Cancellara

[Anonymous]

well someones going to say it, so we may as well have a thread for it..

I believe in cancellara, but sometimes something happens that, well, lets just say, someone convince me, cos right now doubts are creaping in..

there is fast, and there is too fast.. is there?

 

[blackcat]

well someones going to say it, so we may as well have a thread for it..

I believe in cancellara, but sometimes something happens that, well, lets just say, someone convince me, cos right now doubts are creaping in..

there is fast, and there is too fast.. is there?

I never believed in Cancellara.

But I cant weight til he goes to Garmin, loses 8 kgs, and beats a Sky Wiggins and a Caisse Contador to win the Tour. That will be the icing and the cake.

 

[rolfrae]

He didn't even appear to be breathing, let alone trying. I'd love to believe in his performance today but I've been following cycling for too long to be that naive. Only a lack of team support (and teammates to chase down breaks) is going to stop him winning the RR on Sunday.

 

[blackcat]

He didn't even appear to be breathing, let alone trying. I'd love to believe in his performance today but I've been following cycling for too long to be that naive. Only a lack of team support (and teammates to chase down breaks) is going to stop him winning the RR on Sunday.

that is hyperbole. His form in the tt told me he must have been spending too much time on the chrono bike, to win the rr. You cant win the rr over 6 hours, and win a chrono under one hour. Just cant.

 

[rolfrae]

that is hyperbole. His form in the tt told me he must have been spending too much time on the chrono bike, to win the rr. You cant win the rr over 6 hours, and win a chrono under one hour. Just cant.

In the "shape" he's in now I'd put nothing past him.

 

[Moondance]

Does anybody have any proof?

And by 'proof' i mean, of course, a lot of speculation and hearsay.

 

[Bala Verde]

Does anybody have any proof?

And by 'proof' i mean, of course, a lot of speculation and hearsay.

classicomano?

 

[cromagnon]

Don't forget Indurain once rode the final timetrial of a Tour at 34 mph average a pretty huge 2 km/h quicker than today's winner so it's not that what Cancellara does is impossible, far from it, he's just a lot better than the rest. Of course win = cheat on this board Go back to the lance years and Cancellara was not so dominant in ITT's I leave it to you all to decide why.

 

[Escarabajo]

I have him for 493 Watts for a time of 57':55.74".
Wind conditions will even itself out because of the loops, unless there was some side wind. Then it will increase to even 530 W. So the range is too big anyway. So power to weight ratio would be between 6.2 to 6.6 W/kg. So in other words unless I have the wind conditions and exact weight these calculations won't tell me anything. We need a power tab for time trials.

 

[mikkemus23]

He did have a reputed link to Checchini...but as I recall he said the doc was just his trainer...
Anyone know if he still has connections to chicci?

 

[hfer07]

Cancellara has been, is currently and will be a "time Trial Specialist" in essence - His abilities didn't just accidentally appeared overnight in comparison to certain Tour de France competitors/winners- his career has a progressive line, with some highlights in the Classics & minor stage races. but never expect from him to win a grand tour or even get top 5....
Does he dope? -Of course he does, but like his competition isn't doing it so...

 

[drfunk000]

I have him for 450 Watts for a time of 57':55.74".
Wind conditions will even itself out because of the loops, unless there was some side wind. Then it will increase to even 530 W. So the range is too big anyway. So power to weight ratio would be between 5.6 to 6.6 W/kg. So in other words unless I have the wind conditions and exact weight these calculations won't tell me anything. We need a power tab for time trials.

How are you calculating frontal area? Did you go from a head on shot of Fabian in the TT position?

 

[blackcat]

He did have a reputed link to Checchini...but as I recall he said the doc was just his trainer...
Anyone know if he still has connections to chicci?

yes, but Jaksche and Hamilton also said Ceccho was "only" their trainer. Dekker too. Only did his interval plans.

Jaksche, Hamilton, Dekker, Ullrich, lol. This coach has a great strike record with his stars yah?

