Cadel Ponders Future While Preparing For Vuelta

[Echoes]

I feel this really depends on how you look at it. And what you personally view as more important. I feel if you look at it from a pure road racing prospective it's what you see as more important. Tdf and wc or 3 gts. In my opinion I like the Tdf/wc better as I feel it's more varied. More alround achievement. Out of curiosity how many people have achieved it? While currently there is another rider in the peloton who has achieved 3 gts. But I feel this is totally personal choice. Really close.

However if we look at it as a whole bike career it's cadel. Mountain biking. That just gives cadel the win. It's the same when you look at wiggins when you include his track career. People underrate it.

Good post.

And doesn't even really suit Nibali that much (at least on the current/recent course), that's got to count for something. That he can find a way to place in a race that isn't suited to him.

It shows he's got his limits. I've said enough times that I appreciate Nibali's effort to win classics, here, okay? I can't be accused of Nibali hate... People trashed me when I said that Sky's were stupid to chase him in the 2011 Lombardy while their leader couldn't finish it off. I know Nibali is muuuuch greater than Contador but he's no Evans. He knows what classics are but I have the feeling he'll always come short due to lack of explosiveness and lack of a sprint ... If he wins a classic, I'll revise my judgement but I don't feel he's got it in the bag.

Evans on the other hand, did win a major classic and on a fearsome route against all the top guns of the time ... And then you'll make fuss about podiums, blabla. What is a podium place? In the old days, only the winners got to the podium anyway. A 4th place isn't much worse than a 3rd place, okay? Cadel won the Worlds, that is all that matters. Did Nibali? Even drafting a car didn't help him.
and as Libertine showed, he has a better record in one-week stage races so far ...

He's a better rider. More allround, more talented and he achieved more, so far. In my opinion it's not even a matter for discussion.

 

[Netserk]

Good post.



It shows he's got his limits. I've said enough times that I appreciate Nibali's effort to win classics, here, okay? I can't be accused of Nibali hate... People trashed me when I said that Sky's were stupid to chase him in the 2011 Lombardy while their leader couldn't finish it off. I know Nibali is muuuuch greater than Contador but he's no Evans. He knows what classics are but I have the feeling he'll always come short due to lack of explosiveness and lack of a sprint ... If he wins a classic, I'll revise my judgement but I don't feel he's got it in the bag.

Evans on the other hand, did win a major classic and on a fearsome route against all the top guns of the time ... And then you'll make fuss about podiums, blabla. What is a podium place? In the old days, only the winners got to the podium anyway. A 4th place isn't much worse than a 3rd place, okay? Cadel won the Worlds, that is all that matters. Did Nibali? Even drafting a car didn't help him.
and as Libertine showed, he has a better record in one-week stage races so far ...

He's a better rider. More allround, more talented and he achieved more, so far. In my opinion it's not even a matter for discussion.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1549485#post1549485

 

[Red Rick]

Apart from the cobbles, each of the three things you mention is covered by my assessment under their respective pedigrees at the GTs (probably also to some degree in the classics as well).

However, I disagree with you on the descents. Cadel is clearly better. Anyone who has followed this sport will generally say this.

But in terms of the cobbles, one year's performance doesn't give Nibali the edge over Evans.



The thing is, and as you should appreciate in my argument, it wasn't necessarily about their results up until this point of time as you have to recognise that the difference in age will skew the comparison - it is whether in 5 years time that Nibali can continue to challenge in GTs as Evans has been able to or will, as I said above, will fall of the cliff like Basso has.



Did you bother to read it? I put the GTs in Nibali's favour (at this point in time though )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

 

[Afrank]

Good post.



It shows he's got his limits. I've said enough times that I appreciate Nibali's effort to win classics, here, okay? I can't be accused of Nibali hate... People trashed me when I said that Sky's were stupid to chase him in the 2011 Lombardy while their leader couldn't finish it off. I know Nibali is muuuuch greater than Contador but he's no Evans. He knows what classics are but I have the feeling he'll always come short due to lack of explosiveness and lack of a sprint ... If he wins a classic, I'll revise my judgement but I don't feel he's got it in the bag.

That's the main reason he doesn't have the classics results/wins and the reason Evans beats him in that category IMO. He's good enough to get away from a group and create gaps and breakaways, but he lacks the sprint to finish it off at the end. Meaning getting the wins in classics is going to be and has been harder for him.

I'd like to see him place a focus on classics that give him the best chance of coming into the finish solo. Like LBL, Lombardia, worlds on the off chance we got a hilly course like last year at some point. Will be interesting to see how the change to MSR's route for next year helps him as well.


Thought just occurred to me, his Italian championships win, shouldn't we count that as a classic results/win for him? (general question to all).

