Cancellara

[blackcat]

I think you have a point there. If Spartacus is clean it strongly implies that most of the other high end time trialist are too, or he couldn't win. That again implies to me that the most of the peloton would be more or less clean. Contador to me mind still smells, since he time trials suspiciously well for a supposed climber, and I've heard that he refused to give a DNA sample to check for connections to Puerto which is always suspicious. Also of cause the entire train of logic relies on Fabian being clean. Personally I'd like to believe that, but I've watched Cycling long enough to realize that the absence of evidence isn't strong evidence of absence when it comes to doping.

Contador started as a timetrialer, you should do some research. He busted out some great prologues in Paris Nice going back to 2004 I think. They guy is a stud in the chrono. May be even 2003 his debut. You check it

 

[Cerberus]

Contador started as a timetrialer, you should do some research. He busted out some great prologues in Paris Nice going back to 2004 I think. They guy is a stud in the chrono. May be even 2003 his debut. You check it

According to Wikipedia (citing his biography) his first victories were montain classification. Though I do see that he has TT victories from early on too so yes apparently he always was a fairly good at TT.

 

[blackcat]

According to Wikipedia (citing his biography) his first victories were montain classification. Though I do see that he has TT victories from early on too so yes apparently he always was a fairly good at TT.

that is not his first win.

He won the u23 tt for Spain in his first year as an epsoir I think, then about 20, won Tour of Poland chrono, a pretty deep race.

 

[elapid]

that is not his first win.

He won the u23 tt for Spain in his first year as an epsoir I think, then about 20, won Tour of Poland chrono, a pretty deep race.

I think Contador was hired by Sainz because of his U23 Spanish TT win, so TTs got him his first professional contract.

 

[cromagnon]

1) I heard Contador with my very own ears offer himself for DNA testing in 2007

2) Cancellara was beaten by Schumacher who was riding up to his ears and you could see that a mile off

3) Final TT's in grand tours begin to bias those with the freshest legs I am all for cynicism but am also starting to think some of you here have no clue about cycling and are just joining in for the fun.

4) No one bats an eyelid when Evans or Leipheimer TT well, Contador 5ft 9 62 kg, very similar to the other two.

5) MIT windtunnel personnel have never seen a lower drag coeff than what Contador showed in testing (is one of the premier world respected Universities in the world now lying for reasons unknown?)

6) Contador's first win as a pro was an ITT

I know it's fun to join in but some of you need to try to actually watch some cycling.

 

[riobonito92]

1)

I know it's fun to join in but some of you need to try to actually watch some cycling.

The points being raised are about perception: why do most fans, including nearly all posters here, think that Cancellara is probably clean but many are suspicious of Contador when, as you so knowledgeably point out, his outstadning performances can be explained without reference to PEDs.

So, the perception of the non-expert "armchair fan" is really what is being discussed here. And, at the basic, emotional reaction of many people to Cancellara is not "he must be doped" but "he is an awesomely powerful athlete doing what he does exceptionally well". He looks the part. Contador springing up a mountain looks the part. But, especially after Cancellara had finished and all the other top contenders had posted slower times, I doubt whether many armchair fans expected Contador to win that final TT. It was the unexpected nature of his win, against a TT specialist who was at the top of his game, by a man who had just spent a week attacking through mountains, that made the armchair fans (that I know, I won't over-generalize) raise suspicions that Contador was doped.

Oh, and I participate in forums because it is a bit of fun. What is your motivation?

 

[Anonymous]

The points being raised are about perception: why do most fans, including nearly all posters here, think that Cancellara is probably clean but many are suspicious of Contador when, as you so knowledgeably point out, his outstadning performances can be explained without reference to PEDs.

So, the perception of the non-expert "armchair fan" is really what is being discussed here. And, at the basic, emotional reaction of many people to Cancellara is not "he must be doped" but "he is an awesomely powerful athlete doing what he does exceptionally well". He looks the part. Contador springing up a mountain looks the part. But, especially after Cancellara had finished and all the other top contenders had posted slower times, I doubt whether many armchair fans expected Contador to win that final TT. It was the unexpected nature of his win, against a TT specialist who was at the top of his game, by a man who had just spent a week attacking through mountains, that made the armchair fans (that I know, I won't over-generalize) raise suspicions that Contador was doped.