 

[hektoren]

yes, but Jaksche and Hamilton also said Ceccho was "only" their trainer. Dekker too. Only did his interval plans.

Jaksche, Hamilton, Dekker, Ullrich, lol. This coach has a great strike record with his stars yah?

You're forgetting Bjarne Riis, who used Cecchini as trainer, personal advisor and medic, when he was preparing for the 1996 TdF where he used EPO. Great guy!

 

[Anonymous]

I never believed in Cancellara.

But I cant weight til he goes to Garmin, loses 8 kgs, and beats a Sky Wiggins and a Caisse Contador to win the Tour. That will be the icing and the cake.

7 to 9 kilos is the magic number for Garmin. Before that you just need to gain weight at the Giro.

You Ripper!

 

[hmronnow]

He didn't even appear to be breathing

I saw similar arguments about contador in the TDF - in the context of that being proof of doping.

If I understand correctly, doping with EPO or blood transfusion increase the number of oxygen carrying red blood cells - right? Now, you still need some oxygen for them little cells to carry around. So, blood doping would only increase the need for breating air into the lungs. I don't see the connection between how someone breathes and whether they have increased their number of red blood cells. Well, on the contrary, if anything there would be the opposite trend.

Maybe people are refering to the type of 'hyperventillation' that arise when doing very high intensity intervals. But, based on my own experience, that only appear considerably above FTP (functional threshold power). Definition of FTP is essentially a 1 hour TT. So, one should not enter hyperventilation during a 1h TT.

Am I missing something?

 

[Escarabajo]

How are you calculating frontal area? Did you go from a head on shot of Fabian in the TT position?

I am using A~0.36 - 0.38 m2 I change it depending on the rider. I just realized I input the air density wrong in my program. It should be 1.136 kg/m3 for Mendrisio @ 342 m elevation and 77°F. With that density I get around 493 W for Cancellara with no wind. Somewhere around 6.2 W/kg.

To be honest it is very difficult to do calculation for the time trial since the drag factor and frontal area are crucial for the calculations. I really don't have a good handle on these two values for time trials. I am going to read some information on this to educate myself a little more. So far I am depending on some matches that I have done on some power tabs from other cyclist in time trials and I try to depart from there. But that is it.

This what I have for frontal area for an average person (I don't have the height and weight details because I don't have the book with me now):

Vertical Commuter: 0.51 m2 (Cd=1.1)
Climbing: 0.44 m2 (Cd=0.99)
Racing: 0.36 - 0.38 m2 (Cd=0.88)
Drafting: 0.36 - 0.38 m2 (Cd= 0.5)
Moser: 0.42 m2 (Cd=0.51)
TT: Depends on the rider. I decrease or increase depending on Power Tab.

This is from the "Fluid Mechanics" book from McGraw-Hill. Here, anybody can do it:

Drag Power = (0.5)*(1.13689kg/m3)*((14.33 m/s)^2)*(0.69)*(0.38 m2)*(14.33 m/s) = 439 watts

The rest is rolling resistance, bearings and some kinetic losses. You get 493 Watts.
Add some wind and more weight and you have a formula for "disaster".

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I believe for now that Cancellara is relatively clean. Because he is not winning TT by 3 mins like Epo-Lance-out-of-nowhere or Indurain-out-of-nowhere did. He always was a good TT-Rider (unlike Epo-Lance). He never won a Grand-Tour. Like one poster said: Unless he wins a 3-Week-Tour i am convinced he is not doped up to the gills like Epo-Lance. So congrats to Cancellara for now.

 

[derailleur]

Go back to the lance years and Cancellara was not so dominant in ITT's I leave it to you all to decide why.

Back in the Lance years I weighed an eighth of a ton and would be sore for three days after walking up 4 flights of stairs. In 2007 I weighed 152 lbf and was hammer-curling 100 with either arm. The human body is capable of stunning change under controlled adaptation. No illicit activity is required.

