Boonen's bid for the records

[Parrulo]

And Boonen just now came back from two years without a monument win. Things can suddenly change. And if Cancellara manages to get a smarter, stronger team, and has some tactical cards to play, then he'll be back to being that almost impossible guy to beat. That's a big "if" though.

i know that, i was just sarcastically applying some posters logic. as you can see from my previous post

 

[The Hitch]

you and many other posters pretty much buried boonen

Until you can provide proof for this accusation, your post means nothing.

Ill save you some time, i never burried boonen I always said he was better than the rest.

He just isnt better than Cancellara, therefore your whole post about how he has now won another 2 monuments dosn't mean much to me since I already knew he was better than the rest, but they don't prove he is better than Cancellara.

I do however think it is worth reading into how you treat Cancellara's failure in the cobbled monuments as an athletic failure.

funny enough despite being so much better then every1 else cancellara will now be on his second year in a row without a monument win. for some1 that is way beyond boonen who himself is beyond every1 else in the peloton that seems rather weird.

The poor guy crashed and broke his collarbone and you are acting as if Boonen has outclassed him yet again.

Shows how scared the Boonen brigade really is of an on form Cancellara.

i was actually using your own logic.

What logic is that?

 

[rghysens]

But the thing is, Cancellara has never been able to drop Boonen on the pavé of Nord Pas de Calais. Or as we say it in Dutch: on the kasseien.

In 2006 Cancellara dropped Boonen (and 6 others) on the pavés with an attack in Grusson.

 

[thehog]

And Boonen just now came back from two years without a monument win. Things can suddenly change. And if Cancellara manages to get a smarter, stronger team, and has some tactical cards to play, then he'll be back to being that almost impossible guy to beat. That's a big "if" though.

My suspicion is the Fabian might be a little bit thick. If he is still with RSL next year then it will confirm my suspicions.

Interesting to note that Cancellara never thought he was going to be a Classics rider. He thought he was a man for Prologues and TTs. It wasn’t until Riis convinced him he could win one that he started to take them seriously. Back in 06/07 people were laughing at the fact that he could even finish Top 10 in a Classic.

 

[Nick C.]

My suspicion is the Fabian might be a little bit thick. If he is still with RSL next year then it will confirm my suspicions.

Interesting to note that Cancellara never thought he was going to be a Classics rider. He thought he was a man for Prologues and TTs. It wasn’t until Riis convinced him he could win one that he started to take them seriously. Back in 06/07 people were laughing at the fact that he could even finish Top 10 in a Classic.

I seem to remmber he and Flecha in the final group for at least one Paris Roubaix with Fassa Bortolo.

 

[EvansIsTheBest]

De Vlaeminck is the greatest cobble rider of all time. There's only one true cobble race (even truer in his days). He won it 4 times, could've won at least 6, punctured only 3 times, retired only once (while he could've been 2nd) and the 13 times he finished, he was never worse than 7th.

De Vlaeminck résumé at P-R might be more impressive at the moment but the FACT is that Boonen can equal him Sunday in terms of wins and that is all that matters in one day races. I believe that by your own logic that would make them equal, unless of course you believe Boonen incapable of winning P-R at least once before the end of his career.
By the way I don't think the numbers of retirements/punctures (much of which comes down to luck or rather bad luck) at P-R is more relevant than the numbers of win at Flanders to determine the greatness of a rider on the cobbles.

And he had all the big TT engine from the GT's against him, while Boonen only has to deal with Cancellara (and yet, he only beat him once).

You can't blame a rider for the opposition he faces plus I highly doubt that "the big TT engines" of Wiggins, Evans or Contador would seriously bother him at P-R. De Vlaeminck and Boonen dominated the best cobbled riders of their generation, whether those riders could compete elsewhere like Merckx is irrelevant to the debate of who is the best cobbled clasics rider.

 

[Parrulo]

Until you can provide proof for this accusation, your post means nothing.

Ill save you some time, i never burried boonen I always said he was better than the rest.

He just isnt better than Cancellara, therefore your whole post about how he has now won another 2 monuments dosn't mean much to me since I already knew he was better than the rest, but they don't prove he is better than Cancellara.

I do however think it is worth reading into how you treat Cancellara's failure in the cobbled monuments as an athletic failure.



The poor guy crashed and broke his collarbone and you are acting as if Boonen has outclassed him yet again.

Shows how scared the Boonen brigade really is of an on form Cancellara.


What logic is that?

i think that the fact that you still fail to see the sarcasm in my post even tho i already pointed towards it more then once says a lot.

 

[Echoes]

De Vlaeminck résumé at P-R might be more impressive at the moment but the FACT is that Boonen can equal him Sunday in terms of wins and that is all that matters in one day races. I believe that by your own logic that would make them equal, unless of course you believe Boonen incapable of winning P-R at least once before the end of his career.

Fact is, so far he hasn't equalled him. And he can only equal the record, not yet break it. I don't believe he can break the record (unless José does a real great job )

By the way I don't think the numbers of retirements/punctures (much of which comes down to luck or rather bad luck) at P-R [...]

