British politics

[ferryman]

Re:

-So Dave decides to promise a referendum to stop Nigel in his tracks in an election Dave doesn't think he will win overall but expects to go into coalition with that guy every one has forgot about, was he called Nick.

Dave wins the eletction without the need for the guy no one remembers, which means Ed resigns and Jez replaces him. Now Jez wants to leave but doesnt say it.

Along comes the referendum and Nigel obviously wants to leave, Boz wants to stay but says he wants to leave as he wants Daves job and Jez says he wants to stay but only half heartedly as he wants to leave but those who got him his postion overwhemingly want to stay.

So Dave says if we leave we will sink into the sea without trace or something like that, maybe he was exaggerating.
Nigel being Nigel says nasty things about the other.
Boris does what he does best, says something he doesnt mean to get the laughs, at Jez doesnt say much that anyone is interested in.

The Nicola says she wants us to stay but hopes we leave while hoping those north of the wall want to stay, so those north of the wall can have another referendum.

The vote comes, Dave resigns, Nigel is jubilant, Jez says leave immediatialy and Boris eyes Dave's vacant job.

Does that sum it up?

North of the wall. I can't be bothered with your sum up. Simply because of your obvious bias. Go look up Hadrian's wall and revisit your clearly anti Scottish post.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

-So Dave decides to promise a referendum to stop Nigel in his tracks in an election Dave doesn't think he will win overall but expects to go into coalition with that guy every one has forgot about, was he called Nick.

Dave wins the eletction without the need for the guy no one remembers, which means Ed resigns and Jez replaces him. Now Jez wants to leave but doesnt say it.

Along comes the referendum and Nigel obviously wants to leave, Boz wants to stay but says he wants to leave as he wants Daves job and Jez says he wants to stay but only half heartedly as he wants to leave but those who got him his postion overwhemingly want to stay.

So Dave says if we leave we will sink into the sea without trace or something like that, maybe he was exaggerating.
Nigel being Nigel says nasty things about the other.
Boris does what he does best, says something he doesnt mean to get the laughs, at Jez doesnt say much that anyone is interested in.

The Nicola says she wants us to stay but hopes we leave while hoping those north of the wall want to stay, so those north of the wall can have another referendum.

The vote comes, Dave resigns, Nigel is jubilant, Jez says leave immediatialy and Boris eyes Dave's vacant job.

Does that sum it up?

North of the wall. I can't be bothered with your sum up. Simply because of your obvious bias. Go look up Hadrian's wall and revisit your clearly anti Scottish post.

You Scots are so dour, north of the wall is just figurative, I know where the border is, I know where carter bar is , where Berwick is and Cornhill/Coldstream, and somewhere where the M6 turns into another road.

 

[gooner]

Not bothered one way about how the vote transpired but I see a lot of ignorance by sections of the Remain vote to older people who voted to Leave as if their vote means less. Experience and knowledge counts for nothing.

"Older people know your role, that is unless you are on the Remain side".

All Northern Irish people are entitled to an Irish passport and there has been a big increase in applications for them, even from Unionist areas.

What was promised to people of pension age anyway to make them vote the way the did?

If there was no tangible benefit presented and if there is comparatively less downside for them (I'll happily defer to someone with more knowledge of the pension system on this matter) should the economy underperform post-EU, I can see why the younger voter might put less value on their votes.

Fair enough whatever their reasons for voting Leave but on social media today in the reaction by some Remain voters to the result, it has been made out that older people voting for Leave who won't live long with the decision while the intelligent youth have to live with it for decades to come.

That is plain wrong. This is just one example I seen today of it.

https://twitter.com/DanielEspinosaR/status/746421578393591808

All voters have an equal right to have a vote irrespective of age and older people's vote carries the same weight as that of the youth.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

If you look at the age breakdown posted earlier together with this votes by region map, it's easy to see why lots of people in lots of places are seriously unhappy today.

Half of Northern Ireland voted leave, half voted to stay. Everything else on that graphic is accurate though

 

[blutto]

Re:

Well, I could be wrong here, but at a glance the 16-24 age group is roughly about 8 million people, so getting off their "duffs" and having a turnout in line with the average would not have been enough.

Edit: 18-24 age group is probably closer to 6 million.

....one would think that if the issue was important, and the comments from the losing side seem to confirm that, that the response bar should be set at a whole lot more than average....something maybe a bit more robust than average is sort of expected in almost any sports competition...like, bravo, you were barely average today, and guess what, your ass just got handed to you on a platter ( you would never expect that from a sports team so why is that ok for something that is actually important )...

