British politics

Mar 14, 2016
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It's kind of unfair to have just a US Politics thread and a UK politics one, so here goes.

What do you think the government should do to address the Tata Steel issue, if anything?
 
Dec 7, 2010
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CheckMyPecs said:
It's kind of unfair to have just a US Politics thread and a UK politics one, so here goes.

What do you think the government should do to address the Tata Steel issue, if anything?
I wish you gentelmen luck. Not sure the folks here on this UK site want to talk UK politics. It would be a learning experience for someone like me, I don't keep up with UK politics. I doubt I would chime in but would be interested to read.
 
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May 14, 2010
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If the workers at the plant are convinced a self-sustaining business can be made of it, maybe the government should give them some assistance in business planning, encourage them to form a partnership, extend to them a low-interest loan, and turn it into a worker-owned cooperative. That would put profit and loss responsibility on the workers themselves, and could save their jobs. If it fails, the workers would have only themselves to blame, but if it succeeds then everyone should be happy.
 
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Apr 3, 2016
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The government isn't interested. It has an ideological dislike of governing. It sees itself as more of a regulatory body. Profit is the only consideration. There is no bigger picture.

Besides, an investment group looks like they are purchasing some of the plants for a 'nominal sum'. I foresee asset stripping.
 
I think Alpe will move this into the World Politics thread, but I'll contribute anyway.

I agree with Max (as I seem to be doing quite often these days). Tata and anyone else who buys the steel company will end up at the same point. This is due to many factors, primarily the UK government blocking EU measures to protect British/European steel from Chinese steel dumping. The government is never going to buy it. There's no question. Cooperative will be interesting, and possibly the best solution.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Brullnux said:
I think Alpe will move this into the World Politics thread, but I'll contribute anyway.
I suspect the same. There have never been enough interested Brits around, and let's be honest, British politics aren't nearly as seedy and salacious. :p

I would just like to register my undying adoration for Dennis Skinner. He refused to withdraw his characterization of Cameron as, "dodgy Dave" when asked to do so by the Speaker, and was then promptly ejected from the sitting. :cool:
 
May 14, 2010
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Amsterhammer said:
I suspect the same. There have never been enough interested Brits around, and let's be honest, British politics aren't nearly as seedy and salacious. :p


I would just like to register my undying adoration for Dennis Skinner. He refused to withdraw his characterization of Cameron as, "dodgy Dave" when asked to do so by the Speaker, and was then promptly ejected from the sitting. :cool:
I saw that. :D Very entertaining.
 
Feb 6, 2016
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Amsterhammer said:
Brullnux said:
I think Alpe will move this into the World Politics thread, but I'll contribute anyway.
I suspect the same. There have never been enough interested Brits around, and let's be honest, British politics aren't nearly as seedy and salacious. :p

I would just like to register my undying adoration for Dennis Skinner. He refused to withdraw his characterization of Cameron as, "dodgy Dave" when asked to do so by the Speaker, and was then promptly ejected from the sitting. :cool:
Parliamentary language is magnificent.

'Half the cabinet are asses!'
'That is out of order, Mr. Disraeli. Withdraw that unparliamentary language at once.'
'I apologise and humbly withdraw that comment, Mr. Speaker. Half the cabinet are NOT asses.'
 
Re: Re:

Amsterhammer said:
Brullnux said:
I think Alpe will move this into the World Politics thread, but I'll contribute anyway.
I suspect the same. There have never been enough interested Brits around, and let's be honest, British politics aren't nearly as seedy and salacious. :p

I would just like to register my undying adoration for Dennis Skinner. He refused to withdraw his characterization of Cameron as, "dodgy Dave" when asked to do so by the Speaker, and was then promptly ejected from the sitting. :cool:
Nah come on, I love talking about politics. I'm a bit naive at times but hey
 
I think at issue is a while ago we agreed that there would be two primary threads, that's why all other threads in the past have been merged into those.

I'll let you guys have a final say or two on this topic before merging though. Have at it.
 
