Bjarne Riis, saved by silence?

[Le Baroudeur]

OK, at this point I'm going to ask you to point out explicitly where Jaksche and Hamilton contradicted themselves. You've mentioned the "Alberto León was a CSC associate" thing, but I was following Hamilton's testimony, and I've read reports about it, and I'm pretty sure he didn't say León worked for CSC and that it's a mistake on the part of the journalist.

Jaksche in Jul/Aug 2007 interviews vs his subsequent court statements and related interviews regarding the team.

The Post relating to Alberto Leon I made was purely to highlight that Del's statement of the telegraph article being key was in fact not the case, and that he might want to rethink his trust in and choice of sources and stick to defending Sky.

In the post you quote I refer to statement contrary to Hamilton's account rather than contradictions by Hamilton himself. However, you may recall Hamilton, stating that everything in the book was corroborated, yet the only inclusions regarding Riis are of an entirely uncorroborated nature, and further, despite meticulous doping records was unable to provide specific dates for alleged meetings. It is also clear that several associates of Hamilton and many of his training partners in Girona were also clients of Fuentes, begging the question why ask Riis. Add the conflicting stories from other riders who claim to have sourced Fuentes independently, Hamilton's history of lies, Deep depression on leaving the team after refusal to appoint him sole leader, and I'm left unconvinced. He has always displayed strongly self centred traits similar to Lance, and I doubt his attitude has changed drastically.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Jaksche in Jul/Aug 2007 interviews vs his subsequent court statements and related interviews regarding the team.

The Post relating to Alberto Leon I made was purely to highlight that Del's statement of the telegraph article being key was in fact not the case, and that he might want to rethink his trust in and choice of sources and stick to defending Sky.

In the post you quote I refer to statement contrary to Hamilton's account rather than contradictions by Hamilton himself. However, you may recall Hamilton, stating that everything in the book was corroborated, yet the only inclusions regarding Riis are of an entirely uncorroborated nature, and further, despite meticulous doping records was unable to provide specific dates for alleged meetings. It is also clear that several associates of Hamilton and many of his training partners in Girona were also clients of Fuentes, begging the question why ask Riis. Add the conflicting stories from other riders who claim to have sourced Fuentes independently, Hamilton's history of lies, Deep depression on leaving the team after refusal to appoint him sole leader, and I'm left unconvinced. He has always displayed strongly self centred traits similar to Lance, and I doubt his attitude has changed drastically.

Just like Bjarne.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

What does this mean? Do you really think that Frank is "cleared" because the sport ignored that he paid 10,000 to a Gynecologist with bags of blood in his fridge for "Interval training"?

You are free to "Clear" him but most rational people to not share that opinion.

7000 Euros for a treatment Hamilton stated costs 50000, $?

I didn't clear him, he was cleared by a court, denial of that fact is not rationality, nor does it change the fact your original post was FUD.

Personally I'm happy he left the team.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Just like Bjarne.

Not really, the devil is in the detail, admitting your daemons and flaws vs providing excuses for your actions as an extension of your self obsessed traits, and trying to justify actions as other than completely selfish.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

7000 Euros for a treatment Hamilton stated costs 50000, $?

I didn't clear him, he was cleared by a court, denial of that fact is not rationality, nor does it change the fact your original post was FUD.

Personally I'm happy he left the team.

Hmm, so now you are believing what Hamilton said - probably a good idea as there is actual evidence of some of his payments.

Check out the "by hand" payments - one might say the Devil is in the detail:

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Hmm, so now you are believing what Hamilton said - probably a good idea as there is actual evidence of some of his payments.

Check out the "by hand" payments - one might say the Devil is in the detail:

Nice of his wife to pick up the tab.

I don't disbelieve Hamilton, I'm grateful for his testimony even if coerced, I do regard him as having zero credibility however, and as such, I would have been disturbed if anybody was prosecuted based solely on Tyler's testimony. Anything that Tyler says is valid only if corroborated imho.

The devil is indeed in the detail.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Nice of his wife to pick up the tab.

I don't disbelieve Hamilton, I'm grateful for his testimony even if coerced, I do regard him as having zero credibility however, and as such, I would have been disturbed if anybody was prosecuted based solely on Tyler's testimony. Anything that Tyler says is valid only if corroborated imho.

The devil is indeed in the detail.

