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BMC Soigneur caught with 195 does of EPO

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Oct 25, 2009
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sniper said:
Der Spiegel about whether Cadel is a worthy winner of this years Tour:



"Is Cadel a worthy winner? Yes, since he was quickest. And yes, just like the previous winners of the past decade, he wasn't capable of taking a clear anti-doping stance in his closing pressconference."

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/0,1518,776308,00.html
The translation of the author's snide reference to Cadel also being a worthy winner because he like others has not used use his win to crusade against doping is a little too literal. In context it should have read "... wasn't prepared to take a clear anti-doping stance...". The article as a whole makes no inference that Cadel was or has doped.

In fact in the second part of the articlehe asks himself whether Evans is a clean winner:

"Ist Cadel Evans ein sauberer Sieger?

Bis zum Beweis des Gegenteils: Ja. Es liegt nichts gegen ihn vor, keine positive Probe, keine verweigerte oder ausgelassene Kontrolle. Als sein mittlerweile verstorbener Trainer Aldo Sassi noch lebte, wurden ab und an sogar Leistungskurven des Australiers veröffentlicht, was man als Bemühen um Transparenz werten kann
."

His answer is basically that he is (until proof to the contrary) due to his clean record including occasional publication of believable data under Sassi.

Curiuosly he goes on to suggest Andy Schleck is in theory cleaner than Cadel due to his 3 on the UCI suspicion index v. Cadel's 4 but urges extreme caution against reliance on this index due to lack of clarity as to how it works. He does not give any other reason as to why Andy would be clean.

Overall it is a strange somewhat dark article with vague hints of light at the end of the tunnel - but in Germany it may take another Jan Ullrich to fix things!
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Nearly said:
May be not but some with credibility happen to agree with this if the following extract fromhttp://www.cyclingnews.com/news/2011-tour-de-france-the-cleanest-in-recent-years is anything to go by:-

"Frédéric Grappe, doctor in biomechanics and long-time trainer of the FDJ team, was confident that this year's Tour has been one of the cleanest yet. "We have seen real cycling, the cycling we should always see," he told Le Journal du Dimanche.

"Cadel Evans' performances are the best way to measure this. He's been stable for the past eight years. He doesn't do any better than in previous years. It's the Schlecks and Contador who are slower. This Tour has been one of the slowest on the climbs since 2004," commented Grappe, who is usually known for his scepticism with regard to doping."


Not sure why this statement is not receiving much attention in the clinic.
I wouldn't say he has been stable. He was 1:30 slower up Alp d'huez compared to 2008 and he climbed much faster in 2002 Giro
 
Oct 16, 2009
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Race Radio said:
I wouldn't say he has been stable. He was 1:30 slower up Alp d'huez compared to 2008 and he climbed much faster in 2002 Giro
According to Wikipedia Sastre's time in 2008 was 39' 31". Evans was 2' 15" behind at the finish, so he climbed it in 41' 46". Sanchez climbed it in 41' 21" this year, Evans was 43" behind him at the finish, so he climbed in 42' 4".
 
Aug 13, 2009
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goggalor said:
According to Wikipedia Sastre's time in 2008 was 39' 31". Evans was 2' 15" behind at the finish, so he climbed it in 41' 46". Sanchez climbed it in 41' 21" this year, Evans was 43" behind him at the finish, so he climbed in 42' 4".
Evens was 42:28 this year. Thought Sastre was 39:08

What was Cadel's VAM when he was climbing with these guys?
 
Oct 16, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Evens was 42:28 this year. Thought Sastre was 39:08

What was Cadel's VAM when he was climbing with these guys?
On that stage it was probably something like 500 m/h.

Interestingly a guy like Vandevelde climbed with Evans in 2008. This year he was two and a half minutes back. I got Sanchez's time from wikipedia as well, by the way. Don't know how correct it is.