May 14, 2010
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Alpe d'Huez said:
I think at issue is a while ago we agreed that there would be two primary threads, that's why all other threads in the past have been merged into those.

I'll let you guys have a final say or two on this topic before merging though. Have at it.
Personally, I think British politics has plenty to recommend it as its own thread. All you have to do is read the British newspapers to get the hang of it, especially the Guardian. We have the endlessly entertaining Prime Minister's Questions in the House of Commons, the PM's liaison with a pig's head while in college, the red bra wearing, cocaine snorting lord in the House of Lords, and so on. Plus the delightful Blo-Jo or Flo-Jo or whatever his name is. :D It just never ends. Far more entertaining than US politics, arguably, outside of the presidential election, and the occasional "wide stance" fundamentalist conservative. Plus, we have the fact that this is a British site.
 
Mar 14, 2016
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Maxiton said:
Alpe d'Huez said:
I think at issue is a while ago we agreed that there would be two primary threads, that's why all other threads in the past have been merged into those.

I'll let you guys have a final say or two on this topic before merging though. Have at it.
Personally, I think British politics has plenty to recommend it as its own thread.
Agreed. Dividing politics into "US" and "Rest of the World" is way too US-centric for a British-based forum that attracts people from all over the world, including lots of folk from France, Belgium, the Netherlands, the UK, Italy, Spain, etc.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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CheckMyPecs said:
Maxiton said:
Alpe d'Huez said:
I think at issue is a while ago we agreed that there would be two primary threads, that's why all other threads in the past have been merged into those.

I'll let you guys have a final say or two on this topic before merging though. Have at it.
Personally, I think British politics has plenty to recommend it as its own thread.
Agreed. Dividing politics into "US" and "Rest of the World" is way too US-centric for a British-based forum that attracts people from all over the world, including lots of folk from France, Belgium, the Netherlands, the UK, Italy, Spain, etc.
Experience before and during the last presidential election showed that while Americans may be a minority of the total membership, we tend to be the most politically interested, and the most vociferous. You can see why splitting off US turned out to be a good move simply by how big the US topic has grown. Other nationalities represented on CN tend, on the whole, to be less political.
 
I'm not looking forward to this EU referendum. It hasn't been particularly pleasant with both sides using terrorist attacks for political motive and then blaming each other for doing exactly that. With the debates coming up, I do not expect it to get any better. It will be close, very close. Closer than last year's Scottish referendum. Right now a balance of poll show 50-50.

It's really interesting how party alliances mean so little in this election. If we take last year's GE, we see the Tories with 37% of the vote, Labour with 30%, UKIP with 13%,Liberals with 8%, SNP with 5 and Greens with 4%. All other parties were under 1, so no point including them. Liberals and Greens I expect all to go to Remain. Most of Labour will go to Remain, say 90% on a good day or 75% on a bad (from a Remain campaigner's PoV). SNP supporters will on the whole vote to stay, with 90-95% or so I imagine voting that way. UKIP will, unsurprisingly, all vote to Leave.

Here is where it is interesting: the Conservatives. The Cabinet is split, 7 members actively campaigning out, including Cameron's enemy IDS and Cameron's ally Gove. Perhaps most notably it includes BoJo, more on him later. Among the MPs, they are pretty evenly split, 160-130, with 30 or so undeclared. This leads you to imagine that among the grassroots, it is a similar story. No. In this article it shows that out of 72 councils contacted, 70 reported a Leave majority and 2 a Remain. Others didn't want to do a poll, and only 17 guessed a majority for Remain and half a dozen 50/50, which was what was expected. This shows a monumental split among the Tory party, akin to the PLP and grassroots Labour, and worse.