Oh, and I participate in forums because it is a bit of fun. What is your motivation?

thats what i was trying to get across but my poor grammar lets me down..

 

[blackcat]

I think Contador was hired by Sainz because of his U23 Spanish TT win, so TTs got him his first professional contract.

that was my mail too, though I do not have it on record, so it may be apocryphal. cyclingwebsite.net do not have it, as far as I know.

Always remember the young kid doing well in the Paris Nice prologue. The guy is a stud no doubt. A mate said he would win the Tour, about 6 years back. Same guy was recommending Cavendish to pro teams. He knows how to pick em.

 

[blackcat]

The points being raised are about perception: why do most fans, including nearly all posters here, think that Cancellara is probably clean but many are suspicious of Contador when, as you so knowledgeably point out, his outstadning performances can be explained without reference to PEDs.

nope, I think both are charged, like all at the pointy end of the big races. Does anyone talk to pros who are frank and forthcoming? You will get an insight as to what is possible, and what is not.

 

[Publicus]

Cancellara doesn't fit the pattern:

Riders who attack frequently and never seem to get tired (Ricco, Rasmussan)
Riders who improve unexpectedly (Kohl, Schumacher)
Riders who put in "superhuman" performances (Vinokourov, Landis, Hamilton with broken collarbone)
GC riders who get careless (Heras, Basso)

Then there are the usual suspects:
Riders who never have a bad day (Contador? Armstrong?)

In all of the above cases, many people suspected doping before any positive tests because what was being seen was not otherwise explicable. With Cancellara there are lots of other-than-doping explanations - hence less suspicion.

AC has had bad days (see 2007 Tour de France; see also 2009 Paris Nice). As for AC beating Spartacus in the final ITT, it is pretty simple. He blew Spartacus away on the first half of the course and barely held on to his lead over the last half of the course (he only won by 3 seconds after being up by 46 seconds at the third checkpoint (top 3rd category climb). Had the ITT been 50 meters longer, Spartacus would have won.

 

[Escarabajo]

...
5) MIT windtunnel personnel have never seen a lower drag coeff than what Contador showed in testing (is one of the premier world respected Universities in the world now lying for reasons unknown?)

....

Give me the numbers or the source please?

 

[afpm90]

Cancellara doesn't fit the pattern:

Riders who attack frequently and never seem to get tired (Ricco, Rasmussan)
Riders who improve unexpectedly (Kohl, Schumacher)
Riders who put in "superhuman" performances (Vinokourov, Landis, Hamilton with broken collarbone)
GC riders who get careless (Heras, Basso)

Then there are the usual suspects:
Riders who never have a bad day (Contador? Armstrong?)

In all of the above cases, many people suspected doping before any positive tests because what was being seen was not otherwise explicable. With Cancellara there are lots of other-than-doping explanations - hence less suspicion.

There isn't a pattern for doping. There are many examples of cyclists who don't fit in that pattern and still tested positive. For example Ricardo Serrano.

 

[cyclingmad]

Drag

Is it possible to post your own photos on these threads I have 2 pictures showing a good comparison of the profile of Contador compared to Andy Schleck in a straight drag at the same spot. A number of riders are pretty tight like David Millar but with Contadors size advantage he definitely has the lowest drag of anyone

 

[lagartija]

The time is believable, so is the margin of victory.

The couse suited Cancellara's abilities perfectly. It was totally flat and made of large sweeping turns that enabled him to maintain his speed and cadence without interruption.

His average speed was between 50 and 51 kph, or about 30 mph. For a wide open circuit this is well within the range of believability. It actually seems a little slow by recent pro-tour standards.

His margin of vitory was a mere nine seconds over the second place finisher and 34 seconds over the median (99th place) finisher. His time was only 3% faster than Boonen's second place time and 10% faster than the guys who finished in the middle of the bunch. These are believable margins.

Cancellara has never been implicated in a doping scandal to my knowledge, yet proclaimed fans of the sport seem to find it appropriate to try to begin a grass-roots scandal on this forum. It is a shame that there are those who have become so jaded that they can no longer enjoy the sport.

i couldnt agree more............

