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Can you match road intensities on the trainer?

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Mar 12, 2009
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FWIW I use a Tacx Fortious trainer which, amongst other things, has the ability to use "real video" ( a video of a given course) and Catalyst which can set to various wattage levels, gradients etc.

Never had a problem hitting the right HR or, more importantly, watts. Perhaps the visual stimulus helps but unlikey, I am usually face down begging for mercy ;)
 
Mar 11, 2009
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I find standing up on my trainer while pushing a really hard gear at about 70 to 80 RPMs tends to spike my HR pretty quickly. I can get close to max by doing this after I've warmed up for a bit.
 
biker77 said:
Arrogant. Put some power data on your graph and then we can have a discussion.
can't say I can recreate those specific charts with power data but here's a session a client did the other day on my ergo bike. Some 15-min TT efforts then some harder 4-min efforts. The shorter ones were a little erratic as the rider got used to the high inertial load of my ergo bike but pretty much the same HR pattern as I have already shown. In particular note the HR drift for the TT efforts and the time it takes for HR to catch up to the intensity (power) at which you are riding.

2009-08-23_TTI-API.jpg



And for very short hard efforts, e.g. 30-second on/off lactate tolerance work (Level 6), HR response is simply far too slow to be of any value as a guide. See here for an example (from a different rider). See how the HR barely moves compared to power.

2009-08-23_LTI.jpg



and just for fun, here's a chart for a rider who got their HR up quickly into "zone" (i.e. threshold) and held it there steadily while riding the track. Check out what power was required to do that - An initial go too hard and then a gradual fade, which is pretty typical time trial mistake that lots of novice (and many experienced) riders make.

I also show speed on this one as it emphasises the poor pacing that results from relying on a steady HR as one's guide.

2009-08-23_TT-1.jpg



Now what are we debating again?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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I too think it's a mental barrier as I've never had a problem getting to my Max HR on the trainer. On the contrary, I often get to my Max HR quicker especially if I don't have the fan on. Remember that you're not getting the same cooling effects of the wind when outdoor training.
 
unsheath said:
whoa!! Industrial strength!! Love it..
Most vastly underestimate the cooling requirement when training indoors. Since putting this puppy to work, my power went up overnight when training indoors. They are not that expensive either, this was ~ A$210 new. OK so it sounds like a Fokker taking off but I don't give a hoot, the ipod is in my ears anyway :p
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
Most vastly underestimate the cooling requirement when training indoors. Since putting this puppy to work, my power went up overnight when training indoors. They are not that expensive either, this was ~ A$210 new. OK so it sounds like a Fokker taking off but I don't give a hoot, the ipod is in my ears anyway :p

Yeah, totally agree. I do most of my FTP work on the spinner in the gym which conveniently has a wattage reading. When the fan rotates to my position I get an automatic increase of 15-20 watts with the same perceived effort or can maintain the same load with less perceived effort.
 
Jun 23, 2009
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Interesting graphs. I understand the disconnect between HR and power and agree that power training is much better than relying on HR. However, on the graphs you show ( i am presuming HR is red), the red line follows a linear response with a maximum at the end of the interval. The power line (presumably yellow) fluctuates considerably, especially on the poorly paced tt graph. Do you know why?

I think it could also be argued that HR could be used to do interval training if you can maintain a linear increase over time vs using a constant power output. This is based on the data in your graphs.
 
biker77 said:
The power line (presumably yellow) fluctuates considerably, especially on the poorly paced tt graph. Do you know why?
Yes. It is normal. Power does actually fluctuate like that in the real world. That doesn't mean one can't use it a guide. You are not attempting to sit at exactly X watts. You are looking to ride an interval at a given range of power, which might be between X and X+5% watts. And if doing outdoors on variable terrain, then you also go with the flow a little.

biker77 said:
I think it could also be argued that HR could be used to do interval training if you can maintain a linear increase over time vs using a constant power output. This is based on the data in your graphs.
You could but nobody does. Even when you show them.

Tell someone to do a threshold interval with a given expected HR range and I can bet you my house they will get their HR up into zone very quickly for "fear" of not working hard enough for those opening minutes, when in fact all they are doing is going too hard and fading out for the remainder of the effort.
 