Estimates say Tory voters are split roughly 70/30, or 80/20 in some Conservative Home online polls. Compare this to the 60/40 split among MPs, or 75/25 among Cabinet members. This vote will be very hard to tell. The majority of grassroot Tories have had enough of Cameron and Osborne, only the staunchest Times/Telegraph readers remain, and most of the Telegraph want to Leave too. This represents a larger, potentially fatal wound for Osborne if he runs in 2020. Even if he wins the primary, many Tory voters will flock to UKIP (as we will probably have voted to Remain if Osborne has won) and because, of the system in the UK split the right-wing vote in many key constituencies, allowing an 'unelectable' and 'worthless' and 'inexistent' and 'inept' Labour to come into power. These adjectives only apply if you are Nick Cohen, the insufferable t*at who rites columns in the Observer, and gets hated on and corrected by most readers.

Which brings us on to the media in this debate. The Guardian, FT, Times, Mirror and i are campaigning actively to Remain. A spread of left and centre-right (right if you consider the Times as what it has become right-wing, but I'll give them centre-right as they supported Blair 3 times, who was only centre), as is mirrored in the people and some of the MPs. The Daily Mail, Telegraph, Sun and Express are all actively campaigning to Leave. A concentration of right to extreme-right (Express/Daily Mail at times, i.e when Hopkins writes). Readership-wise, Leave wins. The Sun and Mail are the most read newspapers in the UK. Admittedly, the Sun and Telegraph editorial are more split than the other two. The Sun has gone from supporting Blair 3 times to a right wing hate-spewing newspapers like the Daily Mail, while before it was just tits really, but that is another matter. The BBC, usually so neutral, has shown support for Remain.

Frankie Boyle has noted "we are having a referendum on the EU jut to decide who is the leader of the Tory Party". This is an ongoing side-show; rather, the main show at times. If Remain wins 55/45 then Cameron stays, buoyantly. If Remain win by very little, then it is in the balance. I imagine he'll stay. If Leave win by little, then he'll do all he can to stay, but may have to end up leaving. If Leave wins 55/45, then 'Dodgy Dave' will be forced to resign, and Boris Johnson take over.

Johnson came out in mid-Febraury saying that he wanted to leave the EU. This was a solely ambition-fuelled move. He truly wishes to Remain, but he knows that if he comes out as being against, then whatever happens at the referendum he most likely will wrap up the Tory leadership election. Gideon and May have both come out as wanting to stay. He is the only one.

The Tory leadership sideshow is perhaps more interesting than the referendum itself, at times. For me at least, it is fun to watch them implode.
 
May 14, 2010
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Brullnux said:
Frankie Boyle has noted "we are having a referendum on the EU jut to decide who is the leader of the Tory Party". This is an ongoing side-show; rather, the main show at times. If Remain wins 55/45 then Cameron stays, buoyantly. If Remain win by very little, then it is in the balance. I imagine he'll stay. If Leave win by little, then he'll do all he can to stay, but may have to end up leaving. If Leave wins 55/45, then 'Dodgy Dave' will be forced to resign, and Boris Johnson take over.

Johnson came out in mid-Febraury saying that he wanted to leave the EU. This was a solely ambition-fuelled move. He truly wishes to Remain, but he knows that if he comes out as being against, then whatever happens at the referendum he most likely will wrap up the Tory leadership election. Gideon and May have both come out as wanting to stay. He is the only one.

The Tory leadership sideshow is perhaps more interesting than the referendum itself, at times. For me at least, it is fun to watch them implode.
So you think Boris will wrap up the leadership because he has taken a position that coincides with the views of the majority in his party? But if that's the case, why didn't every Tory leader do the same?
 
Because Osborne is genuinely pro-EU, and has campaigned too hard in the past on it to u-turn and destroy whatever shred of credibility he has left. Also, he is the legacy of Cameron, the closest ally. Backing will come from those in the Tory party who like Cameron. He was probably hoping for it not to be so split, or that the fantastically low turn-out rates at Tory primaries continue. 80,000 people voted in the London one, despite a city where over a million at least vote Tory.

May I'm not so sure. She was also very eurosceptic and it was a surprise to many, including me, that she came out supporting Remain. Perhaps she felt that the deal negotiated was good enough to sway Tory voters. But honestly, I'm not sure. Perhaps something happened in Tory HQ that meant she changed her mind.

