Bradley Wiggins Vs Fabian Cancellera

[hrotha]

Back when Wiggins was "fully specialized" and "focused" on time-trialing, Cancellara routinely destroyed him with ease. Funny, that.

 

[Mr.White]

I think it's fair to say that Wiggins' career record is more similar to someone like Sastre or Evans. Probably a bit short of Cancellara's achievements.

The more interesting question is whether Sagan will eclipse Cancellara's achievements. I give him better than even money shot at pulling it off.

Evans has better palmares than Wiggins easily, and he was a better rider than him

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Wiggins v Cancellara

2009: 2 3
2010: 0 2
2011: 4 1
2012: 2 1
2013: 2 0
2014: 2 2

Total: 12 v 9

Wiggins v Martin

2009: 5 2
2010: 1 2
2011: 4 5
2012: 8 0
2013: 0 1
2014: 3 2

Total: 21 v 12

1.) You talked about gt's and worlds, in your comment above, I doubt there were 8 gt, and WC time trials in 2012 where he was better than Martin. Looking at the results at big TT's Wiggins, Cancellara and Martin are pretty even from 2009-2014
2.) Your statistic is missing context. For example in the WC 2011 Cancellara was only 5 seconds behind Wiggins, in the Vuelta TT that year also 5 seconds, and in the WC TT 2013 he was even only 2 seconds behind Wiggins. Those results can be taken into account when you want to know who is the more successful rider, but if you ask who is the better TT'er those results only show that they were basically even in those races. Moreover the number of TT's isn't the same in every year. In the tdf 2012 alone there were 3 TT's and back then Wiggins was at his absolute best. In 2011 and 2013, which were Martin's best ITT seasons, he only rode twice in a big ITT against Wiggins, and won both. Still thats only a 2:0 over two seasons, and 2012 alone a 4:0 for Wiggins.
3.) I don't really understand your statistic anyway. In 2011 there were only 2 TT's in Martin's whole season which he didn't win, and in one of those he was still in front of Wiggins. Same counts for 2009 and Cancellara just that Cancellara didn't loose one single ITT against Wiggins that year.

Those are TT head 2 head results where Wiggins has faced Cancellera and/or Martin. I was just using them to point out that in terms of timetrialling Wiggins has finished ahead of them more often than behind them. e.g. in 2014 Wiggins beat Cancellara 2 times and Cancellera beat Wiggins 2 times.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Wiggins v Cancellara

2009: 2 3
2010: 0 2
2011: 4 1
2012: 2 1
2013: 2 0
2014: 2 2

Total: 12 v 9

Wiggins v Martin

2009: 5 2
2010: 1 2
2011: 4 5
2012: 8 0
2013: 0 1
2014: 3 2

Total: 21 v 12

1.) You talked about gt's and worlds, in your comment above, I doubt there were 8 gt, and WC time trials in 2012 where he was better than Martin. Looking at the results at big TT's Wiggins, Cancellara and Martin are pretty even from 2009-2014
2.) Your statistic is missing context. For example in the WC 2011 Cancellara was only 5 seconds behind Wiggins, in the Vuelta TT that year also 5 seconds, and in the WC TT 2013 he was even only 2 seconds behind Wiggins. Those results can be taken into account when you want to know who is the more successful rider, but if you ask who is the better TT'er those results only show that they were basically even in those races. Moreover the number of TT's isn't the same in every year. In the tdf 2012 alone there were 3 TT's and back then Wiggins was at his absolute best. In 2011 and 2013, which were Martin's best ITT seasons, he only rode twice in a big ITT against Wiggins, and won both. Still thats only a 2:0 over two seasons, and 2012 alone a 4:0 for Wiggins.
3.) I don't really understand your statistic anyway. In 2011 there were only 2 TT's in Martin's whole season which he didn't win, and in one of those he was still in front of Wiggins. Same counts for 2009 and Cancellara just that Cancellara didn't loose one single ITT against Wiggins that year.

Those are TT head 2 head results where Wiggins has faced Cancellera and/or Martin. I was just using them to point out that in terms of timetrialling Wiggins has finished ahead of them more often than behind them. e.g. in 2014 Wiggins beat Cancellara 2 times and Cancellera beat Wiggins 2 times.

That's only since 2009, when Wigans lifted things a notch in the TT and improved around 150 places in the mountains.

