California Becomes War of Words

[Caruut]

I don't think you can stop there, fill in the blanks on who gives a believable performance.
All I am saying is Levi has great results, or non results, skewed as they may be, either way.

Remember also the teams Chris has ridden for also.

I think someone who rides 20th to 10th place is likely cleaner in the tour, however Saunier Duval....hmmmm...

Yes, but you said we ought to factor in how doping skewed Levi's results. I'm saying that, given his team history, it is a little presumptuous to suggest that his results have been worse than they would in a clean peloton.

 

[montagna lunga]

The only war of words is between the forum's self-impressed fan-boys
and haters, this is a silly trashy thread prompted into existence by a goofy no-substance article, why dontcha go ride some miles boys,
some of us still wish we could!

 

[BroDeal]

The only war of words is between the forum's self-impressed fan-boys
and haters, this is a silly trashy thread prompted into existence by a goofy no-substance article, why dontcha go ride some miles boys,
some of us still wish we could!

Sanctimonious haters like you should take their own advice and not read threads that will upset them.

 

[montagna lunga]

Sanctimonious haters like you should take their own advice and not read threads that will upset them.

hahahaha, od'ed on piety pills I see? Get real

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

While I am no fan of Levi, I can say that the guy works hard. He is very disciplined.

I agree with BroDeal about Horner. Class act and far more talented cyclist than Leipheimer.

 

[benpounder]

Levi's palmarès is okay, I suppose, but he's never won an event which top riders actually peak for. I still don't see why I should like him based on his palmarès though, and if I were to, there are many riders more worthy of my support.

Lance Armstrong was a great cyclist. But I dated a girl who raced along side him in the Texas jr-triatholon series. Her recollections led me to believe that he was, and still is, a champion jerk. I have long since stopped trying to dissuade the dislike for Levi here. But I will not stop trying to get people to separate their visceral dislikes from honest assessments of a cyclists' accomplishments.

Just to be certain you understand the distinction, I dislike Di Luca, M Rasmussen, and Vino and seriously dislike Ricco, but I will admit that all were damn strong cyclists with some fairly impressive results.

 

[Caruut]

Lance Armstrong was a great cyclist. But I dated a girl who raced along side him in the Texas jr-triatholon series. Her recollections led me to believe that he was, and still is, a champion jerk. I have long since stopped trying to dissuade the dislike for Levi here. But I will not stop trying to get people to separate their visceral dislikes from honest assessments of a cyclists' accomplishments.

Just to be certain you understand the distinction, I dislike Di Luca, M Rasmussen, and Vino and seriously dislike Ricco, but I will admit that all were damn strong cyclists with some fairly impressive results.

Lance seems like a prime jerk, I agree, and I have no reason to assume Levi isn't a nice guy. Plenty of nice people sometimes get annoyed when they miss out on something they think is rightfully theirs. I actually think that cycling needs Levis. Ultimately, the attacking riders have to have someone to attack.

He is that foil. I genuinely don't think that his record is as impressive as the hype around him might suggest it should be. He places well a lot of the time, but outside of the US races, he very rarely wins apart from in TTs.

 

[benpounder]

How different would Levi's palmarès be if you factor in PED use.

I think the accusation is not that Levi is squeaky clean, rather that the peloton was far from clean.

As for you what you think us Yanks want others to think of how good some of our cyclists are, dont be silly. Everyone here has a local favorite that they like to talk up - it is not just Americans.

 

[Caruut]

I think the accusation is not that Levi is squeaky clean, rather that the peloton was far from clean.

As for you what you think us Yanks want others to think of how good some of our cyclists are, dont be silly. Everyone here has a local favorite that they like to talk up - it is not just Americans.

Well, yes, but the guy suggested that PED use was factored into how Levi's results look, and I felt the implication was that Levi was cheated out on some results. As it is, I would say that assuming he is about average would be fair, so it's about even.

Aye, I know, but when people suggested that they had no particular reason to like Levi, some came back with his all-time place in US cycling history. I can see why that means something to you guys, just like Cav's place as possibly the best ever British rider means something to me.

 

[benpounder]

Aye, I know, but when people suggested that they had no particular reason to like Levi, some came [I think that was me] back with his all-time place in US cycling history. I can see why that means something to you guys, just like Cav's place as possibly the best ever British rider means something to me.

Actually what I said what that behind Armstrong and Lemond, Leipheimer has the best overall results. We can argue that Hampsten's 1988 Giro win is more impressive, or that... well no, both Hamilton and Landis were stripped of their crowning achievements.

 

[Caruut]

Based on results, I suppose he is 4th ever in America? Hampsten's Giro is miles better than any race Levi has one.

 

[Nick C.]

Hampsten also has one or more Tour de Suisse wins along with an Alpe D'Huez stage and two 4ths in the Tour. Levi in Europe has Suisse, Dsuphine, Vuelta and TDF podiums along with TT win or two in same.

 

[benpounder]

Based on results, I suppose he is 4th ever in America? Hampsten's Giro is miles better than any race Levi has one.

As I said, it is debatable. Here are Levi and Andy's GT record:

I admit, Andy's 1988 Giro win is huge, as is his podium the following year. But you have to acknowledge that Levi's record in GTs is impressive. One more GT podium - and without time bonuses, he would have tied Alberto Contador at top spot in the 2008 Vuelta.