 

[Anonymous]

ive always beleived cancellera was the best, and generally think he is clean

but today.. good god, he went past people like they werent there, peddaling at speeds i dont think ive ever seen, effortless, without even trying, no breathing, nothing, i have never seen someone so easily and singlehandedly destroy everyone..

that in itself gives me doubts.. id love to beleive, but today just, well my jaw dropped and i sat there staring at the tv unable to beleive what i was seeing..

 

[Highlander]

but today.. good god, he went past people like they werent there, peddaling at speeds i dont think ive ever seen, effortless, without even trying, no breathing, nothing, i have never seen someone so easily and singlehandedly destroy everyone..

I must say, you must be very perceptive if you can tell if he is trying. I'm sure that your ability to accurately assess the performances of other riders makes you much in demand as you possess skills that the ordinary person lacks.

 

[Steampunk]

Not a pro or con statement, but he is a TT specialist. Does anyone show better form at the moment? Also, Spartacus is a real character; I'm sure the location of the event meant an awful lot to him. He has certainly implied as much.

 

[_frost]

I am using A~0.36 - 0.38 m2 I change it depending on the rider. I just realized I input the air density wrong in my program. It should be 1.136 kg/m3 for Mendrisio @ 342 m elevation and 77°F. With that density I get around 493 W for Cancellara with no wind. Somewhere around 6.2 W/kg.

To be honest it is very difficult to do calculation for the time trial since the drag factor and frontal area are crucial for the calculations. I really don't have a good handle on these two values for time trials. I am going to read some information on this to educate myself a little more. So far I am depending on some matches that I have done on some power tabs from other cyclist in time trials and I try to depart from there. But that is it.

This what I have for frontal area for an average person (I don't have the height and weight details because I don't have the book with me now):

Vertical Commuter: 0.51 m2 (Cd=1.1)
Climbing: 0.44 m2 (Cd=0.99)
Racing: 0.36 - 0.38 m2 (Cd=0.88)
Drafting: 0.36 - 0.38 m2 (Cd= 0.5)
Moser: 0.42 m2 (Cd=0.74)
TT: Depends on the rider. I decrease or increase depending on Power Tab.

This is from the "Fluid Mechanics" book from McGraw-Hill. Here, anybody can do it:

Drag Power = (0.5)*(1.13689kg/m3)*((14.33 m/s)^2)*(0.69)*(0.38 m2)*(14.33 m/s) = 439 watts

The rest is rolling resistance, bearings and some kinetic losses. You get 493 Watts.
Add some wind and more weight and you have a formula for "disaster".

(0.69)*(0.38 m2) would put his CdA to 0.262 which I think is way too much. It is not very fruitful to try to split CdA to Cd and A because first of all these variables change depending on yaw angle and on the other hand they are pretty meaningless separated. Obviously Fab is much bigger and not in a Superman position but just for a reference Boardmans CdA for Superman position has been estimated 0.180 m2 and Indurain in his hour record would be somewhere 0.24-0.25.

Wind would change any estimate. It doesn't matter if the route is loop, the wind doesn't cancel out. Think about a situation where you have to ride against say 30 m/s wind. You won't move. It doesn't help if at another point you get that wind on your tail. Same for the climbs. Any change to completely flat and windless position slows down.

 

[BigBoat]

I have him for 493 Watts for a time of 57':55.74".
Wind conditions will even itself out because of the loops, unless there was some side wind. Then it will increase to even 530 W. So the range is too big anyway. So power to weight ratio would be between 6.2 to 6.6 W/kg. So in other words unless I have the wind conditions and exact weight these calculations won't tell me anything. We need a power tab for time trials.

It would be interesting to know what his power was/is. Its over 490 because thats what his teamate Gustov puts out and Cancellara is quicker than him.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

If I understand correctly, doping with EPO or blood transfusion increase the number of oxygen carrying red blood cells - right? Now, you still need some oxygen for them little cells to carry around. So, blood doping would only increase the need for breating air into the lungs.

I think that a higher concentration of oxygen carriers in the blood means a higher percentage of oxygen in each breath could be absorbed, so less air needs to go through the lungs for the same oxygen supply to the muscles.