 

[Echoes]

By definition, the Italian championship is a national race with a national field, so no.

But we seem to have finally reached some kind of agreement, so I might stop here.

 

[The Hegelian]

The question of who has better palmares/who is "better" is a bit lame.

But I think it's interesting to contemplate their particular qualities, because they're both very admirable riders for quite different reasons:

Cadel - guts and tenacity. Nothing really came to him on a plate, took a very long time for the stars to align. It really looked like he'd be a nearly man. The transition from someone always cursed with bad luck/bad teams/bad days etc to a genuine champion was a beautiful sporting narrative. Post-Mendrisio he was a different rider.

Nibali - great panache and attacking verve. Always has a crack, and when it comes off it is glorious.

 

[The Hegelian]

And on the Nibali-classics question - if he's on the start line and in half decent form, I always consider him a good chance. It's principally an attitude; he just has "it" - that winning hunger-instinct that can't be taught and can't be accumulated in watts.

I reckon he'll land a few big one day wins in the next few years.....

 

[darwin553]

The question then is why not, and why did you make the bold statement that anyone who follows the sport would call Evans a better descender?

Because you rely on the last couple of years when it has been well established that since he has turned pro Evans is regarded as one of the best descenders around.

But if his record is already better than Evans', what does it matter if he can't sustain his form? Do you think Zoetemelk is a better rider than Merckx because he had more longevity?


I don't understand.

It is difficult to convince someone that has no foresight. That only likes to live in the present. I think it is doing a great disservice to Evans and what he has achieved to compare his achievements with that of Nibali given that there is so much more to play out in Nibali's career - whether good or bad

And you will be willing to say Evans is the better GT rider - not just in your personal opinion but in general popular regard - even if Nibali adds more podiums in the next couple of years then drops away completely, on the basis that Evans could still come 8th in a GT at 37?

This makes literally no sense.

It makes perfect sense as you say - if Nibali gets one or two more podiums in the next couple of years but doesn't win another GT due to the likes of Froome, Contador or Quintana dominating and then falls away such as Basso and Schleck have done, then the career of Cadel whose greater competitiveness at GTs and better record at the one day classics/classic races at an older age starts to come into play in judging who has been the better rider.

What difference does the age they get the results at count? After all, yes you can argue if Nibali falls away that he had all his best results early and didn't have the longevity of Evans, but you could just as equally argue that Evans didn't start hitting the big time palmarès-wise until he was 30, at which point Nibali had already accumulated the palmarès of a great.

Long live andy schleck

 

[The Hitch]

This happens in almost every evans discussion that fans start listing qualities such as guts or courage in his favour as if it wasn't the case that every other rider was fighting through pain as well.

Just because you were only looking at him doesn't mean everyone else wasn't fighting through Hell too

 

[cineteq]

It is difficult to convince someone that has no foresight. That only likes to live in the present. I think it is doing a great disservice to Evans and what he has achieved to compare his achievements with that of Nibali given that there is so much more to play out in Nibali's career - whether good or bad

Even auscyclefan94 will have better arguments than you do.

Cadel - guts and tenacity. Nothing really came to him on a plate, took a very long time for the stars to align. It really looked like he'd be a nearly man. The transition from someone always cursed with bad luck/bad teams/bad days etc to a genuine champion was a beautiful sporting narrative. Post-Mendrisio he was a different rider.

Nibali - great panache and attacking verve. Always has a crack, and when it comes off it is glorious.

+1
Fair, and quick analysis. I subscribe!
Can we close this thread now?

 

[Angliru]

Because you rely on the last couple of years when it has been well established that since he has turned pro Evans is regarded as one of the best descenders around.

But so is Nibali so how does that make Evans the undisputable best at that discipline? It's argued just the same that Nibali is one of, if not the best

It is difficult to convince someone that has no foresight. That only likes to live in the present. I think it is doing a great disservice to Evans and what he has achieved to compare his achievements with that of Nibali given that there is so much more to play out in Nibali's career - whether good or bad

With Nibali's palmares rivaling and arguably exceeding Evans results I'm at a loss at what point you're making here.

It makes perfect sense as you say - if Nibali gets one or two more podiums in the next couple of years but doesn't win another GT due to the likes of Froome, Contador or Quintana dominating and then falls away such as Basso and Schleck have done, then the career of Cadel whose greater competitiveness at GTs and better record at the one day classics/classic races at an older age starts to come into play in judging who has been the better rider.

Same as above, with Evans likely to retire after this year, his results at this point only equal to Nibali's and you conceding that Nibali could potentially add to his already impressive record, you seem to be disproving your own argument.

My responses in bold print.