....btw what is interesting is the demographic just above that was a tepid supporter of remain....56% is a number I saw....and the numbers tumble as the age of the demographic increases....so maybe a good question is why at this point the emphasis on this one demographic....makes for a good headline ? ..no other solid critique available ?....

Cheers

 

[gooner]

Just watched Newsnight back and Paris Lees another one coming out with "the older people voting for Leave who won't live long with the decision".

Should we stop all older people from voting in future referendums or does that only apply when she disagrees with them.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Re: Re:

Half of Northern Ireland voted leave, half voted to stay. Everything else on that graphic is accurate though

Serious question as I honestly don't know - are you saying that Republicans voted remain, while Unionists voted leave?

 

[Sciocco]

Cool NI map on the referendum:
http://i.imgur.com/dIbtsWv.jpg

Congrats to the UK on the vote.

 

[ferryman]

Re: Re:

-So Dave decides to promise a referendum to stop Nigel in his tracks in an election Dave doesn't think he will win overall but expects to go into coalition with that guy every one has forgot about, was he called Nick.

Dave wins the eletction without the need for the guy no one remembers, which means Ed resigns and Jez replaces him. Now Jez wants to leave but doesnt say it.

Along comes the referendum and Nigel obviously wants to leave, Boz wants to stay but says he wants to leave as he wants Daves job and Jez says he wants to stay but only half heartedly as he wants to leave but those who got him his postion overwhemingly want to stay.

So Dave says if we leave we will sink into the sea without trace or something like that, maybe he was exaggerating.
Nigel being Nigel says nasty things about the other.
Boris does what he does best, says something he doesnt mean to get the laughs, at Jez doesnt say much that anyone is interested in.

The Nicola says she wants us to stay but hopes we leave while hoping those north of the wall want to stay, so those north of the wall can have another referendum.

The vote comes, Dave resigns, Nigel is jubilant, Jez says leave immediatialy and Boris eyes Dave's vacant job.

Does that sum it up?

North of the wall. I can't be bothered with your sum up. Simply because of your obvious bias. Go look up Hadrian's wall and revisit your clearly anti Scottish post.

You Scots are so dour, north of the wall is just figurative, I know where the border is, I know where carter bar is , where Berwick is and Cornhill/Coldstream, and somewhere where the M6 turns into another road.

You clearly don't know where the border is (try and work that one out). Figuratievly speaking you are correct for once...

 

[gooner]

Re:

Cool NI map on the referendum:
http://i.imgur.com/dIbtsWv.jpg

Congrats to the UK on the vote.

Thanks for this. A good break down of the Nationalist and Unionist areas and how they voted.

 

[fatsprintking]

Re:

I recommend this long, but quite excellent, historic perspective to all interested readers here.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/21/brexit-euroscepticism-history

This bit stood out.

Speaking in the Commons, Bevin insisted that Great Britain was still a great power. In private, he was contradicted by Sir Henry Tizard, scientist, Whitehall middleman, and a patriot whose work ensuring that radar was installed around the coastline by 1940, had been decisive in the Battle of Britain. In 1949, Tizard wrote a remarkable memorandum, concerned with the pointless endeavour to build an “independent” nuclear deterrent. “We persist in regarding ourselves as a Great Power capable of everything and only temporarily handicapped by economic difficulties,” he said. “We are not a Great Power and never will be again. We are a great nation, but if we continue to behave like a Great Power we shall soon cease to be a great nation.” Tizard’s wise words might be an epigraph – and an epitaph – for our story since then.

 

[Avoriaz]

Re:

-So Dave decides to promise a referendum to stop Nigel in his tracks in an election Dave doesn't think he will win overall but expects to go into coalition with that guy every one has forgot about, was he called Nick.

Dave wins the eletction without the need for the guy no one remembers, which means Ed resigns and Jez replaces him. Now Jez wants to leave but doesnt say it.

Along comes the referendum and Nigel obviously wants to leave, Boz wants to stay but says he wants to leave as he wants Daves job and Jez says he wants to stay but only half heartedly as he wants to leave but those who got him his postion overwhemingly want to stay.

So Dave says if we leave we will sink into the sea without trace or something like that, maybe he was exaggerating.
Nigel being Nigel says nasty things about the other.
Boris does what he does best, says something he doesnt mean to get the laughs, at Jez doesnt say much that anyone is interested in.

The Nicola says she wants us to stay but hopes we leave while hoping those north of the wall want to stay, so those north of the wall can have another referendum.

