Bradley Wiggins Vs Fabian Cancellera

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Mar 22, 2011
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samhocking said:
It would be interesting to ask Cancellera what victories he'd give up from his palamares in return for a Tour de France victory like Wiggins. Last swiss victory was Koblet in 1951, so not exactly your first ever Tour victor, but not far off.
2008 Olympic, Cancellera took the win ITT by Cervelo S3. It was a hour effort with 2 up and decent of 3xx meters height. After that, many people, including myself imagined Cancellera to train for climbing and hunt for all monuments and TDF. He has won Milan–San Remo and paris roubaix before end of 2008 which are difficult events for climbers.

But it is another talent, who won 2008 Olympic gold metal also to chase for TDF success.

Cancellera looks similar in body shape as Wiggins.. Is it possible?
 
I think he could/should have had a crack at the Tour like Wiggins, yes. He would have had to sacrifice two Classics seasons though so a huge ask for any team to go along with it. Wiggins was extremely lucky, that Sky was looking for a British winner and Wiggins had the freedom at Garmin to get that 3rd place in 2009. Cancellara would have also need a similar new team and freedom to basically turn himself into a different type of rider. Like Wiggins/Sky was laughed at for trying to win Tour, I think Cancellara would also have been ridiculed by many and unlike Wiggins he had a road career where he won the biggest races already, so perhaps a wise move, albeit a very safe career from Cancellara with no big gambles outside his comfort zone.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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dastott said:
The Tour is the pinnacle of cycling, by a large margin. So, with a victory and 3rd place Wiggins has the best palmares surely. 3rd place in Vuelta also is worth a lot.
The Tour might be the pinnacle of cycling, but one weak fluke Tour win doesn't equal 7 Monuments (1x Milan-San Remo, 3x Ronde van Vlaanderen and 3x Paris-Roubaix).

Cancellara also has 8 Tour stages versus 2 of Wiggins. He has also worn the yellow jersey a lot more than Wiggins.

Cancellara's Olympic record is also more impressive to me. 2 Gold Medals in the time trial (record) and a Silver Medal in the Olympic Road Race, on a course that didn't suit him. And Cancellara crashed out in the 2012 Road Race when he was one of the big favorites for the Gold Medal.
 
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samhocking said:
Wiggins v Cancellara

2009: 2 3
2010: 0 2
2011: 4 1
2012: 2 1
2013: 2 0
2014: 2 2

Total: 12 v 9

Wiggins v Martin

2009: 5 2
2010: 1 2
2011: 4 5
2012: 8 0
2013: 0 1
2014: 3 2

Total: 21 v 12
1.) You talked about gt's and worlds, in your comment above, I doubt there were 8 gt, and WC time trials in 2012 where he was better than Martin. Looking at the results at big TT's Wiggins, Cancellara and Martin are pretty even from 2009-2014
2.) Your statistic is missing context. For example in the WC 2011 Cancellara was only 5 seconds behind Wiggins, in the Vuelta TT that year also 5 seconds, and in the WC TT 2013 he was even only 2 seconds behind Wiggins. Those results can be taken into account when you want to know who is the more successful rider, but if you ask who is the better TT'er those results only show that they were basically even in those races. Moreover the number of TT's isn't the same in every year. In the tdf 2012 alone there were 3 TT's and back then Wiggins was at his absolute best. In 2011 and 2013, which were Martin's best ITT seasons, he only rode twice in a big ITT against Wiggins, and won both. Still thats only a 2:0 over two seasons, and 2012 alone a 4:0 for Wiggins.
3.) I don't really understand your statistic anyway. In 2011 there were only 2 TT's in Martin's whole season which he didn't win, and in one of those he was still in front of Wiggins. Same counts for 2009 and Cancellara just that Cancellara didn't loose one single ITT against Wiggins that year.
 
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El Pistolero said:
dastott said:
The Tour is the pinnacle of cycling, by a large margin. So, with a victory and 3rd place Wiggins has the best palmares surely. 3rd place in Vuelta also is worth a lot.
The Tour might be the pinnacle of cycling, but one weak fluke Tour win doesn't equal 7 Monuments (1x Milan-San Remo, 3x Ronde van Vlaanderen and 3x Paris-Roubaix).

