"Car-doored" this afternoon

[hmsgenoa]

18 kph? One hopes that is at the moment of impact and therefore a deceleration! Joking aside, those who think it is possible to ride 5ft or nearly 2m away from parked cars in urban areas are living in cloud cuckoo land; if everycyclist rode like that we'd have more instances of riders being mown down from behind. The lesser of two evils in town is to ride maybe a metre away and be very alert. We don't all live out in the sticks.

 

[Martin318is]

Approximately 10% of the mass of a real 318is ?

If you do the math based upon the E30 then you are much, MUCH closer to exactly correct than I am happy about.....

 

[Martin318is]

If you're between "angry traffic" and parked cars with insufficient space to continue outside of the door zone, you're simply positioned poorly - you should be out in the traffic lane.

I was riding in a MARKED bicycle lane. I wasn't on the driver side of the car, I was to the left of a car that was itself in the traffic lane. the only way I could have passed to the right of the car would be to ride into oncoming traffic.

 

[Nick777]

I was riding in a MARKED bicycle lane. I wasn't on the driver side of the car, I was to the left of a car that was itself in the traffic lane. the only way I could have passed to the right of the car would be to ride into oncoming traffic.

Hey Martin - where in Melbourne did it happen?

 

[Martin318is]

Hey Martin - where in Melbourne did it happen?

Toorak rd.

 

[Nick777]

Toorak rd.

I work about 5-10 minutes from Toorak Rd - near the St Kilda junction. It's not normally too bad along there, but I haven't ridden there in peak times..

Riding home along Beach Rd - now that's an experience.

 

[JA.Tri]

lack of consideration

I was riding in a MARKED bicycle lane. I wasn't on the driver side of the car, I was to the left of a car that was itself in the traffic lane. the only way I could have passed to the right of the car would be to ride into oncoming traffic.

This demonstrates that bike lines are not wide enough. So even if we are generous and credit Town/Road planners with "the best of intentions", the planning for cyclists is inadequate.

Equally other road users (and their passengers) still do not/can not/will not anticipate the presence of cyclists. And that includes anticipation of cyclists occupying bike lanes.

I guess the outcome for us is that we need to be preternaturally observant, considerate and anticipate (and I am a long way from achieving that standard).

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I was riding in a MARKED bicycle lane. I wasn't on the driver side of the car, I was to the left of a car that was itself in the traffic lane. the only way I could have passed to the right of the car would be to ride into oncoming traffic.

Bicycle lanes are fixed. Appropriate positioning depends on current conditions and situation. The guidance given by the bicycle lane is therefore often wrong, including when traffic in the traffic lane is congested and slow.

Temporarily moving into the oncoming lane, obviously when it's clear, is a normal way to pass slower/stopped traffic. Passing on the outside (near the curb) is not normal for traffic in general (except when the one being passed is obviously stopped near the center of the road preparing to turn across the oncoming lanes when clear). Unfortunately it is normal for the vast majority of bicyclists who don't think of themselves as being drivers.

On the rare occasions that I pass on the outside (near the curb/edge), I do so slowly and with extreme vigilance, and outside of the door zone. But in general I move out into the traffic lane and pass on the inside, often using the oncoming lane (when clear) if required.

 

[Polyarmour]

If you're between "angry traffic" and parked cars with insufficient space to continue outside of the door zone, you're simply positioned poorly - you should be out in the traffic lane.

In order to avoid having to hear maybe a honk or two you're willing to risk injury and possibly even death by riding in the door zone? Suit yourself, but don't say it's not always possible to avoid the door zone. Of course it is, and I know people all over the U.S. who do it in any city you can think of.

Go to this link to find an LCI who will teach you how to avoid door zones in your area:
http://www.bikeleague.org/programs/education/course_schedule.php

Ok I'll give you a hypothetical.

You're in the bike lane and you approach a large number of parked cars. Their door zones extend over the bike lane. You could move into the traffic but the traffic is heavy and travelling much faster than you. Moving into the traffic will cause major congestion and plenty of anger. There is not enough room for the traffic to get around you once you have moved out of the bike lane but you have no doubt some frustrated driver will try anyway. Moving into the traffic will carry a risk just as staying in the bike lane will carry a risk. What would you do?

 

[Martin318is]

Bicycle lanes are fixed. Appropriate positioning depends on current conditions and situation. The guidance given by the bicycle lane is therefore often wrong, including when traffic in the traffic lane is congested and slow.

Temporarily moving into the oncoming lane, obviously when it's clear, is a normal way to pass slower/stopped traffic. Passing on the outside (near the curb) is not normal for traffic in general (except when the one being passed is obviously stopped near the center of the preparing to turn across the oncoming lanes when clear). Unfortunately it is normal for the vast majority of bicyclists who don't think of themselves as being drivers.

On the rare occasions that I pass on the outside (near the curb/edge), I do so slowly and with extreme vigilance, and outside of the door zone. But in general I move out into the traffic lane and pass on the inside, often using the oncoming lane (when clear) if required.

You might actually want to consult the laws and guidances of countries other than your own before you declare what is 'normal' and whether that is incorrect behaviour.

In Victoria, cyclists are told to move to the front of the queue of stationary cars on the gutter side and wait at the lights at special 'bike boxes' that exist a most major intersections to help the cyclists congregate in a visible way.

Filtering between stationary cars is frowned upon and riding into oncoming traffic on a solid line (like when approaching an intersection) carries a fine.

Rule 269 of the road laws states that it is illegal for a car to open any door at any time if it impedes anyone, whether that person is a pedestrian, cyclist, car (or theoretically on horseback for instance).