The vote comes, Dave resigns, Nigel is jubilant, Jez says leave immediatialy and Boris eyes Dave's vacant job.

Does that sum it up?

I think you missed the bit where people south of the wall pray for Nicola to lead the revolution and become our benign dictator

 

[Avoriaz]

Re:

I recommend this long, but quite excellent, historic perspective to all interested readers here.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/21/brexit-euroscepticism-history

Guy who wrote this article, Geoffrey Wheatcroft, also wrote the book Le Tour a few years ago

 

[Brullnux]

Corbyn now might leave. He made a mistake by not being at the forefront of the campaign and possibly lost the referendum this way, as many Labour heartlands, Sunderland and Stoke for example, voted out. However, it cannot be said his view and feelings were out of touch with the general population. He said the EU was a 7.5/10, and that it needed to become more social. He also did the unthinkable: tell the truth. When asked about immigration, he said that it is impossible to have an upper limit on immigration in the EU, which is true and a brave thing to admit. Yet, the media and his party lambasted him for doing the one thing we always ask politicians to do. He is an honest man with faults. I am not sure if he is leadership material, but if he is to be replaced he has to be replaced by another left wing or soft left candidate, because that is where the support lies.

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

Well, I could be wrong here, but at a glance the 16-24 age group is roughly about 8 million people, so getting off their "duffs" and having a turnout in line with the average would not have been enough.

Edit: 18-24 age group is probably closer to 6 million.

....one would think that if the issue was important, and the comments from the losing side seem to confirm that, that the response bar should be set at a whole lot more than average....something maybe a bit more robust than average is sort of expected in almost any sports competition...like, bravo, you were barely average today, and guess what, your *** just got handed to you on a platter ( you would never expect that from a sports team so why is that ok for something that is actually important )...

....btw what is interesting is the demographic just above that was a tepid supporter of remain....56% is a number I saw....and the numbers tumble as the age of the demographic increases....so maybe a good question is why at this point the emphasis on this one demographic....makes for a good headline ? ..no other solid critique available ?....

Cheers

Average is merely an example. Turnout would have needed to be approximately 25% higher than actual for that age group alone to make up the difference.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

Well, I could be wrong here, but at a glance the 16-24 age group is roughly about 8 million people, so getting off their "duffs" and having a turnout in line with the average would not have been enough.

Edit: 18-24 age group is probably closer to 6 million.

....one would think that if the issue was important, and the comments from the losing side seem to confirm that, that the response bar should be set at a whole lot more than average....something maybe a bit more robust than average is sort of expected in almost any sports competition...like, bravo, you were barely average today, and guess what, your *** just got handed to you on a platter ( you would never expect that from a sports team so why is that ok for something that is actually important )...

....btw what is interesting is the demographic just above that was a tepid supporter of remain....56% is a number I saw....and the numbers tumble as the age of the demographic increases....so maybe a good question is why at this point the emphasis on this one demographic....makes for a good headline ? ..no other solid critique available ?....

Cheers

Average is merely an example. Turnout would have needed to be approximately 25% higher than actual for that age group alone to make up the difference.

....point taken....was doing a bit of transposing from our recent election where the youth did magnificently come off their duffs and helped sweep a rather noxious right wing government out of office ( 10% more voters participated in the recent election than the last and they were mainly youth....and they did make a huge difference...)....and assumed that the demographic numbers were roughly the same ( which may not be the case )...

....that being said that 25% increase would yield an 84% turnout which would have been a good bit above average for Western elections in more modern times but not absolutely outside the realm of possibility ( Canada for instance had several elections mid 20th century where the turnout was almost 80% and the issues were not hyper critical )....and this was an above average issue after all ...

Cheers

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

If you look at the age breakdown posted earlier together with this votes by region map, it's easy to see why lots of people in lots of places are seriously unhappy today.

I wonder if we'd be seeing these kind of posts if remain had won 52 48, or would the exact same system be being praised as "democratic" and as a "mandate" etc.

Just a thought.

 

[Netserk]

Hitch, may I ask what you voted and why?

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

If you look at the age breakdown posted earlier together with this votes by region map, it's easy to see why lots of people in lots of places are seriously unhappy today.

I wonder if we'd be seeing these kind of posts if remain had won 52 48, or would the exact same system be being praised as "democratic" and as a "mandate" etc.

Just a thought.

I definitely think so. Maybe not here considering the majority support remain, but on the rest of social media for sure.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Ah yes, the mindless nostalgia symptom.

You are right. "When I was young" politics was always conducted with morals, no one ever lied or exaggerated or said something that wasn't true, no politician anyway.