Sep 13, 2009
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yes it hurts....

Yeah trainers are a ***** sometimes. My recommendation is to make sure you have a plan whenever you mount your turbo. If you hop on and pedal without any specific aim it will also result in a non specific result. If you want to go for high intensity work on a turbo my advise is to keep it really high intenisty and high quality(then HR level should not be such a problem) Keep the intervals short and sharp (no longer than 10 mins) as it IS harder to remain focussed on the turbo. I find the turbo good for interval and recovery rides as well as power pedalling, all below 2 hours. For the long rides it is murder to be on a turbo, go out and enjoy the nature! Make sure that the work you put in is good work, not just hours lost. Your HR is a very good indicator, so if this tells you your not working hard enough... chances are you are not working hard enough! LOUD upbeat music helps me!! Go get them!
 
Jul 22, 2009
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The question is: can you match road intensities on the trainer...and the answer, for me is no- I find using a trainer is far more intense than a bike on the road; there is very little inertial force that is recycled on a trainer; I do prefer rollers for being able to provide a bit of that. In the wintertime I often would choose to go out to ride in -20c than do an hour on my rollers.
 
Let's see.

When I was last doing regular 20-min threshold tolerance intervals, one day it rained so I did them indoors within a week of an outdoor set:

4 Aug 09: Outdoors (Powertap on slightly rolling terrain)
TTI 1: 277 watts
TTI 2: 275 watts
Average (276W)

11 Aug 09: Indoor ergobike (SRM)
TTI 1: 278 watts
TTI 2: 288 watts
Average (283W)

Given the approximately 2.5% difference between a properly calibrated Powertap and an SRM due to drivetrain efficiency (SRM reads ~ 2.5% higher), then

283W - 2.5% = 276W, so I'd say it's definitely possible to generate the same intensity indoors as it is out. For me at least.

But then I have taken the trouble to organise a set up to make that possible.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
Most vastly underestimate the cooling requirement when training indoors. Since putting this puppy to work, my power went up overnight when training indoors. They are not that expensive either, this was ~ A$210 new. OK so it sounds like a Fokker taking off but I don't give a hoot, the ipod is in my ears anyway :p

We can save everyone alot of dough and have them do the basics: a)good box-type fan or two-Home Depot special for $15 b)TV-doesn't have to be tuned to anything specific c)music-use a cycle of mellow to agro to allow warmup d)what several folks have said-start out of the saddle on the hoods and use full pedal stroke for a minute. Your pulse should be in a reliable range for 80-90 rpm and you'll know if your pedal stroke is appropriately complete in range for the effort d)****can the expensive ergo trainers, SRAM devices and output programs/readouts. Use a Blackburn Trakstand fluid trainer. It's quiet and simulates the road feel pretty well allowing you to use you own bike and gears. Pluse you will train more and waste less time looking at geek charts. e)Make you indoor session at least 45 minutes or more if you really think you want to do an interval. It takes at least 15 minutes of gradual work to get loose. Longer indoor sessions will make you crave the outdoors. f)MOST IMPORTANT-you will never duplicate the effort of riding with a stronger rider outdoors. Do that once a week to check your routine's effectiveness.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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I like the geek charts and such, in fact time on rollers is essentially practicing pain-management techniques- I use the numbers to put my mind away from the pain and to set achieveable goals.
 
Oldman said:
We can save everyone alot of dough and have them do the basics: a)good box-type fan or two-Home Depot special for $15
That nice but 2 domestic fans won't cut it on the cooling front. The air flow is simply insufficient.

Think about it, how fast do you ride outside? - that's a good indication of how quickly the air flow is over your whole body when riding and cooling you.

Two home depot fans won't even come close, and your power indoors will suffer accordingly, and that means your indoor training is far less effective because you are unable to generate the watts. But you wouldn't know that since you don't advocate using a power meter. Which by the way are very very helpful in aiding motivation when on a trainer.

Keep an eye on ebay for industrial pedestal fans, pick up a bargain.
 

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