Of course you think he has zero credibility - we know you do, you want to believe 2 upstanding gentlemen who stand for clean cycling in Riis & Fuentes.

But so far you have been unable to show where Hamilton has zero credibility.
Rather than repeating your opinion just provide the detail.

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Of course you think he has zero credibility - we know you do, you want to believe 2 upstanding gentlemen who stand for clean cycling in Riis & Fuentes.

But so far you have been unable to show where Hamilton has zero credibility.
Rather than repeating your opinion just provide the detail.

Balderdash.

As for demonstrating Tyler's lack of credibility, Hamilton has achieved that himself throughout his career both as an athlete through doping, and as a person through habitual lies. That's fact not opinion. 'Opinion' is your standpoint that he has no reason to lie anymore. The onus is on Hamilton and your shoulders not mine.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Balderdash.

As for demonstrating Tyler's lack of credibility, Hamilton has achieved that himself throughout his career both as an athlete through doping, and as a person through habitual lies. That's fact not opinion. 'Opinion' is your standpoint that he has no reason to lie anymore. The onus is on Hamilton and your shoulders not mine.

Lets try this:
As for demonstrating Bjarnes lack of credibility, Riis has achieved that himself throughout his career both as an athlete through doping, and as a person through habitual lies. That's fact not opinion. 'Opinion' is your standpoint that he has no reason to lie anymore. The onus is on Riis and your shoulders not mine.


And what, Bjarne has always been truthful and honest?

How are they different? The same argument could be made for both.
But unlike Riis, Hamilton has provided testimony under oath (for Puerto & USADA and most importantly the FEDs) and he has little to gain from doing so. Riis was just a footnote in his book.
Riis however is under considerable pressure (yet again) and could lose his team.

 

[MarkvW]

Nice of his wife to pick up the tab.

I don't disbelieve Hamilton, I'm grateful for his testimony even if coerced, I do regard him as having zero credibility however, and as such, I would have been disturbed if anybody was prosecuted based solely on Tyler's testimony. Anything that Tyler says is valid only if corroborated imho.

The devil is indeed in the detail.

Tyler Hamilton is a liar. He'll have to spend the rest of his life life living that down, like the other Postie frauds.

But it's not just the details that make Tyler's (or Floyd's, for that matter) confession credible--it is the overwhelming mass of corroborating evidence that supports his testimony. Not only that--I've yet to see ANYTHING (except Lance's now-repudiated lies) contradicting ANYTHING that Tyler said about his Postie days.

There's no point in arguing over Tyler's credibility, unless you want to cruelly troll Maserati with abstract concepts.

 

[Samson777]

Tyler Hamilton is a liar. He'll have to spend the rest of his life life living that down, like the other Postie frauds.

But it's not just the details that make Tyler's (or Floyd's, for that matter) confession credible--it is the overwhelming mass of corroborating evidence that supports his testimony. Not only that--I've yet to see ANYTHING (except Lance's now-repudiated lies) contradicting ANYTHING that Tyler said about his Postie days.

There's no point in arguing over Tyler's credibility, unless you want to cruelly troll Maserati with abstract concepts.

Maybe depending on Tylers Religion? I mean; have there ever been a human who have not been lying?

Otherwise I pretty much agree. Arguing that Riis did not know anything about doping in his team, is very stupid. It is almost as stupid, as if you had suggested; that Desgrange was sad about that Pelliser, used drugs to win the tour. It's nonsense

 

[Race Radio]

7000 Euros for a treatment Hamilton stated costs 50000, $?

I didn't clear him, he was cleared by a court, denial of that fact is not rationality, nor does it change the fact your original post was FUD.

Personally I'm happy he left the team.

You do understand what a deposit is right?

It wasn't a court, it was the local commission. A court would have laughed him out of the room.

I am glad you agree my original post was correct. Riis top riders used Fuentes. Is Riis is a super smart guy in control of everything or some dummy that does not know what his riders, in whom he has invested millions, are doing?

 

[Cimber]

Fuentes is a liar, Hamilton is a liar, Riis is a liar.

I feel confident that Riis has assisted/advised his riders on doping matters. However, that's not really the interesting part imo (its old news really). The interesting part if whether they can make the accusations stick to the teflon-man. So far he has dodged everything and the accusations have had no real consequences. This whole Hamilton-thing has upped the pressure on him though. Fuentes statement now relieves this pressure to some extent (disregarding whether we believe him or not). So Fuentes statement could help him dodge the consequences once more. Certainly, Fuentes' statement has been a big help for Riis (at least for now)

Maybe the Rasmussen-case could provide additional pressure on Riis that he wont be able to dodge. Time will tell.

