Cameras lingering on the aftermath of accidents: Informative and Reassuring, or Tasteless and Unnecessary?

[awavey]

Disgusting to hear that news organisations were hassling his partner (now wife) for updates while his condition was unknown (including to her)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1775995473305772094

View: https://twitter.com/HansenAdam/status/1775995473305772094

I'm not necessarily given to agreeing with Hansen, but it does seem a very basic expectation that teams have NoK's details available and keep them abreast ahead of media.

its very difficult in the moment to guarantee that they could, the pictures are instant arent they, the person with the phone numbers and the phone isnt going to be able to instantly contact everyone that needs to know something, even if they know anything to share in the first place with them, which is unlikely to be more than we'll call you back later when we learn abit more.

there might be some bone fractures that wont show up till much later when the swelling goes down, it took 2-3 days for them to confirm CUL had broken a bone, best part of 8 hours that Lizzie D had broken her arm, and not just had concussion protocol, but everyone knew instantly from the pictures those two riders were in the grand scheme of things hurt, but overall ok.

I mean think back to the 2016 olympic road race, did not knowing if Avv was still face down in a concrete gutter and even receiving any treatment a good thing or a bad thing ?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

its very difficult in the moment to guarantee that they could, the pictures are instant arent they, the person with the phone numbers and the phone isnt going to be able to instantly contact everyone that needs to know something, even if they know anything to share in the first place with them, which is unlikely to be more than we'll call you back later when we learn abit more.

there might be some bone fractures that wont show up till much later when the swelling goes down, it took 2-3 days for them to confirm CUL had broken a bone, best part of 8 hours that Lizzie D had broken her arm, and not just had concussion protocol, but everyone knew instantly from the pictures those two riders were in the grand scheme of things hurt, but overall ok.

I mean think back to the 2016 olympic road race, did not knowing if Avv was still face down in a concrete gutter and even receiving any treatment a good thing or a bad thing ?

Is he breathing? Is he conscious? Can he speak rationally? I think that's what the NoK wants to know (and communicate to other family members) first rather than whether a bone is broken. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone in the team car to be told those things pretty much straight away.

 

[awavey]

It's a difficult discussion and I don't think there is a right answer, but I would say for me the insensitive bit kicks in when the filming seems more for kicks/drama than care or interest in the rider's condition. If it begins to feel gratuitous, basically.

There's no rule for that when that might be, though, so it will be up for each broadcaster/director/cameraman in each specific situation. I very much understand that seeing someone conscious and well after a bad crash can be a relief, but I also felt today's filming was a bit excessive.

you cant blame the cameraman, theyre there to document whats happening and have no control over whats broadcast unless they point the camera at their feet, but such visual records may ultimately be of some use in all manner of ways that at the moment of the crash and its aftermath they dont know about yet.

its really down to the director to pick which shots to use and which replays to show for the broadcast feed, and then ultimately the broadcaster producer relaying the feed, who isnt forced to keep showing footage they arent comfortable with airing, just as Discovery havent put the highlights package up yet, they could have dropped to adverts (I know abit harder on a streaming service) or picked the moment to replay an earlier stage or dropped in one of their tiktok style top 10 fillers, but maybe not the crash one.

they werent forced to show it, something theyve been doing lately with Alpine Skiing, which also had alot of major crashes involving major competitors, they dont replay the crash till the medics confirm the skier is ok, and there are no close ups of them dealing with it, more often than not Eurosport dump to ads, the broadcaster just shows scenes of mountains and non injured skiers standing around waiting for news and or replays from earlier.

 

[Carols]

discovery/max not putting up the replay is ridiculous. there was still a race, nobody is even seriously injured. it feels like such an overreaction. are they gonna censor every race that has a big crash now?

I just found out there was no replay, That is so Ridiculous! People can make their own decision to watch or Not watch. That is our choice Not theirs!

 

[awavey]

Is he breathing? Is he conscious? Can he speak rationally? I think that's what the NoK wants to know (and communicate to other family members) first rather than whether a bone is broken. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone in the team car to be told those things pretty much straight away.

priority 1 is assessing and treating the rider, communicating with other people, unless their medical evac people or people who can provide medical aid and immediate assistance, is not a priority, even with team cars or close family about a riders current condition and certainly would take away from focus on dealing with the rider.

and tbh people can be breathing/concious after a crash, and die from their injuries later, slip into comas, especially with bleeds on the brain, so its not even that useful a checklist to have

plus who carries the phone, which part of the team convoy does it travel in, which riders family is called first, who makes that call, what happens when youve got no signal ?

treat the riders injuries as a priority, I dont want to see people faffing around getting in the way trying to contact relatives relaying potentially duff information to them.