A comparison between Cance and Wigans from 2004 to 2010 would be far more telling.

 

[samhocking]

Wiggins was within Olympic cycles for the track between 2004 to 2008, so pretty pointless to use them. Road paid his mortgage so he could train over the next Olympic cycle in the pursuit, much like Brad McGee. If you're going to compare the results of two riders, you need to at least do it, when they are both focusing on the same discipline at the same time.

 

[hrotha]

Hogwash. You could argue that for 2004 and 2008 at most; nobody spends the whole 4 years between Games just fooling around. Wiggins was an accomplished road racer during those years, he was simply a very specialized rider, and not that great. He was already extremely fit and thin, certainly by 2007.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

Hogwash. You could argue that for 2004 and 2008 at most; nobody spends the whole 4 years between Games just fooling around. Wiggins was an accomplished road racer during those years, he was simply a very specialized rider, and not that great. He was already extremely fit and thin, certainly by 2007.

You still have to spend the 3 years inbetween focusing on your event at World cup and World Championships. You still need to be faster than others every year to keep your place in Team GB in order to just get to the Olympics every 4 years. Look at the facts - Wiggins really didn't face Cancellera that much in ITT during his track years. They faced each other only 5 times in ITT between 2004 to 2008. If you want to add the results it means:

Wiggins v Cancellara

2004 0 1
2005 0 1
2006 0 0
2007 1 1
2008 0 1

2009: 2 3
2010: 0 2
2011: 4 1
2012: 2 1
2013: 2 0
2014: 2 2

So over those10 years, they raced in the same ITT 26 times. 13 times Wiggins beat Cancellera to his 13 beating Wiggins. It's pretty clear that between 2004 to 2008 Wiggins wasn't really focusing on the big ITTs like Cancellera was his whole career. I'd also argue, Cancellera's career was focused on doing well in ITT, whereeas, certainly in 2004 to 2008 Wiggins was largely a domestique role like Brad McGee.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Hogwash. You could argue that for 2004 and 2008 at most; nobody spends the whole 4 years between Games just fooling around. Wiggins was an accomplished road racer during those years, he was simply a very specialized rider, and not that great. He was already extremely fit and thin, certainly by 2007.

You still have to spend the 3 years inbetween focusing on your event at World cup and World Championships. You still need to be faster than others every year to keep your place in Team GB in order to just get to the Olympics every 4 years. Look at the facts - Wiggins really didn't face Cancellera that much in ITT during his track years. They faced each other only 5 times in ITT between 2004 to 2008. If you want to add the results it means:

Wiggins v Cancellara

2004 0 1
2005 0 1
2006 0 0
2007 1 1
2008 0 1

2009: 2 3
2010: 0 2
2011: 4 1
2012: 2 1
2013: 2 0
2014: 2 2

So over those10 years, they raced in the same ITT 26 times. 13 times Wiggins beat Cancellera to his 13 beating Wiggins. It's pretty clear that between 2004 to 2008 Wiggins wasn't really focusing on the big ITTs like Cancellera was his whole career. I'd also argue, Cancellera's career was focused on doing well in ITT, whereeas, certainly in 2004 to 2008 Wiggins was largely a domestique role like Brad McGee.

Huh?

As an example, the 2007 number can't be right - there were 3 ITTs in the Tour alone and Cancellara smashed the prologue while Wigans was OK in the first long ITT where Cancellara crashed badly in the wet. Wigans had withdrawn by the second long ITT.

They raced again at the WCs where Cancellara won and Wigans was 10th at 2'10

 

[Corrections]

Re: Re:

Hogwash. You could argue that for 2004 and 2008 at most; nobody spends the whole 4 years between Games just fooling around. Wiggins was an accomplished road racer during those years, he was simply a very specialized rider, and not that great. He was already extremely fit and thin, certainly by 2007.