Edit: Just did a quick check. Got the same time on Sanchez as wikipedia (from the left turn at 13.8 km to go). I timed it using the timer on VLC player, but unless Eurosport had a commercial break in the middle of Alpe d'Huez it should be pretty accurate. :p
 
Oct 25, 2009
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Race Radio said:
What was Cadel's VAM when he was climbing with these guys?
Whatever it was his recovery wasn't brilliant (finishing 15 minutes down on Hamilton on GC). Also I note this was in 2002 which precedes the 8 year period of "stability" that Grappe was referring to (not that I would read too much into that).

I am not sure I have seen too much variation in his 3 Alpe d'Huez times given all the variables particularly when in 2006 and 2008 he needed to chase riders up the road whereas this year he was just marking the Schlecks (with comparative "ease"). Even the 2007 PdB "blow up" is somewhat analogous.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Nearly said:
Whatever it was his recovery wasn't brilliant (finishing 15 minutes down on Hamilton on GC). Also I note this was in 2002 which precedes the 8 year period of "stability" that Grappe was referring to (not that I would read too much into that).

I am not sure I have seen too much variation in his 3 Alpe d'Huez times given all the variables particularly when in 2006 and 2008 he needed to chase riders up the road whereas this year he was just marking the Schlecks (with comparative "ease"). Even the 2007 PdB "blow up" is somewhat analogous.
Good points. It is certainly possible Cadel is currently riding clean.....but I never understand why he surrounds himself with dirty teams, managers, staff and teammates. He does have a reputation for being standoffish so perhaps the fact that he works with a group with such a checkered past is not as important.
 
Race Radio said:
Evens was 42:28 this year. Thought Sastre was 39:08

What was Cadel's VAM when he was climbing with these guys?
Hadn't seen that pic before..
As someone above mentioned - if he was on the gear, they got his dosage wrong before the stage where he lost 17 minutes..:eek:
I might have said this before, I heard an interesting story back in 2002.
An acquaintance of mine (a friend of my best mate) is a current cycling commentator, raced in Belgium for a while, and is an old friend of Cadel. He heard first hand that Mapei couldn't believe Evans' performance at the Giro that year 'because he's not on anything'.

Of course, I'm not so biased/naive as an Aussie to totally dismiss the possibility of juice. I'd love to think his whole career has been ridden clean, but who honestly knows?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Nick777 said:
Hadn't seen that pic before..
As someone above mentioned - if he was on the gear, they got his dosage wrong before the stage where he lost 17 minutes..:eek:
I might have said this before, I heard an interesting story back in 2002.
An acquaintance of mine (a friend of my best mate) is a current cycling commentator, raced in Belgium for a while, and is an old friend of Cadel. He heard first hand that Mapei couldn't believe Evans' performance at the Giro that year 'because he's not on anything'.

Of course, I'm not so biased/naive as an Aussie to totally dismiss the possibility of juice. I'd love to think his whole career has been ridden clean, but who honestly knows?
I find that quite hard to believe. In that era, you wouldn't even get a pro-contract if you had the reputation of being clean.
One shouldn't forget either that it was ferrari who discovered Evans (see Team Sky Fans' post in the other thread).

Doping is and has been the norm in the past two decades, we all agree right? So in lack of any compelling evidence in either direction, it's quite plausible to assume that Cadel hasn't been riding clean.
(NB: the "norm" not meaning that there weren't any exceptions of course)
 
Nick777 said:
As someone above mentioned - if he was on the gear, they got his dosage wrong before the stage where he lost 17 minutes..:eek:
Very interesting post, I hope what you heard was the truth. As for the bit I quoted, well, plenty of dopers bonked, including at that Giro - particularly at that Giro.
sniper said:
I find that quite hard to believe. In that era, you wouldn't even get a pro-contract if you had the reputation of being clean.
I don't think that's true. Jaksche was clean when he got a contract with Polti, and Stanga couldn't believe he wasn't on anything when he did well at 21 in Paris-Nice. In those years, in Spain, many pro teams started focusing on u23 riders from their feeder teams, ignoring those from other teams, because that way they had a better chance of knowing exactly how clean or dirty they were, and how much they could improve with a proper program. Getting results as a u23 while being clean usually equals great potential.