 

[VeloMaster]

The forum is understandably divided on the broadcast images of injured riders, so here is a strictly personal take. Your mileage will certainly differ.

The continued footage of riders in deep distress, some for a time not moving, did indeed spark a PTSD moment, dating back almost 10 years. That’s when a gravel truck knocked me off my TT bike during a hard training ride, and I only regained consciousness hours later in the ICU.

With tears starting to fill my eyes, I switched off the feed and went to sit in the sun with the dog. Yes, we occasionally get sunshine in April here in British Columbia. I almost called off my training ride but in the end went out — and was glad I did.

It took me almost 2 years of rehab, family support, and hard work to get back to riding again. I never went back to mass start road events but lately have taken up training and racing at the velodrome. If you squint at my forum avatar, you’ll see me with one of two bronze medals at the 2024 Canadian Masters Track Nationals.

My point, besides wanting to get that off my chest, is that we each have our own way of handling something like today’s incident and the media images and reports it invariably engendered. This was mine.

 

[noob]

The forum is understandably divided on the broadcast images of injured riders, so here is a strictly personal take. Your mileage will certainly differ.

The continued footage of riders in deep distress, some for a time not moving, did indeed spark a PTSD moment, dating back almost 10 years. That’s when a gravel truck knocked me off my TT bike during a hard training ride, and I only regained consciousness hours later in the ICU.

With tears starting to fill my eyes, I switched off the feed and went to sit in the sun with the dog. Yes, we occasionally get sunshine in April here in British Columbia. I almost called off my training ride but in the end went out — and was glad I did.

It took me almost 2 years of rehab, family support, and hard work to get back to riding again. I never went back to mass start road events but lately have taken up training and racing at the velodrome. If you squint at my forum avatar, you’ll see me with one of two bronze medals at the 2024 Canadian Masters Track Nationals.

My point, besides wanting to get that off my chest, is that we each have our own way of handling something like today’s incident and the media images and reports it invariably engendered. This was mine.

Thank you so much for sharing! ❤️

(I wish the forum had a ❤️ reaction so that I wouldn't have to use this enthusiastic or the sad one to show empathy/care. (Oh and that mdma ptsd therapy was legal as ptsd is very real)) ❤️

 

[Unchained]

So the great summary is that no rider involved in the accident is in unstable condition, all are alert and able to speak and move under their own power. Seems universal that is ultimately what all watching want.

Chris Horner, a rider I am semi familiar with, has crashed more times than anyone can count including himself. He posted a short video on YouTube about the sentiments of his wife, about repeatedly showing crash footage, to the point of cruelty, immorality and criminal levels according to thousands. She has a slightly different perspective told by her now bubbling husband who knows everything about bike racing. Including what it's like to have your family and friends watch you get put into an ambulance in a rag doll state and their sense of despair and helplessness as someone they love and care about gets carted off.
So my own opinion, very very insignificant, but it's that more than one thing can be true at a time. So for all the people wanting TV execs to be fired..Mrs. Horner has a counter point about the usefulness of information, even bad information. Worth a look in my opinion. Horner could easily make a series of videos on crashing, types of crashes and why..and more than one time.. Crashes just happen is a reality

I only write this because of what happened last weekend here ..details in the Emma thread about getting crashed..
I am particularly sensitive because when I see high and low speed, complicated and routine tip overs, they can always end in serious injury or death, so you know it's absolutely arbitrary and luck what the outcome is..
So while I was watching I couldn't think or breathe well fearing the worst, Felt sick to my stomach ..I have never been happier to be completely wrong, overly emotional.
Horner and his family know people in current day peloton so he is not talking in theory, he has lived it.

 

[saunaking]

I just think this fake outrage for the riders families is ridiculous virtue signalling.
Guarantee that if you see a loved one in distress on tv/video you keep watching to see what happens.
If I am wrong, how about turn off the tv. How hard is that??

Its been made clear by many professionals already today that many family members WANT TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING.

Besides, Horner has spoken. Case closed.

