Re: Re:
macbindle said:
The Hitch said:
Robert5091 said:
Robert5091 said:
https://www.thenation.com/article/britain-brexit-crisis-eu/
Indeed, the government’s own reports show that every version of leaving the EU harms the UK economy; the differences are only ones of degree. Such damage will hit hardest exactly the section of the population least able to afford it.
So who exactly gains by Brexit?
Well the "Masters of the Universe" in the City, want Brexit to make bets come good.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-make-big-bets-against-post-brexit-uk-economy
A pair of hedge funds owned by prominent Brexit supporters have made significant bets against companies exposed to the British consumer including big high street names.
Odey Asset Management, part-owned by Crispin Odey, and Marshall Wace, part-owned by Sir Paul Marshall, have declared short positions against consumer-exposed companies, including retailers, estate agents and banks, equivalent to £149m and £572m respectively – as rising political uncertainty threatens the economy.
The retail sector is facing particular scrutiny from short sellers, who in effect wager significant sums on certain shares falling in value. Uncertainty among consumers, with the Brexit process reaching a crunch point, comes at a time when retailers are already struggling to adjust to the move from physical shops to online.
IIRC the City, the banks, the financial world, was all very anti Brexit, so your attempt to find the "rich bad guys vs good poor guys" narrative here, feels pretty ridiculous.
King Boonen said:
[quote="
Merckx index":11o8wx9o] Leave winning left the Government in an impossible position due to the amount of bollocks and lies told to the public by the leave campaign, effectively promising them something completely unachievable.
Lets address this claim, "leave only one because of lies". One hear's this a lot, still, even 2 years after the fact and its pretty incredible.
Every election since the history of elections has involved lies and people being lied too. Yet I never heard this complaint so much.
An
d i find it pretty pathetic, because it implies a) that you know why people voted the way they did, which is the kind of patronising elitism that has turned many away from the modern left. How do you know why people voted why they did. They clearly have vastly different attitudes and opinions to you. It fits so well with the main archetype that surrounded Brexit, which was the shock of the political class, at just how much they distanced themselves from the average person. Who they now portray as stupid.
Which makes sense as "leave only won because of lies" also of course implies b) that the people that voted for Brexit are stupid or at least enough of them are stupid to fall for the bad lies of the bad guys.
And worst of all it implies c) that your candidates don't lie, they are morally superior because your tribe is superior and the other tribe is evil. People seem to really believe that their side of this election was fair, or that when in the past their candidates won elections, they were good and above politics and moral but now the forces of Sauron have taken back politics.
I used to hear this argument, 2 years ago, from friends and relations in their early 20's, some of whom didnt even know what "MEP" stands for but they just knew that the bad guys were racists, old, cheated, lied etc.
But now we hear it increasingly from politicians or activists on forums and its silly.
Maybe leave won because that's simply what a majority of the people wanted?
Ah but then the world wouldn't be so conveniently black and white I guess
Several comments on this.
Firstly the remark about people turning away from "modern left" because they are patronising is irrelevant. The Remain campaign has nothing to do with the Left. It is a cross-party issue. This is why we are in political stasis.
We DO know who voted, which way they voted, and the reasons they gave. There are two comments to be made about this. Firstly there is a correlation between educational achievement and voting patterns. We know that Remain voters havs a higher level of education. There may be some truth in the accusation that Leave voters are thick!
However you are absolutely correct when you imply that telling Leave voters that they are stupid will not win them over. The problem for the Remain campaign is to promote a message that is stronger than the seductive and emotive lies and promises made to them by the fly-by-night charlatan politicians of Vote Leave.
Secondly, it is unequivocal that Leave voters based their votes on an unprovable hypothesis, namely that the UK would somehow be "better" out of the EU. "Better" has still not been defined by Leave voters or advocates.
Remain voters knew exactly what they were voting for, because they were voting for the status quo.
From what I can see of Leave voters reasoning, it is largely based on emotion rather than rational thought (hardly surprising given that they are less educated). We are still seeing these emotive arguments, even now..."the EU are taking the piss and trying to bully us etc. "
There is a contradiction at the heart of the Leave economic argument, that we will secure better trade deals outside of the EU. You cannot say this when we have favourable trading arrangements within the EU for trading with EU countries AND the majority of our trade is with EU members.
My view? I think Leave voters identified a legitimate grievance....but they are blaming it on the wrong people.
The huge irony is that it is EU law which helps prevent the less-advantaged members of UK society be exploited by employers in terms of wages, conditions, health and safety and environmental protection.[/quote]
I find your fetishization of education disturbing.
Do not confuse being educated with being right. Especially not in modern Britain where education just means - spent a few years partying at Uni. Especially since having an education is still to a large degree dictated by social class. And a degree in just about any subject classifies as "an education".
Nevermind its just one step removed from the authoritarian argument of - since the voters are stupid, lets just rule for them.
Now I do agree that certain "educated" people are the best candidates to make certain decisions, run companies, governments etc. But that's not all educated people. Id probably take 10 random working class lads, who had a work ethic instilled in them when they were young and have life experience, to run my local council over 10 random "educated" kids, knowing what kind of entitlement and arrogance the latter group may hold.
Have you even taken a look at whats going on in the universities recently, with the protests verging on violence against people being even allowed to speak, and extremists getting onto student bodies.
But even if educated people may know more about what the best decision is, you seem to forget that people vote for their own interest.
When "educated" voters vote for something its just as likely that they are voting for it because it will benefit their group, rather than because they are some benevolent warriors looking to help society.