BoJo announced if he wanted to leave not long after May announced she wanted to Remain. Coincidence? Probably not. Most political commentators agree that was the case with BoJo, especially among those I trust (not tabloid and left of the Times). He didn't help his cause by coming out a week later suggesting for two votes in case we vote to leave.
 
Feb 6, 2016
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Interestingly enough, there was an article in the Guardian (Maxiton's absolutely right, it's the best source of UK political news) recently about how Cameron's inner circle were embarking on Operation Save Dave if they lose by appointing key leavers to senior roles - BoJo to Foreign Secretary, Gove to Deputy Prime Minister (=meaningless non-job), etc. I think it's all a waste of time: Cameron has staked his reputation on winning this (after coming incredibly close to destroying the union), and giving Boris a big job will just make him seem more legitimate as a king across the water. I was previously convinced Osborne was the next leader, and to be honest I don't see anything to disabuse me of that notion - IDS has blown over, GO is ahead of the game on tax returns, he has a baffling reputation for competence - unless Leave wins, in which case the right wing will have captured the Conservative Party for good.
 
May 14, 2010
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Cannibal72 said:
Interestingly enough, there was an article in the Guardian (Maxiton's absolutely right, it's the best source of UK political news) recently about how Cameron's inner circle were embarking on Operation Save Dave if they lose by appointing key leavers to senior roles - BoJo to Foreign Secretary, Gove to Deputy Prime Minister (=meaningless non-job), etc. I think it's all a waste of time: Cameron has staked his reputation on winning this (after coming incredibly close to destroying the union), and giving Boris a big job will just make him seem more legitimate as a king across the water. I was previously convinced Osborne was the next leader, and to be honest I don't see anything to disabuse me of that notion - IDS has blown over, GO is ahead of the game on tax returns, he has a baffling reputation for competence - unless Leave wins, in which case the right wing will have captured the Conservative Party for good.
How do you rate Boris's chance of becoming PM? Don't you think he'd be far preferable to Gideon?
 
Feb 6, 2016
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Maxiton said:
Cannibal72 said:
Interestingly enough, there was an article in the Guardian (Maxiton's absolutely right, it's the best source of UK political news) recently about how Cameron's inner circle were embarking on Operation Save Dave if they lose by appointing key leavers to senior roles - BoJo to Foreign Secretary, Gove to Deputy Prime Minister (=meaningless non-job), etc. I think it's all a waste of time: Cameron has staked his reputation on winning this (after coming incredibly close to destroying the union), and giving Boris a big job will just make him seem more legitimate as a king across the water. I was previously convinced Osborne was the next leader, and to be honest I don't see anything to disabuse me of that notion - IDS has blown over, GO is ahead of the game on tax returns, he has a baffling reputation for competence - unless Leave wins, in which case the right wing will have captured the Conservative Party for good.
How do you rate Boris's chance of becoming PM? Don't you think he'd be far preferable to Gideon?
If leave wins, I rate his chances very, very highly. Michael Gove is an intriguing outside bet (well liked by the right wing of the party, but making a show of backtracking on the more revulsively authoritarian and unjust policies of his predecessor) who could very well make it, but Boris will still be the number one favourite. If leave loses, I think his career in national politics is almost over. Dave will magnanimously give him a major Cabinet role, but the significance of that changes when Dave's the one in the ascendancy. Theresa May is still not trusted by the right wing, not liked by the centrists, and not viewed as competent by anyone. Gideon's pretty much inevitable.

To quote Lindsey Graham, the choice between Gideon and Boris is like choosing between being shot and being poisoned. But Boris is a cypher whose whole public appeal is based on his farcical nature; he's no less committed to the aggressive entrenchment of inequality, and his record includes some startlingly unacceptable statements and policies. Osborne is at the very least known as a reasonably moderate figure notoriously responsive to public pressure. I honestly think he'd make a slightly better PM than Dave, at least in terms of wanting to appear to do the right thing, but obviously that's an incredibly low bar and he'd still be working behind the scenes to degrade our country. At least he's on the record wanting to help the North, though.
 