And even if you're clean, that doesn't mean you'll have any reputation one way or another.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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sniper said:
In that era, you wouldn't even get a pro-contract if you had the reputation of being clean.
Gawd sniper, I know you're fond of the broad generalisation but that is ridiculous and wrong.


sniper said:
One shouldn't forget either that it was ferrari who discovered Evans (see Team Sky Fans' post in the other thread).
That's a bit of a stretch, even for you. If the story is correct their contact was pretty inconsequential. Anyway there are more strings to Ferrari's bow that just doping.
 
Jul 15, 2010
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sniper said:
I find that quite hard to believe. In that era, you wouldn't even get a pro-contract if you had the reputation of being clean.
One shouldn't forget either that it was ferrari who discovered Evans (see Team Sky Fans' post in the other thread).

Doping is and has been the norm in the past two decades, we all agree right? So in lack of any compelling evidence in either direction, it's quite plausible to assume that Cadel hasn't been riding clean.
(NB: the "norm" not meaning that there weren't any exceptions of course)
This is quote from Ferarri's website

"In the summer of 2000, I got a phone call from Tony Rominger: "There is this MTB vice-world champion, Cadel Evans, who would like to pass onto road racing. Since he's earning already quite well from his MTB activity, I'd like to know whether he has the skills to consider dedicating to road cycling full time and risk such a jump."

It is always difficult and chancy to answer similar questions, but I eventually agreed on testing him on the road in St. Moritz.
After a 1-hour warm-up, we met on the Albula Pass at 1800m of altitude: Evans rode a stretch of 100m of total difference in height several times, at increasing intensities, checking the times, the heart rates and the lactic acid concentrations.
His VAM at 4 mM was 1780 m/h, an excellent value considering the oxygen deficit due to altitude.
I had him repeat the same test after 4 additional hours of riding, climbing the Albula and Julier Pass, with the purpose of checking his performance over distance: the result was a VAM = 1820 m/h, even better than the first test, probably because of the slight weight loss from the ride.
I therefore called Tony, who was Cadel's manager, and told him that in my opinion they could make an attempt and jump to road racing."


Not sure this classes as "discovering" when the bloke has already won a junior time trial bronze and a mountain bike world cup, but anyway....
 
sniper said:
I find that quite hard to believe. In that era, you wouldn't even get a pro-contract if you had the reputation of being clean.
One shouldn't forget either that it was ferrari who discovered Evans (see Team Sky Fans' post in the other thread).

Doping is and has been the norm in the past two decades, we all agree right? So in lack of any compelling evidence in either direction, it's quite plausible to assume that Cadel hasn't been riding clean.
(NB: the "norm" not meaning that there weren't any exceptions of course)
The story is 100% true as was told to me..
Cadel was already well known in cycling circles, and was hardly discovered by Ferrari. He'd been a mountain bike star for years at that stage. In 1998, Lygett had already predicted that Evans could be the first Australian to win the tour de france. http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2011/07/25/248161_sport-news.html

None of this means much, because I can't tell you he is definitely clean.
I am putting it out there just for everyone's interest.

Anyhow...it wouldn't matter what team Evans went to back then. Links to doping was everywhere.
 
Jul 15, 2010
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would be interesting to know when Rominger actually started managing him. Looks like it was quite early in the piece.

Would also be interesting to know not only the standard process in relation to development of manager/rider relationships, but who the big players are in this area. What percentage of riders have managers?

I am assuming that there would be a number of ex riders with this gig.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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hrotha said:
Yeah, I'd say the strong Rominger connection is way more damning than the tenuous Ferrari connection in this case.
Well there's no doubt Rominger doped and was in cahoots with Ferrari when he raced. Plus of course a number of his clients subsequently have been caught out doping. I am not sure that any of those cases have involved Ferrari however. The question then arises of the role of the manager in these things as opposed to the team or the coach/trainer. Have any of these other Rominger clients caught for doping implicated him in the process? How many are in his stable of clients?

Didn't Mapei "clean house" in 1995 and boot Rominger out?
 
