I had a look at at his palmares, and it seems he is very fond of WADA, and that his approach is more about what can be done (how good it is) rather then examining if there are flaws and loopholes....

A guy in his position, with his history and working field should definetely be aware of the Ashenden study..

Maybe it is easier to get access and ressources if your aim is not to reveal bad news....?

Quite the contrary, actually. He conducted a study in 2008 which showed that WADA-accredited labs were not able to (successfully) test for EPO (I'm talking of this study, although the text is not available). WADA were not happy with this study and accused Lundby and his team for being 'unethical' because they didn't tell the labs about the purpose of their study. And WADA never admitted that their tests might be flawed (or 'easy to beat'). A couple of Danish articles mentions this controversy link1, link2.

I know the study... They almost closed the lab and got a lot of heat...

I actually posted one of your links on twitter some days ago...

Since then (7 ears ago) there is at least a handful studies from his hand in another spirit....

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Thank you, el_angliru, that was a great read - with study comments out the whazoo.

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32983932

Interesting experiment where an amateur increases his VO2 max by 7% in 7 weeks using EPO and passes a blood passport test.

Really cool article and a good read, but not really news. We've known for years that micro-dosing beats the passport.

It's not news to us in the Clinic. But to many neutral fans it's probably news. And it goes a long way in exposing clean cycling crusaders like Vaughters and Walsh for the frauds that they are. Articles like these - if only we'd see more of the same quality - could serve to counterbalance the "now you can win clean" brigade which is damaging cycling because it makes people look the other way whilst the arms race is full on.

The fact that the biopassport can be beaten does not automatically point to the conclusion that a clean rider cannot win. A clean rider could not win a major race when doping was full on, but I still think it may be possible for a clean rider to win on occasion. Though it does give me pause about riders I formerly thought were clean like Degenkolb and Kittel, or even Dan Martin.

I hold no illusions about being able to win stage races clean.

And because the biopassport can be beaten, as we've known for years, does not mean guys aren't trying to run clean teams or give their riders an environment where they can win clean. There simply is no logic which says "bio-passport can be beaten, therefore all team managers are assisting their riders in doping". Simply fails any logic test.

Now it surely is true that some team managers who claim to be running clean teams are not. And some are surely aiding and abetting the doping of their riders, or at least covering for it. But it is not necessarily true that all team managers are doping enablers.

I think Microdosing is the baseline for pros. It is what they are adding to the mix that is the diference. Also have they found a way to take more EPO(non detectable types) and add something to it so it doesn't flag ABP.

No i dont beleive clean riders can win. Too many out there fighting(with PEDs) for wins and points to stay on a WT team or get a WT contract.

I have not seen anything particularly inspirational about Martin that makes me think he is clean. He has no probs with all the dopers he hangs out with on Garmin!

Wonder what new drug is out there now that Kittel had a bad reaction too...............PED can work both ways, good or bad responses

 

[B_Ugli]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32983932

Interesting experiment where an amateur increases his VO2 max by 7% in 7 weeks using EPO and passes a blood passport test.

Really cool article and a good read, but not really news. We've known for years that micro-dosing beats the passport.

It's not news to us in the Clinic. But to many neutral fans it's probably news. And it goes a long way in exposing clean cycling crusaders like Vaughters and Walsh for the frauds that they are. Articles like these - if only we'd see more of the same quality - could serve to counterbalance the "now you can win clean" brigade which is damaging cycling because it makes people look the other way whilst the arms race is full on.

The fact that the biopassport can be beaten does not automatically point to the conclusion that a clean rider cannot win. A clean rider could not win a major race when doping was full on, but I still think it may be possible for a clean rider to win on occasion. Though it does give me pause about riders I formerly thought were clean like Degenkolb and Kittel, or even Dan Martin.

I hold no illusions about being able to win stage races clean.

And because the biopassport can be beaten, as we've known for years, does not mean guys aren't trying to run clean teams or give their riders an environment where they can win clean. There simply is no logic which says "bio-passport can be beaten, therefore all team managers are assisting their riders in doping". Simply fails any logic test.

Now it surely is true that some team managers who claim to be running clean teams are not. And some are surely aiding and abetting the doping of their riders, or at least covering for it. But it is not necessarily true that all team managers are doping enablers.

I think Microdosing is the baseline for pros. It is what they are adding to the mix that is the diference. Also have they found a way to take more EPO(non detectable types) and add something to it so it doesn't flag ABP.

No i dont beleive clean riders can win. Too many out there fighting(with PEDs) for wins and points to stay on a WT team or get a WT contract.

I have not seen anything particularly inspirational about Martin that makes me think he is clean. He has no probs with all the dopers he hangs out with on Garmin!