 

[proffate]

discovery/max not putting up the replay is ridiculous. there was still a race, nobody is even seriously injured. it feels like such an overreaction. are they gonna censor every race that has a big crash now?

I was in the middle of streaming it on an ~hour delay and I tried to switch from my TV to my phone for the breakaway battle only to find it was no longer available ...

Tbh the entire thing was overblown given the injuries we ultimately witnessed. The only reason it was made into a big deal is because of who went down, because Vingegaard was pretending to be paralyzed, and perhaps due to some PTSD from Gino Mader. Roglic doesn't even have a good excuse for ending his race afaict.

 

[RedheadDane]

plus who carries the phone, which part of the team convoy does it travel in, which riders family is called first, who makes that call, what happens when youve got no signal ?

Pretty sure multiple staff members on a team can carry phones.

I was convinced every member of this forum watches every race.

Clearly not.

According to Sporza Vingegaard discussed this specific descent with SafeCycling. The organizers just never responded and listened to SafeCycling. Reason to lose your WT status imo.

I suspect it's the same article that's on the TV2 homepage.
They even specifically mentions that concrete ditch.

 

[Rackham]

Chris Horner also chiming in

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYwqnq6nQvU

The difference between both viewpoints (i.e. those who're for live footage of a crash aftermath versus those who're against) is the fact people who want the images (& when it comes to families or friends quite frankly need to see what's going on) don't have another option if someone censors the broadcast (& no, picking up a phone & "calling" someone on the team is not a solution or alternative, i.e. riders have a lot of people 'concerned' about their wellbeing & not everyone can be calling the team doctor at the same time or get info immediately), whereas the people who demand a ban on such images have another option: walk away from the screen or turn it off. Simple.

I also really have an aversion to a certain holier than thou aspect of the conversation particularly present in the anti crowd who seem to think they're morally better for wanting to block the footage. This is of course not unusual or unique to this topic, i.e. it's just a facet of current year debates, aka to win an argument it's now the 'norm' to insert moral righteousness to deflect & shut down any valid counter arguments.

All I can say is as a Rog fan, I appreciated the fact I saw him remove his helmet, gloves, limp away & then give a thumbs up & wave from the car. I also saw Evenepoel walk back to the roadside with a bloodied arm as well. If the footage had been blocked, I would have endured an exercise in frustration navigating through hours of contradictory Tweets & posts online without knowing what the hell was happening. So I thank the Spanish broadcaster for that.

 

[Stasat]

Chris Horner also chiming in

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYwqnq6nQvU

And Arensman's father.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1775906911134663082

View: https://x.com/mwarensman/status/1775906911134663082

 

[RedheadDane]

First of all, I'll admit that I didn't actually watch the stage yesterday - shocking, I know! I had a family obligation - I was keeping an eye on the liveupdate, then I ended up reading for my nephew for a while, and the next thing I knew... everyone had crashed. So, I don't actually have the experience of watching the footage live.

I suspect some of the initial "they shouldn't have shown it!" reactions were just that; initial knee-jerk reactions, made by people still reeling from the shock. But now, that a bit of time has passed, and with it becoming clear that all the involved riders were, if not okay-okay, then at least okay-ish, it might be that in this case, showing the images were fine. (Sorry, I can't seem to construct a sentence in English...)

 

[tobydawq]

First of all, I'll admit that I didn't actually watch the stage yesterday - shocking, I know! I had a family obligation - I was keeping an eye on the liveupdate, then I ended up reading for my nephew for a while, and the next thing I knew... everyone had crashed. So, I don't actually have the experience of watching the footage live.

I suspect some of the initial "they shouldn't have shown it!" reactions were just that; initial knee-jerk reactions, made by people still reeling from the shock. But now, that a bit of time has passed, and with it becoming clear that all the involved riders were, if not okay-okay, then at least okay-ish, it might be that in this case, showing the images were fine. (Sorry, I can't seem to construct a sentence in English...)

The unconventional thing was how they kept filming the scene of the crash where Vingegaard was attended almost immediately but Cras and Vine just lay there like two corpses, ignored by everyone. Then eventually they did get help too, but we kept seeing riders (mostly Vingegaard) being put on stretchers and lifted into the ambulances, interspersed with slow motions of the same images with a little music as accompaniment.

I don't think showing the crashes is problematic but yeah, I guess I don't see why it was necessary to keep showing the riders until they were inside the ambulances.