Feb 28, 2010
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hrotha said:
Yeah, I'd say the strong Rominger connection is way more damning than the tenuous Ferrari connection in this case.
Always had my doubts about Rominger. There was a Sunday Times `Day in the Life of' article years ago featuring the track sprinter Lynford Christie, in the article Christie mentioned meeting his good mate Tony Rominger. Now what might those two have had in common?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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fatsprintking said:
This is quote from Ferarri's website

"In the summer of 2000, I got a phone call from Tony Rominger: "There is this MTB vice-world champion, Cadel Evans, who would like to pass onto road racing. He's clean, so please, Michele, could you see to it that he stays on the right track, keep him away from the PEDs. etc.? Since he's earning already quite well from his MTB activity, I'd like to know whether he has the skills to consider dedicating to road cycling full time and risk such a jump. But as I said, I'm calling you because he's clean, he doesn't do PEDs, and I want him to stay that way"
Fixed that for you.:rolleyes:
Sure Rominger and Ferrari came to the joint conclusion that Cadel could become the first clean winner of the Tour since Lemond.


Evans wurde übrigens niemals bei Dopingkontrollen positiv getestet, geriet aber zwischenzeitlich in Verdacht. Grund waren seine Kontakte zum umstrittenen italienischen Arzt Michele Ferrari, dem die Presse den Beinamen "Dottore Epo" gab. Ferrari habe nur Trainingspläne für ihn aufgestellt, entgegnete Evans.http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15261941,00.html
Translation:
"Cadel was never tested positive, but he came under suspicion due to contacts with Dr. Ferrari. However, he denied allegations and assured that Ferrari only provided him with training schedules".
:rolleyes:

So let's sum this up, just to be sure Cadel is clean:
- Rominger sets him up with Ferrari,
- Ferrari supplies him with training schedules
- rides for Mapei, T-Mobile
- wins the Tour beating known dopers Frandy and AC
- never takes clear anti-doping stance in interviews...

The sum of these issues indeed suggests that Cadel is probably the first clean winner of the Tour since Lemond...
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Evans wurde übrigens niemals bei Dopingkontrollen positiv getestet, geriet aber zwischenzeitlich in Verdacht. Grund waren seine Kontakte zum umstrittenen italienischen Arzt Michele Ferrari, dem die Presse den Beinamen "Dottore Epo" gab. Ferrari habe nur Trainingspläne für ihn aufgestellt, entgegnete Evans.http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15261941,00.html
Translation:
"Cadel was never tested positive, but he came under suspicion due to contacts with Dr. Ferrari. However, he denied allegations and assured that Ferrari only provided him with training schedules".
:rolleyes:
 
Jul 19, 2009
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sniper said:
I find that quite hard to believe. In that era, you wouldn't even get a pro-contract if you had the reputation of being clean.
One shouldn't forget either that it was ferrari who discovered Evans (see Team Sky Fans' post in the other thread).

Doping is and has been the norm in the past two decades, we all agree right? So in lack of any compelling evidence in either direction, it's quite plausible to assume that Cadel hasn't been riding clean.
(NB: the "norm" not meaning that there weren't any exceptions of course)
However, to the people that actually know Cadel personally it seems quite implausible to them that he could possibly have turned his entire person around to suddenly become a doper in his late 20s.

It was Dave Martin at the AIS who first tested Evans in the mid 90s and recognized his potential well before Ferrari had ever heard of him.....

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/cycling/why-evans-was-always-going-to-win-20110730-1i59s.html

I asked Dave Martin circa 2007 whether he thought Cadel could be doping. He told me that for as long as he has known Cadel (ie: since he was about 15), he has been an uber nerdy/moralistic/conservative person who for example, never even drank alcohol, not because it was bad for training, but because it was illegal to drink under the age of 18. He was the sort of person who wouldn't even park illegally because it was wrong.

So if he became a doper then it means he completely changed who he was on the inside. Its possible he was corrupted, but in addition to what I have written above there are numerous reasons that give me confidence he hasn't...