Operación Galgo was empirical proof that you're wrong.

Not really. 1) I said sane persons (maybe I should have added smart people - and Riis is certainly that), 2) even though it was after the Puerto-case its still 3 years back - and a lot has changed since.

At this point in 2013 I really doubt that any sane/smart people will still use Fuentes for doping (you will probably be able to find some desperate Spanish athletes). It would be extremely risky and dumb to use Fuentes now, and while I consider Riis shady, I by no means consider him dumb. He would have found other ways by now (or is still searching for new ways, cos atm his team seem to lack some juice). No way Riis would be stupid enough to (still) use Fuentes now.

 

[Cimber]

Operación Galgo was empirical proof that you're wrong.

Not really. 1) I said sane persons (maybe I shoudl have added smart people - and Riis is certainly that), 2) eventhough it was after the Puerto-case its still 3 years back - and alot have changes since.

At this point in 2013 I really doubt that any sane/smart people will still use Fuentes for doping. It would be extremely risky and dumb, and while I consider Riis shady, I by no means consider him dumb. He would have found other ways by now (or is still searching for new ways, cos atm his team seem to lack some juice)

 

[xrayvision]

You have yet again repeated this "poor victim" point.
Can you show exactly where Hamilton has portrayed himself as some poor victim since his confession? Because he states quite the opposite in his book.


The highlighted would be noble except that you want to take the words of Fuentes and Riis as "proof" of something.

Do you believe that Riis runs (and has always run) a clean team, simple yes or no is fine.

What a silly question!!
My point is exactly I dont take any side, of the simple reason I have no proof of either, so it should answer your question, which was obvious from the start.

But I doubt you get the point, so heres a plain answer, and the answer is a big NO, you must be naive if you think Riis Cycling have ever been clean, the question was if he personally had met with Fuentes or had any personally relationship with him, and since there is no proof of any of the 2 I wont state it as facts, as so many others do. Simple as that. You cant use it as proof that Tyler is speaking the truth although you do a pretty good job at it claiming that I "taken the words as proof", pretty stupid if you ask me.

 

[xrayvision]

Nothing in this sport has shown that the old ways have been discarded.

Results show exactly what? That epo use is less than what it was a few years ago? So that they still dope is not acceptable.

Why believe Riis?

Hamilton has regained his credibilty. If you doubt Hamilton's cred, then doubt others who have doped and lied. Like Riis who is still in the sport.

I recall Riis not wanting to give back his Mailliot Juane, showing he was truly sorry for doping and cheating.

you talk about who to believe, its not at all my point, I know what went on, and most likely still do, im talking about proof, which there are none of so far, what I believe is an entirely other matter, I only say dont use your personal opinions as facts, or hearsay as facts, its still word against word, maybe none of them are even the truth.

 

[Netserk]

The fact that no legal action was taken by Bjarne Riis created much room for speculation and the subsequent silence from Riis, not answering any questions for months despite unrelinquishing media attention, doesn't seem like the behaviour expected if it was all lies that Tyler brought forth. A lawsuit and a vocal Bjarne would have helped matters much in that regard.

So you think the Lance approach with suing left and right is more credible?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What a silly question!!
My point is exactly I dont take any side, of the simple reason I have no proof of either, so it should answer your question, which was obvious from the start.

But I doubt you get the point, so heres a plain answer, and the answer is a big NO, you must be naive if you think Riis Cycling have ever been clean, the question was if he personally had met with Fuentes or had any personally relationship with him, and since there is no proof of any of the 2 I wont state it as facts, as so many others do. Simple as that. You cant use it as proof that Tyler is speaking the truth although you do a pretty good job at it claiming that I "taken the words as proof", pretty stupid if you ask me.

Very emotive post.

See, you wrote the below earlier- yet you yourself (without proof) believe that Riis Cycling has never been clean.