 

[lagartija]

Spartacus is bigger than the average GT cyclist, giving him more power. He disappeared pretty quickly in the TdF once thing started going uphill. In order to be strong in the TT, one must be mentally very strong as well. Form, power, mental stability. Cancellara also deserves more credit than he typically gets for his descending technique. Outside of Hushovd, is there anyone better in the business at the moment?

descending?...............Sammy Sanchez

 

[scribe]

Nibali always looked like he was flying downhill. Not sure how that stacks up though.

 

[Steampunk]

descending?...............Sammy Sanchez

Fair enough. Funny: I was thinking about the TdF and forgot about good descenders who didn't participate.

 

[Parrot23]

Have to like CN's headline: "Cancellara motors to win in Vuelta's opening time trial", LOL. Motors can mean many things.

How about Riis chaperoning his A team to Madrid to the good gynocologist's office for team pap smears...

LOL, now that's a good line.

Contador started as a timetrialer, you should do some research. He busted out some great prologues in Paris Nice going back to 2004 I think. They guy is a stud in the chrono. May be even 2003 his debut. You check it

You must have esp. enjoyed it when Alberto ko'ed Wiggo in the short time trial at Paris Nice this year. Now that was apropos, wasn't it? I see Bertie on the right-hand side of this page (in an ad for Look pedals) says: "I demand the best. I know what I want".

 

[blackcat]

On Wiggins, go and look at his tt history,

won a l'Avenir prologue, weak field
won a Dunkirk chrono in 2006 when he left the track behind for that year, another weak field.

Perhaps the weakest field of all is the pursuit.

Mcgee could never commit because he was paid on the road. Huizenga was a Dutch amateur that beat his time in Manchester last year. And Roulston pushed him, when he had had a cardiac ailment and just ridden domestic NZ for the last 3 years.

I mean, if you closely scrutinise his palmares, it is a myth that the guy is a phenomenal timetrialer.

Now Contador started tting in the pros, right from the start. His win at Poland rates above Wiggins' l'Avenir prologue, and above the Dunkirk win. Then Contador really started to show form.

It is an anglophone board, but these misconceptions prevail.

 

[dienekes88]

AC has had bad days (see 2007 Tour de France; see also 2009 Paris Nice). As for AC beating Spartacus in the final ITT, it is pretty simple. He blew Spartacus away on the first half of the course and barely held on to his lead over the last half of the course (he only won by 3 seconds after being up by 46 seconds at the third checkpoint (top 3rd category climb). Had the ITT been 50 meters longer, Spartacus would have won.

Spartacus also probably saved too much for the last part. I think I remember him averaging 40+mph between time checks 3 and 4. Aerodynamic drag is not a conservative force... Gravity is.

 

[Steampunk]

Still don't think AC could beat Cancellara over a short distance, no matter what he is on.

Bike or medicine?

 

[auscyclefan94]

Have to like CN's headline: "Cancellara motors to win in Vuelta's opening time trial", LOL. Motors can mean many things.



LOL, now that's a good line.



You must have esp. enjoyed it when Alberto ko'ed Wiggo in the short time trial at Paris Nice this year. Now that was apropos, wasn't it? I see Bertie on the right-hand side of this page (in an ad for Look pedals) says: "I demand the best. I know what I want".

Cancellara's performance was at 53km/h. Simply amazing. I guess it's too amazing for some.
Ole' Bertie Contador definetly knows, demands and get wht he wants if you know what i'm saying

 

[Parrot23]

Then Contador really started to show form.

Yes, this is great: also the world's best climber in GT's. Gotta love the combination. I'm waiting for him to take on the green jersey comp. too. He's consulting with Ussain B. while going on to a Wheaties free diet (nothing but rice cakes for him, now)

 

[blackcat]

Yes, this is great: also the world's best climber in GT's. Gotta love the combination. I'm waiting for him to take on the green jersey comp. too. He's consulting with Ussain B. while going on to a Wheaties free diet (nothing but rice cakes for him, now)

yeah, I appreciate that POV.

I will take to an anglophone with more venom when they stand up before us and say "I is clean", than a Euro who does not try to spin us.

Ride and dope, just dont tell us you're clean.

And I dislike the bias against the Spanish, the pavlovian "they be doping, they is doperz". Ofcourse they are doping, but the anglophones are no better. I especially dislike it, when their facts are wrong, like Contador's ability to timetrial.

 

[2beacoup]

At the end of the day they're all cheaters.

Lamenting who's the better rider (contador/cancellara/wiggins) is like asking who's the better singer: milli or vanilli?