Cancellara also has 8 Tour stages versus 2 of Wiggins. He has also worn the yellow jersey a lot more than Wiggins.

Cancellara's Olympic record is also more impressive to me. 2 Gold Medals in the time trial (record) and a Silver Medal in the Olympic Road Race, on a course that didn't suit him. And Cancellara crashed out in the 2012 Road Race when he was one of the big favorites for the Gold Medal.
So Wiggins' tour win was a weak fluke but none of Nibali's have been, right? With that amount of TTing, it's debatable whether Froome would have won, even without his puncture at the start and being allowed to attack

Wearing the yellow jersey is completely irrelevant, because someone who wins stage one can be in yellow for multiple stages while someone who wins six stages wouldn't be in yellow at all if there's been a mountain stage beforehand.

5 Golds, against guys who are specifically training for the Olympics, whereas Canc has 2 golds in a field where only a small percentage peak for the olympics

But don't let objectivity get in the way of your arguments
(But yes, Canc is a lot better than Wiggins)
 
Jul 16, 2010
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PremierAndrew said:
El Pistolero said:
dastott said:
The Tour is the pinnacle of cycling, by a large margin. So, with a victory and 3rd place Wiggins has the best palmares surely. 3rd place in Vuelta also is worth a lot.
The Tour might be the pinnacle of cycling, but one weak fluke Tour win doesn't equal 7 Monuments (1x Milan-San Remo, 3x Ronde van Vlaanderen and 3x Paris-Roubaix).

Cancellara also has 8 Tour stages versus 2 of Wiggins. He has also worn the yellow jersey a lot more than Wiggins.

Cancellara's Olympic record is also more impressive to me. 2 Gold Medals in the time trial (record) and a Silver Medal in the Olympic Road Race, on a course that didn't suit him. And Cancellara crashed out in the 2012 Road Race when he was one of the big favorites for the Gold Medal.
So Wiggins' tour win was a weak fluke but none of Nibali's have been, right? With that amount of TTing, it's debatable whether Froome would have won, even without his puncture at the start and being allowed to attack

Wearing the yellow jersey is completely irrelevant, because someone who wins stage one can be in yellow for multiple stages while someone who wins six stages wouldn't be in yellow at all if there's been a mountain stage beforehand.

5 Golds, against guys who are specifically training for the Olympics, whereas Canc has 2 golds in a field where only a small percentage peak for the olympics

But don't let objectivity get in the way of your arguments
(But yes, Canc is a lot better than Wiggins)
Nibali has four Grand Tour wins. The very definition of a fluke is that you can't repeat it. Wiggins hasn't achieved anything decent on the road after his magic 2012 season, besides that one WC TT title.
 
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PremierAndrew said:
El Pistolero said:
dastott said:
The Tour is the pinnacle of cycling, by a large margin. So, with a victory and 3rd place Wiggins has the best palmares surely. 3rd place in Vuelta also is worth a lot.
The Tour might be the pinnacle of cycling, but one weak fluke Tour win doesn't equal 7 Monuments (1x Milan-San Remo, 3x Ronde van Vlaanderen and 3x Paris-Roubaix).

Cancellara also has 8 Tour stages versus 2 of Wiggins. He has also worn the yellow jersey a lot more than Wiggins.

Cancellara's Olympic record is also more impressive to me. 2 Gold Medals in the time trial (record) and a Silver Medal in the Olympic Road Race, on a course that didn't suit him. And Cancellara crashed out in the 2012 Road Race when he was one of the big favorites for the Gold Medal.
So Wiggins' tour win was a weak fluke but none of Nibali's have been, right? With that amount of TTing, it's debatable whether Froome would have won, even without his puncture at the start and being allowed to attack

Wearing the yellow jersey is completely irrelevant, because someone who wins stage one can be in yellow for multiple stages while someone who wins six stages wouldn't be in yellow at all if there's been a mountain stage beforehand.