1. Cited article discusses his physiology which is superior in every way to LA. We know with 100% certainty that these are natural undoped test scores. We know his VO2max is very close to values cited for Lemond. (I know this because I have witnessed it personally).
2. He has been one of the most consistent top 5 riders of the past 6-7yrs, and he wins the tour 2-3yrs after the biological passport system has been introduced (and has been doing some good as per graph in other thread)
3. Nobody has even accused him of doping let alone being tested positive..... compare that to LA whose entire career is littered with high profile doping accusations, positive A samples, cover ups, bribery and finally culminating in a grand jury investigation no less. Compare that to AC whose name popped up in the Puerto affair yet who could have proven his innocence with a simple DNA test but refused, and who currently awaits a decision on testing positive to clenbuterol.

Association with doping in pro-cycling is like the Kevin Bacon game, everyone has some connection, but IMO there are degrees of connection and those for Cadel pale in comparison to other champions of the past decade.
 
Apr 15, 2010
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guy lives sheltered life, then meets the right/wrong people (delete as appropriate) and becomes a doper.

sounds implausible but i think i've heard that story before.
 
Oct 25, 2009
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Nick777 said:
Hadn't seen that pic before..
As someone above mentioned - if he was on the gear, they got his dosage wrong before the stage where he lost 17 minutes..:eek:
QUOTE]

He might look have looked comfortable at the front on this climb in the pink but he lost 17'11" on this very same stage!

Sniper - given the consistency of his times and efforts over the years you seem to be suggesting that clever Cadel had the foresight only to dope sufficiently to be at that precise sub-charged but 'also ran' level that he would need to be at in 10 years time (continuing to dope undetected at the same level) when finally all the chargers had all been found out and/or the tests been perfected so that he could kick all their now slower butts and loudly proclaim to be 'first clean winner of the Tour in our living memory'.

The ultimate sleeper cell in fact - the only slight flaw I can see with this suggestion is Ferrari and Rominger being happy to wait that long for their big collects:rolleyes:
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Krebs cycle said:
However, to the people that actually know Cadel personally it seems quite implausible to them that he could possibly have turned his entire person around to suddenly become a doper in his late 20s.

It was Dave Martin at the AIS who first tested Evans in the mid 90s and recognized his potential well before Ferrari had ever heard of him.....

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/cycling/why-evans-was-always-going-to-win-20110730-1i59s.html

I asked Dave Martin circa 2007 whether he thought Cadel could be doping. He told me that for as long as he has known Cadel (ie: since he was about 15), he has been an uber nerdy/moralistic/conservative person who for example, never even drank alcohol, not because it was bad for training, but because it was illegal to drink under the age of 18. He was the sort of person who wouldn't even park illegally because it was wrong.

So if he became a doper then it means he completely changed who he was on the inside. Its possible he was corrupted, but in addition to what I have written above there are numerous reasons that give me confidence he hasn't...

1. Cited article discusses his physiology which is superior in every way to LA. We know with 100% certainty that these are natural undoped test scores. We know his VO2max is very close to values cited for Lemond. (I know this because I have witnessed it personally).
2. He has been one of the most consistent top 5 riders of the past 6-7yrs, and he wins the tour 2-3yrs after the biological passport system has been introduced (and has been doing some good as per graph in other thread)
3. Nobody has even accused him of doping let alone being tested positive..... compare that to LA whose entire career is littered with high profile doping accusations, positive A samples, cover ups, bribery and finally culminating in a grand jury investigation no less. Compare that to AC whose name popped up in the Puerto affair yet who could have proven his innocence with a simple DNA test but refused, and who currently awaits a decision on testing positive to clenbuterol.

Association with doping in pro-cycling is like the Kevin Bacon game, everyone has some connection, but IMO there are degrees of connection and those for Cadel pale in comparison to other champions of the past decade.
strong post, hard to argue with most of it. Interesting link also.

Just two points:
He was the sort of person who wouldn't even park illegally because it was wrong.
This tells me little, because in cycling, doping is the norm, it's not seen as cheating.
Floyd wasn't exactly a bad guy either before he started doping.

Nobody has even accused him of doping
For what it's worth, the German press often points at his connection with Ferrari.
 

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