But now its the post factual era.

Okay, when was the last time a referendum result in the UK flew against the quasi-unanimous advice of economic, security, health care, labour and scientific experts, as well as the country's key allies and major trading partners?

I'm sorry, but people who voted leave have their own reasons for doing so, and no one, not you, not hedge funds, allies, "experts" etc, no one, has the right to tell these people what their interests are and what they should vote for. You don't live their lives for them

And advice is not fact.

Interests and values are just one component of good decision making. The other component is facts about how the world works. It matters a great deal what the actual implications of the Brexit are going to be, so that people can choose the option that's actually best for them, as opposed to merely what they believe is best for them. Arriving at reasonable conclusions about those implications requires substantial research or deference to the experts that have done that research. On many questions it comes down to the latter because people don't have the resources to do the research themselves.

'post fact ' is a very apt term for the attitude that amounts to not doing the research yet not deferring to the experts either.

Because historically voters have always deferred to the experts and done research?

Fact is elections have always and will likely always include a significant % of the electorate who don't understand the issues they are voting on.

But ignorance comes in shades. Even the people who hold their nose up at the masses possess ignorance. I will readily admit I am ignorant and if I'm lucky 5 years from now I will look back and realize just how little I understood some things, just as now I look back at my former self and shake my head at mistakes I made.

That's part of the process and democracy is still in my opinion by far the best system.

And no one is so enlightened that they get to tell everyone else what they should vote for

And if you, CMP or anyone else actually believes that just because the experts say something, it must be true, well then this should classify as mandatory reading:

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

If you look at the age breakdown posted earlier together with this votes by region map, it's easy to see why lots of people in lots of places are seriously unhappy today.

I wonder if we'd be seeing these kind of posts if remain had won 52 48, or would the exact same system be being praised as "democratic" and as a "mandate" etc.

Just a thought.

....good point....and given who is at present doing the "screaming" not likely ( they would have retained their preferred economic benefits and wouldn't care much beyond that )....

....while I may not get this quite right but a while ago a similar debate was being waged and some of the casualties were going to be two of our most sacred modern cows, economic growth and the value of the stock market....a friend likened the hew and cry from those most concerned about those bovines ( and may I add to the exclusion of everything else ) to taking the " but think of the children " argument and simply substituting money for children so it actually read " but think of the money " ( which frankly is the other post Brexit battle cry that is being screamed by the losers....so if one were being really cynical the sad tale of the screwed youth is just the lipstick on the business pig that is used to gorging at the trough where the "important people" eat.....)...think Greece and the absence of any outcry about the future of the youth there ( and need I add the pigs there are doing just fine there because everybody else got the haircut...and never got to enjoy the ride...)

Cheers

...edit....file under just sayin' eh....

There are two big losers from the Brits’ decision to “Leave” – UK Billionaires… and the rest of Europe.

As Bloomberg reports… Britain’s 15 wealthiest citizens had $5.5 billion erased from their collective fortune Friday after the country voted to leave the European Union. Britain’s richest person, Gerald Grosvenor, led the decline with a loss of $1 billion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index. He was followed by Topshop owner Philip Green, fellow land baron Charles Cadogan and Bruno Schroder, majority shareholder of money manager Schroders Plc.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/06/tyler-durden/biggest-losers-brexit/

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Hitch, may I ask what you voted and why?

Remain.

Because as someone who lives and works in London it would most likely be to my financial benefit for the UK to stay in the EU.

 

[Miburo]

Hitch, EU and by matter of fact all EU countries aren't a democracy.

EU has for example the council and the european council. And some of these decision have to be taken unanimous. So one country can control them all. Very much a democracy...Same with the united nations.

And doesn't the UK have the system where if you win a part of a region, the one with the most votes gets all the seat in that region ignoring the other voters. Much of a democracy. France has a system like that,

And the people have not much of a say in the government.

Democracy? It's all one big joke

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

And if you, CMP or anyone else actually believes that just because the experts say something, it must be true, well then this should classify as mandatory reading:

I don't think Serious Sam, I or anyone else are arguing it must be true. What we are saying is that the quasi-unanimous voice of the experts is rather more likely to be true than any uninformed opinion.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

And if you, CMP or anyone else actually believes that just because the experts say something, it must be true, well then this should classify as mandatory reading:

I don't think Serious Sam, I or anyone else are arguing it must be true. What we are saying is that the quasi-unanimous voice of the experts is rather more likely to be true than any uninformed opinion.

True for who?

Every person lives their own lives and will know what they want, far better than far away experts