5 Golds, against guys who are specifically training for the Olympics, whereas Canc has 2 golds in a field where only a small percentage peak for the olympics

But don't let objectivity get in the way of your arguments
(But yes, Canc is a lot better than Wiggins)
This coming from the same person that insisted that Simon Yates has shown equal or more potential in the grand tours than Esteban Chavez but when questioned about this chose to not respond. Yes indeed, you are the poster boy for objectivity.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Cancellara does have victories in Tirreno Adriatico and the Tour of Switzerland. Say what you want about the courses, they are still one week stage races. IK can't really give Wiggins "well one he focused on ..." to make up for the better part of a decade as pack fill on the road.
 
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samhocking said:
42x16ss said:
Cance. No contest. A far longer and more diverse career at the top.

As for the pursuit, look at Cancellara's record in prologues at his peak and tell me Wigans would have beaten him. The 2004, 2007, 2009 and 2010 TDF prologue wins (ALL with Wigans present and targeting them) all but prove this.
This is the misconception road riders who've never raced track have of it.
The best example to prove this misconception, would be LeBlanc's comments about Boardman's chance of winning the 1994 Tour prologue as Hour Record holder and reiging World Individual Pursuit Champion. Luc LeBlanc (was French national RR champion at the time) said that "if Boardman could break the hour record, then half of the pro peloton could"!
In a twist of fate, Boardman in hist first ever stage of his Tour debut started 1 minute behind LeBlanc. Boarmdan caught and passed LeBlanc for 1 minute and was the only rider to catch his minute man in that prologue. Boardman answered a journalist afterwards about LeBlancs statement about him earlier that season, to which Boardman simply replied "Well, we now know what half of the peloton LeBlanc is in, don't we, this is the race of truth afterall"?
LeBlanc's comments were widely quoted after Boardman won the Prologue but don't the results confirm his original point? Boardman never made it to Paris and LeBlanc finished in 4th overall. Its questionable that could CB even hack it as a domestique.
 
Feb 6, 2016
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myrideissteelerthanyours said:
samhocking said:
42x16ss said:
Cance. No contest. A far longer and more diverse career at the top.

As for the pursuit, look at Cancellara's record in prologues at his peak and tell me Wigans would have beaten him. The 2004, 2007, 2009 and 2010 TDF prologue wins (ALL with Wigans present and targeting them) all but prove this.
This is the misconception road riders who've never raced track have of it.
The best example to prove this misconception, would be LeBlanc's comments about Boardman's chance of winning the 1994 Tour prologue as Hour Record holder and reiging World Individual Pursuit Champion. Luc LeBlanc (was French national RR champion at the time) said that "if Boardman could break the hour record, then half of the pro peloton could"!
In a twist of fate, Boardman in hist first ever stage of his Tour debut started 1 minute behind LeBlanc. Boarmdan caught and passed LeBlanc for 1 minute and was the only rider to catch his minute man in that prologue. Boardman answered a journalist afterwards about LeBlancs statement about him earlier that season, to which Boardman simply replied "Well, we now know what half of the peloton LeBlanc is in, don't we, this is the race of truth afterall"?
LeBlanc's comments were widely quoted after Boardman won the Prologue but don't the results confirm his original point? Boardman never made it to Paris and LeBlanc finished in 4th overall. Its questionable that could CB even hack it as a domestique.
Well, no, it proves Boardman's point. He wasn't exactly saying he was a brilliant climber or GC rider, he was emphasising the difference between track riders and GC riders.
 
Jun 30, 2012
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dastott said:
The Tour is the pinnacle of cycling, by a large margin. So, with a victory and 3rd place Wiggins has the best palmares surely. 3rd place in Vuelta also is worth a lot.
Many would disagree. The Tour is the pinnacle as far as the non-cycling, non-enthusiast general public is concerned, but the sport is much more diverse than that. Does a monument win equal a Tour win? Maybe not, but a classics career is every bit as impressive (if not more so) than a Tour GC career.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Gilbert won the Vélo d'Or in 2011, not Cadel Evans. And now some people here state ONE Tour win equals SEVEN Monuments? Does that mean Oscar Pereiro has a better palmares than Cancellara? And what about Carlos Sastre?
 