However, it was - as I recall - only heli shots of that part, so at least it didn't feel too much like an intrusion of private life. And I guess it is reassuring to see the riders being able to move. For example, it felt a bit redundant when news broke that Frans Maassen had told that Vingegaard was conscious considering we had been able to watch him gesticulate.... But maybe a fine line would be to cut away as soon as we've seen them move.

The music was idiotic, though.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

priority 1 is assessing and treating the rider, communicating with other people, unless their medical evac people or people who can provide medical aid and immediate assistance, is not a priority, even with team cars or close family about a riders current condition and certainly would take away from focus on dealing with the rider.

and tbh people can be breathing/concious after a crash, and die from their injuries later, slip into comas, especially with bleeds on the brain, so its not even that useful a checklist to have

plus who carries the phone, which part of the team convoy does it travel in, which riders family is called first, who makes that call, what happens when youve got no signal ?

treat the riders injuries as a priority, I dont want to see people faffing around getting in the way trying to contact relatives relaying potentially duff information to them.

Who would have thought that the proposal that an employer brings to a potentially dangerous worksite the contact details of next of kin of their employees would be controversial?

 

[awavey]

Who would have thought that the proposal that an employer brings to a potentially dangerous worksite the contact details of next of kin of their employees would be controversial?

And yet Vingegaards injuries were worse on closer medical examination than the immediate assessment and next of kin contact would have informed them of.

I don't think it's controversial I just think it's an over reaction

before long someone will suggest the riders HRM data should be sent to next of kin as well so they know instantly theyre still alive anywhere in the world at all times, and with head unit crash detection systems it can automatically contact them...

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

And yet Vingegaards injuries were worse on closer medical examination than the immediate assessment and next of kin contact would have informed them of.

I don't think it's controversial I just think it's an over reaction

before long someone will suggest the riders HRM data should be sent to next of kin as well so they know instantly theyre still alive anywhere in the world at all times, and with head unit crash detection systems it can automatically contact them...

Is it actually your contention that teams should not communicate with the next of kin of riders who have had accidents? That there should be no attempt to keep them abreast of the situation with details that are not yet in the public forum?

 

[ashhutch1997]

Discovery plus still haven't put yesterday's stage on to watch....... Although it was a really bad crash, I think they are overreacting a little bit now....

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I have moved all the above from the Itzulia 2024 thread, to disentagle this issue from others there and provide space for ongoing discussion. I hope I have not made either thread more difficult to follow.

 

[Izzyeviel]

The cameras should film the aftermath of the crash...whether or not the tv director shows it is another thing. I'm always reminded of the death of Daijiro Kato in Moto GP. We're not sure if the crash killed him or if the marshals 'handling' of him killed him. In the event of the worst happening it'd be good to have a record of what how the rider was treated - a) we can learn from it, & b) help the friends & family sue the race organisers.

But for the life of me I don't why the riders haven't come up with some sort of hand signal they can do in front of the camera to let the world know they're ok & for the camera man to stop filming them.

 

[RedheadDane]

But for the life of me I don't why the riders haven't come up with some sort of hand signal they can do in front of the camera to let the world know they're ok & for the camera man to stop filming them.

Unfortunately, it's often when a rider can't do any sort of hand signal the camera people really need to stop filming.

 

[benzwire]

Unfortunately, it's often when a rider can't do any sort of hand signal the camera people really need to stop filming.

If Jonas had somehow given a "thumbs up" while lying there I doubt the camera people would have stopped. They would probably be more inclined to film now knowing he was not in mortal danger.
The one thing I really hated about yesterday's coverage was they replayed the crash so many times. It almost seemed like crash porn. It was too much.

 

[Izzyeviel]

well thats the point, it should be the signal to the cameraman to stop filming. But yes, it should be like motor racing, they get out of the car after a crash, you show the replay. Until that happens, no replays.

 

[kingjr]

I appreciate the helicopter shots, because that way I can get a fairly good idea of the state everybody involved is in. Yesterday, for instance, I was doing something else when the crash happened, when I returned I just saw Vingegaard wrapped up in bandages being carried into an ambulance. When I looked at the footage of the crash, it was reassuring to see that Vingegaard, while clearly in agony, didn't seem unconscious at any point, and was moving and communicating with the doctors. And that didn't require the camera zooming in on him, either, which was the mistake that was made in Weylandt's case.