You have to take into account that the Clinic been demanding Riis´s exit from cycling for years and seen him as the evil team owner of all cycling history with organized doping on hes team, something that have never been proven, so that Fuentes now clears Riis and says their big savior Tyler is a liar, and showing the Clinic been wrong is a hard fact to swallow, and you can be damn sure most will now come up with tons of theories to why Fuentes should do exatly that, course no way in hell Riis could be telling the truth from the start.
I guess its just part of the human mentality.

So, is Bjarne plain stupid and all these people are doping behind his back (many with Fuentes) or is he part of the problem? And under either circumstance why should Riis be part of the sport?

 

[Cimber]

So, is Bjarne plain stupid and all these people are doping behind his back (many with Fuentes) or is he part of the problem? And under either circumstance why should Riis be part of the sport?

The question is how to get him out. He is like teflon. And just when Hamilton's statements put him under some pressure Fuentes relieves that pressure somewhat.

As said, maybe Rasmussen has said something that will bring Riis down, but otherwise I think he will walk away from it again.

 

[Clausfarre]

So you think the Lance approach with suing left and right is more credible?

If someone made allegations about you that could potentially cost you your career and your only response was 'no comment' it would, as I said, create room for all sorts of speculation about organising team doping etc.

The last time he was this evasive was in the interviews he gave before his admission where he had little or nothing to say except 'I never doped' (despite being presented with great circumstancial evidence). The lawsuit approach Lance did was a career long scare tactic. Bjarne is not that type but if someone publicly lied about him it would be realistic to expect some sort of harsh reaction. Oh well.

I actually like Bjarne and wish him well. But I am realistic regarding the possibilities of CSC having enhanced their performances like most teams did.

 

[Samson777]

Matt Rendel tell what he think about Fuentes vs Tyler
http://sporten.tv2.dk/2013-04-05-ekspert-fuentes’-frikendelse-af-riis-stinker-langt-væk

 

[Caruut]

So you think the Lance approach with suing left and right is more credible?

Tarring everyone with the Lance brush is silly, and not an appropriate way to debate this. If someone is confronted with an accusation and says "no comment", I am less inclined to believe them than if they say "this is untrue and I will be suing". Doesn't mean I believe them if they do or that I refuse to if they don't. Sometimes the innocent say "no comment" until they've had a good lnog talk with their lawyer about exactly what to say and sometimes the guilty fire off lawsuits like Lance. The point is that in a given situation, someone who refuses to defend themselves is less credible.

 

[xrayvision]

Very emotive post.

See, you wrote the below earlier- yet you yourself (without proof) believe that Riis Cycling has never been clean.



So, is Bjarne plain stupid and all these people are doping behind his back (many with Fuentes) or is he part of the problem? And under either circumstance why should Riis be part of the sport?

My personally believes are not proof, so I dont state it as that, like so many other posters here do. I dont know if the point gets through to you now, but I hope so.

One thing is for sure, BR is certainly not stupid, being that slippery for so many years is not easy, and he obviously knows what he´s doing, so no I find it very hard to believe he was not aware or was a participant or/and a motivator.
I don´t think Riis is more of the problem than the next guy from his era or of the present people in the sport, actually there´s not much that suggest the team is doping up at the moment, or since 2010 result wise, except from the Vuelta 2012 perhaps, but then we should include all the rest as well.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

My personally believes are not proof, so I dont state it as that, like so many other posters here do. I dont know if the point gets through to you now, but I hope so.

Who claims they have proof? You made that up.

Your opinion is as worthy as anyone else's - however I see no reason for Hamilton to say BR was the one to put him on touch with Fuentes.

One thing is for sure, BR is certainly not stupid, being that slippery for so many years is not easy, and he obviously knows what he´s doing, so no I find it very hard to believe he was not aware or was a participant or/and a motivator.
I don´t think Riis is more of the problem than the next guy from his era or of the present people in the sport, actually there´s not much that suggest the team is doping up at the moment, or since 2010 result wise, except from the Vuelta 2012 perhaps, but then we should include all the rest as well.

So, he knows there is doping going on in his team, and yet you think he would not be able to get the contact details of the Doctor to some of his teams biggest names? That would make Bjarne stupid, which I agree he isn't.

And to the highlighted, Bjarne being a doper is no more different than other dopers, but being a team manager who is involved in doping certainly makes him different from most dopers.

 

[Samson777]

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/riis-lejren-vi-accepterer-kreuzigers-forklaring

Riis and his team accepts Kreuzigerz relationship with Ferrari.

What a relief! That can not make you anything but happy