Mar 9, 2013
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Really not a Canc fan. And I do have some suspicions on a few of those monuments. But his Palmares are Grander then Wiggo's
 
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samhocking said:
I think he could/should have had a crack at the Tour like Wiggins, yes. He would have had to sacrifice two Classics seasons though so a huge ask for any team to go along with it. Wiggins was extremely lucky, that Sky was looking for a British winner and Wiggins had the freedom at Garmin to get that 3rd place in 2009. Cancellara would have also need a similar new team and freedom to basically turn himself into a different type of rider. Like Wiggins/Sky was laughed at for trying to win Tour, I think Cancellara would also have been ridiculed by many and unlike Wiggins he had a road career where he won the biggest races already, so perhaps a wise move, albeit a very safe career from Cancellara with no big gambles outside his comfort zone.
Why would you risk your career on maybe being able to challenge for a TDF when you've already been one of the greatest TTers ever for the first half of your career (2004-2010) and are already half way to becoming one of the greatest classics riders as well?

You're putting far too much focus on stage racing

I also suspect that BC/Sky may have had a hand in assisting Wigans in adapting from pure TT to all rounder, knowing that if it paid off they had a ready made contender.
 
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IndianCyclist said:
Wiggins transformation was really in 2009, He and his team Garmin were really surprised. Sky came later 2010. Similar to Froome transformation. Sky were not involved.
I'm saying that Wigans probably knew of the Sky project for 2010 and spent his time post Beijing (or at least from early '09) preparing to be their marquee signing ;)
 
Fabian is a better rider. The fact that he's won so many classics outside his status as the greatest time trialist of the century should speak for themselves. I respect Wiggins, but he achieved his biggest road race win in a highly controlled Tour, where looking at his power output was more important than taking decisions himself - in that regard I find Fabian hugely superior. Take Ronde Van Vlaanderen 2014 for instance.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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There are 3 ways to develop a cyclist career.
focus type
- focus on 1 and only 1 of race for whole career.
For example : 5 x PR or 5 x TDF win. (Do nothing in the rest of career)

adopt type
- focus on some race that he could be good and never change.
For example, win sprint races and join some classics. Win 30 TDF stages + some sprint classic.

changing type
- focus on difference type of races from time to time.
- Win TDF, Giro, All Mounmetun, TT, Olympic, WC, some track Events but once only.

Which type of riders.... are considered as stronger?
I think focus type are more respected normally.
 
There is someone who fits the last bill of winning Giro, Tour, all monuments, TTs, WCs and track: Merckx. If anyone else is able to win all that then he will be more respected than someone who wins 5 P-Rs, which is immensely more important than 5 stages in a GT, so I'm not sure why you put them together. Wiggins is more track, TTs, a TDF that is remembered in infamy and a few stage races, as well as an attempt at the hell of the north.
 
I think it's fair to say that Wiggins' career record is more similar to someone like Sastre or Evans. Probably a bit short of Cancellara's achievements.

The more interesting question is whether Sagan will eclipse Cancellara's achievements. I give him better than even money shot at pulling it off.
 
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toolittle said:
Bradley Wiggins spent most of his career in track events. He invested around 3 years to transform to TDF winner and Olympic TT winner.
For some reason you seem to think the fact that he spent his most of his career doing the sports equivalent of clubbing baby seals, ie winning Olympic medals in a sport with a shallow talent pool and only two countries seriously participating, should gain him more rather than less respect when compared to an athlete who spent his career up against the strongest competition cycling has to offer. Similarly you seem to think that the popular overestimation of the significance of track by non-cycling fans in Britain, a result of medal hype and media fueled sporting nationalism, should carry some weight.

Wiggins was an excellent rider and he has some actually significant achievements, his Tour win, his TT wins. But, while I prefer him to Cancellara, his palmares are not as good. And aren't even particularly close.
 
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PremierAndrew said:
Reading this thread, you'd think that Chris Hoy is a more successful cyclist than someone like Cunego
I love track, and I actually like that success has created some actual interest in it in Britain. But the negative side of that success is that a lot of people in Britain have a really very confused idea about the place of track in the pecking order of competitive bike riding.
 
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