I'd prefer Cameron to Gideon to be honest. If never vote for either, mind.

Gideon is terrifically bad at maths, setting unreliable and unachievable targets on the deficit and thinking of making them by lowering taxes whilst cutting, cutting and cutting some more. Unfortunately, he's run out. If Gideon wins the leadership election then I reckon Corbyn has a good chance of winning the GE. Gideon isn't well liked at all among non-Tories, and not like by the right of his party. Could cause a split in the right vote.

Worth mentioning that people shouldn't compare Sanders with Corbyn. While both are self-styled Socialists, they are extremely different. Corbyn is much more interested in foreign policy and doesn't talk about banks and the city that much, unlike Bernie.
 
May 14, 2010
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Cannibal72 said:
Maxiton said:
Cannibal72 said:
Interestingly enough, there was an article in the Guardian (Maxiton's absolutely right, it's the best source of UK political news) recently about how Cameron's inner circle were embarking on Operation Save Dave if they lose by appointing key leavers to senior roles - BoJo to Foreign Secretary, Gove to Deputy Prime Minister (=meaningless non-job), etc. I think it's all a waste of time: Cameron has staked his reputation on winning this (after coming incredibly close to destroying the union), and giving Boris a big job will just make him seem more legitimate as a king across the water. I was previously convinced Osborne was the next leader, and to be honest I don't see anything to disabuse me of that notion - IDS has blown over, GO is ahead of the game on tax returns, he has a baffling reputation for competence - unless Leave wins, in which case the right wing will have captured the Conservative Party for good.
How do you rate Boris's chance of becoming PM? Don't you think he'd be far preferable to Gideon?
If leave wins, I rate his chances very, very highly. Michael Gove is an intriguing outside bet (well liked by the right wing of the party, but making a show of backtracking on the more revulsively authoritarian and unjust policies of his predecessor) who could very well make it, but Boris will still be the number one favourite. If leave loses, I think his career in national politics is almost over. Dave will magnanimously give him a major Cabinet role, but the significance of that changes when Dave's the one in the ascendancy. Theresa May is still not trusted by the right wing, not liked by the centrists, and not viewed as competent by anyone. Gideon's pretty much inevitable.

To quote Lindsey Graham, the choice between Gideon and Boris is like choosing between being shot and being poisoned. But Boris is a cypher whose whole public appeal is based on his farcical nature; he's no less committed to the aggressive entrenchment of inequality, and his record includes some startlingly unacceptable statements and policies. Osborne is at the very least known as a reasonably moderate figure notoriously responsive to public pressure. I honestly think he'd make a slightly better PM than Dave, at least in terms of wanting to appear to do the right thing, but obviously that's an incredibly low bar and he'd still be working behind the scenes to degrade our country. At least he's on the record wanting to help the North, though.
I find Boris's obvious intelligence and wit compelling. I tend to trust intelligence and wit. Osborne seems decidedly unbalanced - though in his own way a lot of fun.
 
Cannibal72 said:
Interestingly enough, there was an article in the Guardian (Maxiton's absolutely right, it's the best source of UK political news) recently about how Cameron's inner circle were embarking on Operation Save Dave if they lose by appointing key leavers to senior roles - BoJo to Foreign Secretary, Gove to Deputy Prime Minister (=meaningless non-job), etc. I think it's all a waste of time: Cameron has staked his reputation on winning this (after coming incredibly close to destroying the union), and giving Boris a big job will just make him seem more legitimate as a king across the water. I was previously convinced Osborne was the next leader, and to be honest I don't see anything to disabuse me of that notion - IDS has blown over, GO is ahead of the game on tax returns, he has a baffling reputation for competence - unless Leave wins, in which case the right wing will have captured the Conservative Party for good.
You can blame Dave (or Dodgy Dave if you like) for a lot of things but not nearly destroying the union

As an aside the best source of UK politcal news is behind a paywall, the guardian 30 years ago was a decent paper but it has been in decline for some time now relying on polemics for click bait, but as they say you get what you pay for :)
 

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