That's precisely a myth ! De Vlaeminck himself said multiple times that "punctures and crashes are not bad luck but a matter of clear-mindedness" and that when he punctured, that was when he was out of form.

Other all-time greats (Madiot, Fignon, Merckx, ...) tend to agree. I remember Fignon commentating for RTBF the 2005 edition in which Cancellara (racing for Fassa) punctured and had a "heavy" pedalling afterwards. Fignon said it corroborated De Vlaeminck's theory.

Even on asphalt races, I don't believe in bad luck. Boeckmans' crash in Sanremo was a matter of clear-mindedness, definitely.

[...]
is more relevant than the numbers of win at Flanders to determine the greatness of a rider on the cobbles.

Tour of Flanders is half as cobbled as Paris-Roubaix.

It's an easy hilly race. Only the Koppenberg is critical. And according to Mick Wuyts, the all-time greatest Koppenberg specialist is ... Roger De Vlaeminck.

You can't blame a rider for the opposition he faces plus I highly doubt that "the big TT engines" of Wiggins, Evans or Contador would seriously bother him at P-R. De Vlaeminck and Boonen dominated the best cobbled riders of their generation, whether those riders could compete elsewhere like Merckx is irrelevant to the debate of who is the best cobbled clasics rider.

Tony Martin can win Paris-Roubaix if he could've been bothered with it. So could Indurain, and other heavyweight TTists.

Paris-Roubaix is 50km on cobbles + 200km on asphalt. It's not only for cobble specialist. You should also have stamina.

Cancellara is not a cobble specialist, he's the best TTist of his generation. When he finished 5th in 2004, he already had a reputation as a huge TT specialist but nobody knew what he could've done on cobbles. He won 2 Paris-Roubaix not because he was the best on the cobbles but because he was the best on the asphalt.

That was already the case for Merckx. In 1973, he could not gain time on Godefroot/Rosiers on the cobbles but gained huge time on the in-between sections.

Paris-Roubaix is not just a race for specialists !

 

[Caruut]

Yeah right, it's just because Tony can't be bothered that he's not winning some of the most prestigious races in the world.

 

[mr. tibbs]

Of course Boonen was in top form. Tommeke himself said he was better in spring 2010 than last Sunday. Just saying.

Agreed, thanks for the support. I think the results from 2010 Flanders speak for themselves:

1. Fabian Cancellara (Sui), Team Saxo Bank, at 6:25:56
2. Tom Boonen (Bel), Quick Step, at 1:15
3. Philippe Gilbert (Bel), Omega Pharma-Lotto, at 2:11
4. Björn Leukemans (Bel), Vacansoleil Pro Cycling Team, at 2:15
5. Peloton at 2:35

As I mentioned before, Boonen continued to gain time on the chasers even after Cancellara dropped him. He was pretty damn strong.

Sometimes we fans like to create narratives for the races and riders based on who won/didn't win and external factors that aren't indicative of actual performance. I'd suggest that citing personal problems from 2009 as demonstrating poor form in 2010 is an example of this, especially when the performance on the road (and stones ) suggests that the rider's form was strong.

Boonen was in great form for Flanders in 2010. His performance suggests he was the second strongest of the day. Cancellara just happened to be THE strongest.

 

[Magnus]

He just isnt better than Cancellara

He's better at sprinting not better at tt'ing.

Boonen doesn't need to drop anyone to win. Fabian does.

Overall it seems Boonen is the better classics rider.

 

[thehog]

Yeah right, it's just because Tony can't be bothered that he's not winning some of the most prestigious races in the world.

I did laugh when I read this... so true!

 

[Wallace]

He's better at sprinting not better at tt'ing.

Boonen doesn't need to drop anyone to win. Fabian does.

Overall it seems Boonen is the better classics rider.

Fun discussion, but it kinda needs to be said that the Boonen vs Cancellara vs Gilbert "who is the best classics rider of his generation" thing is really all about opinions. Boonen's won six monuments: at this point he has more than any active rider. Cancellara has "only" won four, but he's won three different monuments--does that make him a more all-round rider than Boonen? Gilbert has three, but there's a good chance that before he's done he'll win Flanders and maybe even Roubaix. An on-form Gilbert can contest any of the monuments, something that can't be said about Boonen or Cancellara who will never contest LBL or Lombardia. It's all about style, preference, and opinion, isn't it? I think there's a really good chance that Boonen will end up as the greatest cobbled classics specialist of the three, and if he wins two more, of maybe of all time. He's a specialist. But there'll always be those who prefer Cancellara...

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Tony Martin can win Paris-Roubaix if he could've been bothered with it.

You seriously think so?

 

[Magnus]

Fun discussion, but it kinda needs to be said that the Boonen vs Cancellara vs Gilbert "who is the best classics rider of his generation" thing is really all about opinions. Boonen's won six monuments: at this point he has more than any active rider. Cancellara has "only" won four, but he's won three different monuments--does that make him a more all-round rider than Boonen? Gilbert has three, but there's a good chance that before he's done he'll win Flanders and maybe even Roubaix. An on-form Gilbert can contest any of the monuments, something that can't be said about Boonen or Cancellara who will never contest LBL or Lombardia. It's all about style, preference, and opinion, isn't it? I think there's a really good chance that Boonen will end up as the greatest cobbled classics specialist of the three, and if he wins two more, of maybe of all time. He's a specialist. But there'll always be those who prefer Cancellara...