But my arguement goes beyond GTs. Both have won the TdSuisse (Andy twice), Levi won the Dauphiné Libéré (2006), Andy won the Tour de Romandie (1992), Levi won the ToC three times, Andy won the Tour of Galicia (1993), and the Subida a Urkiola twice (89&90), Levi won the Route du Sud (2002), the Deutschland Tour (2005), the 2007 US National Road championship, the Vuelta a Castilla y León (2009), the Tour of the Gila (2010), the Tour of Utah (2010&2011), and the 2011 USA Pro Cycling Challenge.

I will probably not be able to convince you, yet you have to admit that Levi's total results are equally impressive.

[edited for clarity - I ought to use the preview panel more...]

 

[benpounder]

And to get back on topic, I think Chris Horner is just as strong an overall major and grand tour contender - better at attacking (or counter-attacking) in the mountains, but worse against the clock than Levi. I think this spat between the two is primarily media generated. However, I do think Horner is less than happy with the direction Bruyneel has taken Radio Shack since the merger with Leopold.

 

[ultimobici]

To rate LL on a par with, let alone above, Hampsten is laughable. LL took several years to win anything of significance. I'm sorry, Redlands doesn't count, his first win of any relevance was 2002's Route du Sud. By contrast Hampsten won a stage of the Giro in his first year in Europe as well as making the top 20. As a result he was headhunted by La Vie Claire and repaid them by winning the Tour de Suisse in 86, as well as coming 4th in the Tour while riding support to Hinault and Lemond. 2 stages and the overall of the 88 Giro frankly trump any podiums LL has managed to scramble onto, IMO. Without wishing to stray too close to the Clinic, LL has a few issues in his past both personal and team related which Hampsten has none of. Case closed.

 

[montagna lunga]

Without wishing to stray too close to the Clinic...

You do anyways. Utter crap

 

[Caruut]

You do anyways. Utter crap

Post of the year!

 

[ultimobici]

You do anyways. Utter crap

Do what? Clinic aside, LL hasn't the palmares of Hampsten by simple virtue of no GT wins at all. Simple.

 

[rzombie1988]

As I said, it is debatable. Here are Levi and Andy's GT record:

I admit, Andy's 1988 Giro win is huge, as is his podium the following year. But you have to acknowledge that Levi's record in GTs is impressive. One more GT podium - and without time bonuses, he would have tied Alberto Contador at top spot in the 2008 Vuelta.

But my arguement goes beyond GTs. Both have won the TdSuisse (Andy twice), Levi won the Dauphiné Libéré (2006), Andy won the Tour de Romandie (1992), Levi won the ToC three times, Andy won the Tour of Galicia (1993), and the Subida a Urkiola twice (89&90), Levi won the Route du Sud (2002), the Deutschland Tour (2005), the 2007 US National Road championship, the Vuelta a Castilla y León (2009), the Tour of the Gila (2010), the Tour of Utah (2010&2011), and the 2011 USA Pro Cycling Challenge.

I will probably not be able to convince you, yet you have to admit that Levi's total results are equally impressive.

[edited for clarity - I ought to use the preview panel more...]

I made the Hampstein timeline, along with probably 90% of the other GT timelines Nice to see my work is being seen

 

[SHAD0W93]

I made the Hampstein timeline, along with probably 90% of the other GT timelines Nice to see my work is being seen

Let me applaud you on your work. I always wondered who made those and how they did it.

 

[rzombie1988]

Let me applaud you on your work. I always wondered who made those and how they did it.

It's honestly really simple to make. Once you have the formula, you just plug in the numbers. Feel free to give it a shot! I thought they were the coolest things I had seen cycling wise in a while. I was able to get all of the Giro winners down last week(After about 1930) and once I get a little more time, I might go for all of the Vuelta winners as well. The hardest part is getting the information since I have to use the wayback machine to get some of it.

 

[Caruut]

They're great on stage racers, but always look a bit out of place on the classics guys and sprinters pages.

 

[Christian Schneider]

war?

if there is a "war" they aren't settling it with their legs.
most passive 'race' ever

 

[Anonymous]

if there is a "war" they aren't settling it with their legs.
most passive 'race' ever

Perhaps... But in all fairness there has been nothing selective just yet. Tomorrow and Saturday are the race.

 

[CobbleStoner]

actually I do know who Steve Bauer is...and he was great...You must know Levi personally eh? How do you know what kind of teammate he is? Personal grudge...I'm just saying give credit where it is due. Levi is at least as good as Bauer was...a step below Hampsten...the rest of your list don't cut it. Grewal winning the gold medal was nice...but no staying power. Funny, there are other North American riders like LeMond, Boyer, heck even Phinney the elder who are better than Grewal or Howard or Alcala. By the way...there are a lot of races that are not world championships or grand tours!

Please tell us how you know so well what kind of teammate Levi is?

too funny, John Howard doesn't cut it. Bauer was much more feared in the peloton than LL, nobody fears Levi, except in a TT, and if you can't tell that Levi isn't always the best teammate, then you don't follow cycling too closely. of course LeMond is better, he is #1, Armstrong #2. Boyer and Phinney did not make my list because I think LL is a better rider than them. I have raced against Davis, Alexi, and Raul, and I could hang with Phinney, but not the other two.
I am all about the Classics and track, not so much the tours. (probably why I rate LeMond over Lance, and Levi so low)