Bonus Seconds in Grand Tours

[Netserk]

Should there be bonus seconds in Grand Tours? If so, how do you prefer for them to be awarded?

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These are the current rules:

Giro: 10-6-4 at the finish-line, and 3-2-1 at the second intermediate sprint.
Tour: 10-6-4 at the finish-line, and 8-5-2 at the bonus sprint at the top of the last climb in mountain stages with a downhill finish.
Vuelta: 10-6-4 at the finish-line, and 3-2-1 at either the intermediate sprint or at the top of a climb during the stage.

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Over the past two decades, there have been a wide mix of rules for bonus seconds. Editions without any at all, only in the first week, only in flat stages, twice as big as now, and with different distributions for the first three places.

 

[Netserk]

If a victory won by bonus seconds is less valuable than one won without the help of them, does that not imply that bonus seconds are fake and wrong?

 

[ManicJack]

Should there be bonus seconds in Grand Tours?

NO

 

[gregrowlerson]

Definitely deserves its own topic. Good thread idea.

 

[Red Rick]

My only criticism is that the gap between 2 and 3 being smaller than 3 and 4 makes no real sense. I wouldn't mind if it was 10-5-3-2-1 or something like that either.

I really dislike the 8-5-2 on top of somewhat random climbs.

 

[ice&fire]

I'm all in for incentives that favour attacking riders, be it bonus seconds or moto pacing

Spoiler

I kid, I kid

 

[Red Rick]

If a victory won by bonus seconds is less valuable than one won without the help of them, does that not imply that bonus seconds are fake and wrong?

No. Everyone implicitly accepts the rules when they participate in the race, and they should take bonus seconds into account when deciding on their racing strategy and tactics before and during the race.

Having said that, I dislike when sprinting for bonus seconds becomes a factor that's too big in the larger strategy simply because it might actually reduce the quality of the race.

 

[Netserk]

My only criticism is that the gap between 2 and 3 being smaller than 3 and 4 makes no real sense. I wouldn't mind if it was 10-5-3-2-1 or something like that either.

I really dislike the 8-5-2 on top of somewhat random climbs.

The Vuelta has had 12-8-4 and 9-6-3 previously, iirc. I too don't really get how it was settled on 20-12-8 (which became 10-6-4 later) as the norm for so long, as it is indeed weird.

I think a time bonus for the stage winner only would distort the racing the least, but I get that some prefer the distortion they bring.

 

[Red Rick]

The Vuelta has had 12-8-4 and 9-6-3 previously, iirc. I too don't really get how it was settled on 20-12-8 (which became 10-6-4 later) as the norm for so long, as it is indeed weird.

I think a time bonus for the stage winner only would distort the racing the least, but I get that some prefer the distortion they bring.

I think no time bonus distorts racing the least on mountain stages in cases where it would actually matter the most. When a team decides they have the best guy and they're gonna murder everyone, they're gonna go for the stage win and they don't really care to bring back bonus seconds or not.

When a team has to attack, but they're kinda not entirely sure, or it's 50/50 and they may run into a counter, they very rarely bring the break back.

I think without bonus seconds the break would not have won on Puy de Dome.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It should be 3-60-1 at the finish line so Van Aert could win a GT.

6-3-1, 10-5-2, 12-6-2 or 8-4-2 would be better systems than the current one. But you could of course also choose to only award seconds to the winner.

 

[ice&fire]

It should be 3-60-1 at the finish line so Van Aert could win a GT.

6-3-1, 10-5-2, 12-6-2 or 8-4-2 would be better systems than the current one. But you could of course also choose to only award seconds to the winner.

Derek Gee says hello

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Derek Gee says hello

He would probably only finish second.

 

[Valv.Piti]

If a victory won by bonus seconds is less valuable than one won without the help of them, does that not imply that bonus seconds are fake and wrong?

I literally only think a victory by bonus seconds is less valuable to a few posters on obscure forums like CN. Most people don't even know and wouldn't give a crap about it.

I like it as is.

 

[Izzyeviel]

Stage winner: 1 minute
Runner up: 25 seconds
3rd to 5th 12, 6, 4

& have a 10 seconds boni somewhere in the stage - but mix up where you put it - sometimes during the first half, sometimes half way, sometimes towards the end.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Better riders will always tend to find the way. With or without the bonus seconds. Without bonus seconds likely a few more breakaways making it. And a little lest effort invested by GC cyclists at the finish line.

In practice i know that people complained a whole lot. When Rogla was stomping. And then at this years Giro people complained a whole lot for not doing that.

So regardless if there are bonus seconds or not people will complain. Bonus seconds are often used as an excuse. Look my favorite was beaten. But only due to bonus seconds. This in the end isn't necessarily true. Without bonus seconds the outcome would likely be the same.

For me bonus seconds represent a bit of needles wasting of energy on a GT race. And as such general public should like it. Compared to GC riders not wasting effort on that.

 

[RedheadDane]

I like it when there are bonus seconds.
I like it when there aren't bonus seconds.
I like variation between how many bonus seconds are handed out.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

It should be 3-60-1 at the finish line so Van Aert could win a GT.

Like that he could also maybe win a big classic.

 

[Kaptain Kool]

The more bonus seconds, the better. Both in terms of value and points within a stage. Don't really care how they're distributed.

 

[valentius borealis]

I'm unsure about whether bonus seconds should be applied (especially when a positive drug test can potentially change the order like in the 2013 Tour of Turkey).

 

[Nick2413]

As it stands bonus seconds just reward climbing. I’d like a system that rewards things other than just W/kg, but that would require a lot of weird experimentation. I think a real leveling factor would be a cobbled TT on a road bike or something similar. But the current bonus point system is mostly a red herring imo, it doesn’t change who wins for the most part.

 

[Potomac]

If a victory won by bonus seconds is less valuable than one won without the help of them, does that not imply that bonus seconds are fake and wrong?

My opinion a victory won by bonus seconds is BETTER than not.

 

[RedheadDane]

Does anyone have a list of GTs won on bonus seconds?

 

[fmk_RoI]

If a victory won by bonus seconds is less valuable than one won without the help of them, does that not imply that bonus seconds are fake and wrong?

The problem here is no one remembers how many bonus seconds went to make up any victory. In others words, no, a victory won by bonus seconds is no less valuable, you still won, it's still your name in the history books.

Look, it's a bit like American politics: you can win the popular vote, but if you don't play to how the system actually works - the electoral college - that's your fault, no one else's.

 

[houtdffan]

6-4-2 for intermediate sprints
20-12-6 at stage finishes (20-12-8 or 10-6-4 make no sense as the difference between second and 3rd is less than the difference between 1st and second and 3rd and 4th)

 

[wheresmybrakes]

Bonus seconds on mountain stages for sprinters only.
Bonus seconds on flat stages for GC riders only.
Bonus seconds on hilly stages, every man for themselves.