Fun indeed.
The Medrisio Cancellara could win Lombardia I suppose. I have doubts about Gilbert and Roubaix.
I said that Boonen seems to be better because he overall seems to have the best winning possibilities in the Belgium and French classics and MSR. "overall" meaning that Boonen can win on mediocre (well not mediocre but non-absolute peak time of his life) shape whereas Fabian needs to be not only the strongest, but the strongest by a mile and then some, and then he still doesn't always win.

 

[The Hitch]

Fun discussion, but it kinda needs to be said that the Boonen vs Cancellara vs Gilbert "who is the best classics rider of his generation" thing is really all about opinions. Boonen's won six monuments: at this point he has more than any active rider. Cancellara has "only" won four, but he's won three different monuments--does that make him a more all-round rider than Boonen? Gilbert has three, but there's a good chance that before he's done he'll win Flanders and maybe even Roubaix. An on-form Gilbert can contest any of the monuments, something that can't be said about Boonen or Cancellara who will never contest LBL or Lombardia. It's all about style, preference, and opinion, isn't it? I think there's a really good chance that Boonen will end up as the greatest cobbled classics specialist of the three, and if he wins two more, of maybe of all time. He's a specialist. But there'll always be those who prefer Cancellara...

Cancellara is more likely to win lombardia than Gilbert is to win roubaix.

 

[FignonLeGrand]

cancellara and boonen are equals with canc having the edge for the ronde and boonen for roubaix simple as that if you really think cancellara is much superior to boonen then you are insane.

+1

they are both great and have had their ups and downs against each other.

 

[Parrulo]

Fun discussion, but it kinda needs to be said that the Boonen vs Cancellara vs Gilbert "who is the best classics rider of his generation" thing is really all about opinions. Boonen's won six monuments: at this point he has more than any active rider. Cancellara has "only" won four, but he's won three different monuments--does that make him a more all-round rider than Boonen? Gilbert has three, but there's a good chance that before he's done he'll win Flanders and maybe even Roubaix. An on-form Gilbert can contest any of the monuments, something that can't be said about Boonen or Cancellara who will never contest LBL or Lombardia. It's all about style, preference, and opinion, isn't it? I think there's a really good chance that Boonen will end up as the greatest cobbled classics specialist of the three, and if he wins two more, of maybe of all time. He's a specialist. But there'll always be those who prefer Cancellara...

not having a MSR win is indeed a massive gap on boonen's palmares, looking in retrospective he should have taken his chance in 06 when he still had his sprint edge, he has been close to win it before but i don't think he will ever be able to do it unfortunately.

then again he has a worlds win which is something canc doesn't has atm and will have a hard time getting as the courses won't be very suitable to him in the next 3 years being this years course the one that suits him the best of the 3,, so they even each other out.It is a shame tho, i wanted to see either boonen or cancellara doing the rainbow jersey the honor of being properly ridden on the cobbles which is something we haven't seen since boonen 06 and is something that only those 2 can really do.

 

[El Pistolero]

Cancellara is more likely to win lombardia than Gilbert is to win roubaix.

Erm, not really. If Leukemans can get fourth in Roubaix, Gilbert can win it.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

At this point I'd say Sagan is the most likely to win all 5 monuments in his career. And that while he hasn't even won 1 yet.

 

[El Pistolero]

At this point I'd say Sagan is the most likely to win all 5 monuments in his career. And that while he hasn't even won 1 yet.

He's a Gilbert type of rider, only faster in the sprint. Makes me wonder why Sagan didn't react to Pozzato's attack on the Oude Kwaremont. He was right there at the front and strong enough to ride away from everyone else on the Paterberg and go solo.

 

[mr. tibbs]

He's a Gilbert type of rider, only faster in the sprint. Makes me wonder why Sagan didn't react to Pozzato's attack on the Oude Kwaremont. He was right there at the front and strong enough to ride away from everyone else on the Paterberg and go solo.

Speaking of Sagan, have we already had a "Can Sagan Win the Tour?" thread? I can't recall if we have, but--if not--someone better get on that right away!

 

[Parrulo]

Speaking of Sagan, have we already had a "Can Sagan Win the Tour?" thread? I can't recall if we have, but--if not--someone better get on that right away!

meh the "can rider X win the tour" threads became impossible to top after the haussler one

 

[The Hitch]

meh the "can rider X win the tour" threads became impossible to top after the haussler one

lol good point.

Wasn't there a Bobridge one?

 

[c&cfan]

He's a Gilbert type of rider, only faster in the sprint. Makes me wonder why Sagan didn't react to Pozzato's attack on the Oude Kwaremont. He was right there at the front and strong enough to ride away from everyone else on the Paterberg and go solo.

he is not a gilbert type of rider. he is stronger on the TT, flat, much faster and is becoming greater and greater on hills at 22 years. he will be kelly 2.0.