You still have to spend the 3 years inbetween focusing on your event at World cup and World Championships. You still need to be faster than others every year to keep your place in Team GB in order to just get to the Olympics every 4 years. Look at the facts - Wiggins really didn't face Cancellera that much in ITT during his track years. They faced each other only 5 times in ITT between 2004 to 2008. If you want to add the results it means:

Wiggins v Cancellara

2004 0 1
2005 0 1
2006 0 0
2007 1 1
2008 0 1

2009: 2 3
2010: 0 2
2011: 4 1
2012: 2 1
2013: 2 0
2014: 2 2

So over those10 years, they raced in the same ITT 26 times. 13 times Wiggins beat Cancellera to his 13 beating Wiggins. It's pretty clear that between 2004 to 2008 Wiggins wasn't really focusing on the big ITTs like Cancellera was his whole career. I'd also argue, Cancellera's career was focused on doing well in ITT, whereeas, certainly in 2004 to 2008 Wiggins was largely a domestique role like Brad McGee.

Huh?

As an example, the 2007 number can't be right - there were 3 ITTs in the Tour alone and Cancellara smashed the prologue while Wigans was OK in the first long ITT where Cancellara crashed badly in the wet. Wigans had withdrawn by the second long ITT.

They raced again at the WCs where Cancellara won and Wigans was 10th at 2'10

Yes, according to CQranking, the score is Wiggins: 8 - Cancellara: 15 (once you ignore TTT)

 

[Black Betsy]

Re:

Back when Wiggins was "fully specialized" and "focused" on time-trialing, Cancellara routinely destroyed him with ease. Funny, that.

Quoted For Truth, on contrary to revisionist beliefs.

 

[samhocking]

Ahh OK, I didn't realise Team Timetrials were included when you selected Timetrial from the dropdown because 'Team Timetrial' is a specific search option it appears they should be mutually exlusive? Bit of a bug perhaps in CQ?

Interestingly I just looed back to track appearances and the only year Wiggins didn't seem to go for Individual and/or Team Pursuit before his 2008 departure for road was 2005 & 2006 seasons.

1998 World Individual Pursuit
1999 National Madison
2000 World Team Pursuit, 6 days, Olympic Team Pursuit
2001 World Team Pursuit
2002 Commonwealth Team & Individual Pursuit
2003 World Team & Individual Pursuit
2004 Olympic Team & Individual Pursuit
2005 No track programme
2006 No track programme
2007 World Team & Individual Pursuit
2008 World Team & Individual Pursuit + Olympic Team & Individual Pursuit

 

[samhocking]

I've messaged Cancellera and asked him what TT & Road victories including he would give up in his career in return for 6 Olympic Golds, 8 World Track Championships, a Tour de France, a 3rd in Tour de France, a 3rd in Vuelta and a couple of Dauphiné's, a Romandie, and a Paris-Nice lol. Wonder if he'll respond?

 

[El Pistolero]

Olympic Golds in track cycling don't mean much. Next you'll tell me Jason Kenny is a bigger Olympian than Usain Bolt.

 

[toolittle]

Re:

5 x PR win vs 1x MSR + 1xPR + 1xTOF + 1xLBL + 1GDL

which one is bigger?

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

5 x PR win vs 1x MSR + 1xPR + 1xTOF + 1xLBL + 1GDL

which one is bigger?

Obviously the second one because winning all 5 Monuments is unheard of in modern cycling.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

5 x PR win vs 1x MSR + 1xPR + 1xTOF + 1xLBL + 1GDL

which one is bigger?

Obviously the second one because winning all 5 Monuments is unheard of in modern cycling. And the only Tour de France winner of this century that also won a Monument is Vincenzo Nibali.

Andy. Schleck.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

5 x PR win vs 1x MSR + 1xPR + 1xTOF + 1xLBL + 1GDL

which one is bigger?

Obviously the second one because winning all 5 Monuments is unheard of in modern cycling. And the only Tour de France winner of this century that also won a Monument is Vincenzo Nibali.

Andy. Schleck.

Never won the Tour.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

5 x PR win vs 1x MSR + 1xPR + 1xTOF + 1xLBL + 1GDL

which one is bigger?

Obviously the second one because winning all 5 Monuments is unheard of in modern cycling. And the only Tour de France winner of this century that also won a Monument is Vincenzo Nibali.

Andy. Schleck.

Never won the Tour.

Take it to The Clinic.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

Back when Wiggins was "fully specialized" and "focused" on time-trialing, Cancellara routinely destroyed him with ease. Funny, that.

Indeed. You really have to wonder what Cancellara could have achieved with the famed training program that saw Brad lose a lot of weight and gain quite a bit of raw power.