Wonder what new drug is out there now that Kittel had a bad reaction too...............PED can work both ways, good or bad responses

I agree with you. I would add that this notion of target testing is a fallacy. They get caught when they go full genius and it raises eyebrows or someone within on the peleton on a reduced program grasses on them (which incidentally I think will happen with Mikel Landa).

So Richie Porte can ride up Col de La Madone faster than Armstrong at his peak and is only following wheels at the Giro? How does that happen?

The ABP is analysed after a riders “normal” values are ascertained. What if the riders values are “abnormal” to start with and they have been doping since Junior/U23?

 

[doperhopper]

So Richie Porte can ride up Col de La Madone faster than Armstrong at his peak and is only following wheels at the Giro? How does that happen?

--------

well, they simply screwed something up, but as Brailsfraud already announced (when "praising" Oleg), Contador and TS were only the best in May (read: wait for July, well kick your ass) - so they probably know why Richie responded so badly and are sure Vroom is hyper-responder

 

[Benotti69]

If Kreuzigers values were not enough to get him a ban then might as well scrap blood tests.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Re:

One of these things is enough to continue funding requests, the other is work. Lots of hard work.

The latter would require 2 orders of magnitude more funding IMO. It ain't gunna happen.

The worlds top sports stars earn more per year than the combined annual budgets of all the world's anti-doping agencies.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

If Kreuzigers values were not enough to get him a ban then might as well scrap blood tests.

Are his values posted somewhere? Can't find them. Thanks.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

If Kreuzigers values were not enough to get him a ban then might as well scrap blood tests.

Are his values posted somewhere? Can't find them. Thanks.

Kreuzigers HcT at Il Giro went from 43.2 to 48.1 in 10 days DURING the race.


I think JV knows what happened, machine calibration error...........

 

[The_Cheech]

Re: Re:

Kreuzigers HcT at Il Giro went from 43.2 to 48.1 in 10 days DURING the race.

He's probably doing things himself, or a friend who knows very little about keeping parameters in check.

A team doctor would not allow that HcT variation.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Kreuzigers HcT at Il Giro went from 43.2 to 48.1 in 10 days DURING the race.

He's probably doing things himself, or a friend who knows very little about keeping parameters in check.

A team doctor would not allow that HcT variation.

I think Kreuziger was not doing well that Giro. I doubt he was flying solo. Team doctors do what they are told.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

If Kreuzigers values were not enough to get him a ban then might as well scrap blood tests.

Are his values posted somewhere? Can't find them. Thanks.

Kreuzigers HcT at Il Giro went from 43.2 to 48.1 in 10 days DURING the race.


I think JV knows what happened, machine calibration error...........

That would be pretty obvious...

Pretty surprising a guy like that who was IIRC performing really well would enter the Giro at 43. Sounds a bit odd.

 

[mrhender]

IAAF not happy with media coverage of doping like the BBC Panorama..

Says it "undermines" investigations..

http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/iaaf-media-coverage-of-doping-can-undermine-our-investigations/

The International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) has warned that media coverage of doping, such as the BBC Panorama ‘Catch me if you can’ investigation, can risk undermining its own doping investigations. ‘There have been allegations against the Salazar group for at least two years now and the IAAF has remained consistent in stating that it will never deny or confirm that it was undertaking an investigation into allegation of doping by athletes or supporting personnel’, an IAAF spokesperson told the Sports Integrity Initiative in an e-mailed statement. ‘This is for obvious reasons. By confirming that an investigation is going on before it is complete is risking the efficiency of said investigation by tipping off those being investigated. The IAAF shares the USADA [US Anti-Doping Agency] point of view that attempts to sensationalise and publicise what are confidential and process-driven inquiries can end up ruining a lot of careful, painstaking work to uncover doping practices in sport’.

‘Catch me if you can’ (pictured), which aired on 3 June, claimed that Alberto Salazar, head of the Nike Oregon Project, used banned steroids and unethical practices on athletes including Galen Rupp, Adam and Kara Goucher. A WADA statement issued yesterday indicated that it was the responsibility of the IAAF and USADA to investigate the allegations, which prompted the Sports Integrity Initiative to ask the IAAF and USADA if they would be investigating. USADA has yet to respond.

The IAAF has previously warned investigative journalists that by publishing information about athletes and coaches suspected of being involved in doping, they risk compromising IAAF investigations. Earlier this year, the IAAF sent a letter to Hajo Seppelt, asking the German journalist not to reveal confidential athlete information it suspected him to hold at two anti-doping conferences. The World Anti-Doping Agency’s (WADA) view on the role of the media in anti-doping can be viewed here.