Up to the point at which Wiggins started being really strong in stage races, it appeared that the similarly sized Cancellara was better than Wiggins at every single aspect of cycling, his duration-power curve basically being Wiggins' only shifted up.

 

[Vladivar]

Brad played guitar on stage with Paul Weller, now that is Palmares

 

[toolittle]

Re: Re:

5 x PR win vs 1x MSR + 1xPR + 1xTOF + 1xLBL + 1GDL

which one is bigger?

Obviously the second one because winning all 5 Monuments is unheard of in modern cycling.

5 x PR is also unheard of in modern cycling.

If 5 x pr is similar to 5 x 800m hurdle race WC, then all 5 monumnets is 400mhurdles (MSR) + 700m hurdles(TOF) + 800m hurdles (PR) + 800m run (LBL) + 700m (GDL) run?

Then TDF is a marathon.

Track racing is swimming.. with less population, more types of race and then less competition. Easier to win more swimming events.

Is it a good anology?

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

5 x PR win vs 1x MSR + 1xPR + 1xTOF + 1xLBL + 1GDL

which one is bigger?

Obviously the second one because winning all 5 Monuments is unheard of in modern cycling.

5 x PR is also unheard of in modern cycling.

If 5 x pr is similar to 5 x 800m hurdle race WC, then all 5 monumnets is 400mhurdles (MSR) + 700m hurdles(TOF) + 800m hurdles (PR) + 800m run (LBL) + 700m (GDL) run?

Then TDF is a marathon.

Track racing is swimming.. with less population, more types of race and then less competition. Easier to win more swimming events.

Is it a good anology?

Nobody has gotten close to winning all 5 Monuments in modern cycling, Boonen has gotten close to winning Paris-Roubaix five times. Winning all five Monuments is simply greater because you need to be incredibly all-round to pull a feat like that off.

There's more difference between the five different Monuments than between track cycling and road cycling. If you can ride hard on the track chances are you can ride hard on the road as well.

 

[jahn]

Re: Re:

5 x PR win vs 1x MSR + 1xPR + 1xTOF + 1xLBL + 1GDL

which one is bigger?

Obviously the second one because winning all 5 Monuments is unheard of in modern cycling.

5 x PR is also unheard of in modern cycling.

If 5 x pr is similar to 5 x 800m hurdle race WC, then all 5 monumnets is 400mhurdles (MSR) + 700m hurdles(TOF) + 800m hurdles (PR) + 800m run (LBL) + 700m (GDL) run?

Then TDF is a marathon.

Track racing is swimming.. with less population, more types of race and then less competition. Easier to win more swimming events.

Is it a good anology?

Decent enough analogy, but the competition and talent pool between track cycling and swimming is like comparing the sun to UY Scuti. Point was already brought up I know, but the scale is immense between the two.

Imagine how many people have access to a 50m pool compared to a velodrome and a bike with pursuit bars.

 

[toolittle]

Re: Re:

5 x PR win vs 1x MSR + 1xPR + 1xTOF + 1xLBL + 1GDL

which one is bigger?

Obviously the second one because winning all 5 Monuments is unheard of in modern cycling.

5 x PR is also unheard of in modern cycling.

If 5 x pr is similar to 5 x 800m hurdle race WC, then all 5 monumnets is 400mhurdles (MSR) + 700m hurdles(TOF) + 800m hurdles (PR) + 800m run (LBL) + 700m (GDL) run?

Then TDF is a marathon.

Track racing is swimming.. with less population, more types of race and then less competition. Easier to win more swimming events.

Is it a good anology?

Nobody has gotten close to winning all 5 Monuments in modern cycling, Boonen has gotten close to winning Paris-Roubaix five times. Winning all five Monuments is simply greater because you need to be incredibly all-round to pull a feat like that off.

There's more difference between the five different Monuments than between track cycling and road cycling. If you can ride hard on the track chances are you can ride hard on the road as well.

Agreed.

After a careful review Bradley results... It seems Wiggins first big result on road is 2009 TDF 3rd.
Before that, Wiggins won some ITT. May be... he is a Cadel type at the begining .. (since 2008 he left track events).

 

[Bardamu]

Wiggins was boring as hell as a road cyclist. Great palmares though, but he will not be remembered for the way he won races. Spartacus on the other hand has spectacular victories and spectacular racing all together + an amazing palmares.