Your statement that moving into the oncoming lane 'when it is clear' indicates you have misread the traffic conditions at the time of the accident - it was peak hour - traffic was moving in all directions and even if that were not the case, crossing a solid line at an intersection is an illegal act.

Not every situation resolves itself into a list of available actions. In my case, I had two options - filter to the gutter side of the stationary cars - or sit behind them until they turned left. I chose to do what the law clearly states I am allowed to do and I moved forward. I was moving slowly (as I indicated earlier). If I had ridden on the wrong side of the road I would have been exposed to a fast moving vehicle coming at me head on from around the corner - dumb - very dumb.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Ok I'll give you a hypothetical.

You're in the bike lane and you approach a large number of parked cars. Their door zones extend over the bike lane. You could move into the traffic but the traffic is heavy and travelling much faster than you. Moving into the traffic will cause major congestion and plenty of anger. There is not enough room for the traffic to get around you once you have moved out of the bike lane but you have no doubt some frustrated driver will try anyway. Moving into the traffic will carry a risk just as staying in the bike lane will carry a risk. What would you do?

If the bike lane is 5 feet wide then tracking on the stripe of the bike lane should work fine. If it's narrower than that and tracking just to the left of the stripe, just outside of the door zone, works well, I'll do that.

If neither of those conditions apply, then I negotiate with traffic and move into the traffic lane. By negotiate I mean I look back, clearly signal, wait for someone to slow down for me to let me in, then I go in. I've never seen this condition last long enough to where I adversely affected traffic for a significantly long time. Oh, and I would expect to be able to anticipate the situation in advance and position myself appropriately well before I'm in a compromised situation. But I don't consider taking the lane in fast traffic to be a compromised situation. Video example (though this one does not have a door zone bike lane): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1C3qqhW6Aw&feature=relmfu


But the ability to effectively negotiate right of way with much faster and dense traffic is very, very handy in situations like that.

 

[Polyarmour]

If the bike lane is 5 feet wide then tracking on the stripe of the bike lane should work fine. If it's narrower than that and tracking just to the left of the stripe, just outside of the door zone, works well, I'll do that.

If neither of those conditions apply, then I negotiate with traffic and move into the traffic lane. By negotiate I mean I look back, clearly signal, wait for someone to slow down for me to let me in, then I go in. I've never seen this condition last long enough to where I adversely affected traffic for a significantly long time. Oh, and I would expect to be able to anticipate the situation in advance and position myself appropriately well before I'm in a compromised situation. But I don't consider taking the lane in fast traffic to be a compromised situation. Video example (though this one does not have a door zone bike lane): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1C3qqhW6Aw&feature=relmfu


But the ability to effectively negotiate right of way with much faster and dense traffic is very, very handy in situations like that.

Interesting video, I can't work out where the "rear view" camera is. I found my self cringing watching this guy change lanes like that in faster moving traffic without even looking behind. I know he had the little rear view mirror on his helmet but but when driving a car we are taught to take a look as well.. Anyway I still contend that what he was doing was not without its own set of risks. I think if you did that in this country you'd collect a lot of honking and abuse, a few cars would overtake you close to scare you off and you might even cop something thrown at you.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Interesting video, I can't work out where the "rear view" camera is. I found my self cringing watching this guy change lanes like that in faster moving traffic without even looking behind. I know he had the little rear view mirror on his helmet but but when driving a car we are taught to take a look as well.. Anyway I still contend that what he was doing was not without its own set of risks. I think if you did that in this country you'd collect a lot of honking and abuse, a few cars would overtake you close to scare you off and you might even cop something thrown at you.

I can't speak for other countries, but the idea of using the center of the lane as one's "primary riding position" comes from the UK book Cyclecraft by John Franklin, though a N. American edition is now available that covers Canada as well as the U.S. I know folks all over the U.S., via mailing lists, forums, blogs, facebook, etc., who have adopted this style of riding and have nothing but good things to say about it in terms of comfort, safety, better treatment, etc. It's not intuitive to be so assertive, but it works great. There's no going back to "edge of road riding" one you get the knack. Key, I think, is that you're so much more conspicuous and obvious.

As to where the rear view is - it's two guys, one in front of the other, each with a helmet cam. The guy in front is filming backwards; the guy in back is filming forwards. That way you see a cyclist in every shot. Check out some of the other videos they have their youtube CyclistLorax channel, at least their first/main one (rights and duties of cyclists). Good stuff.

The lack of head turning bugs me every time I watch it, but they're anal about getting the video right (if you turn your head you move the camera), and they're expert mirror users.

That was in CA. Here's another take on the method, from Orlando, FL:

Video:
http://vimeo.com/17300276
Article:
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/11/29/helping-motorists-with-lane-positioning/

These folks in FL are cyclingsavvy.com, and they teach even novices to ride like this.

 

[Polyarmour]

I can't speak for other countries, but the idea of using the center of the lane as one's "primary riding position" comes from the UK book Cyclecraft by John Franklin, though a N. American edition is now available that covers Canada as well as the U.S. I know folks all over the U.S., via mailing lists, forums, blogs, facebook, etc., who have adopted this style of riding and have nothing but good things to say about it in terms of comfort, safety, better treatment, etc. It's not intuitive to be so assertive, but it works great. There's no going back to "edge of road riding" one you get the knack. Key, I think, is that you're so much more conspicuous and obvious.

As to where the rear view is - it's two guys, one in front of the other, each with a helmet cam. The guy in front is filming backwards; the guy in back is filming forwards. That way you see a cyclist in every shot. Check out some of the other videos they have their youtube CyclistLorax channel, at least their first/main one (rights and duties of cyclists). Good stuff.

The lack of head turning bugs me every time I watch it, but they're anal about getting the video right (if you turn your head you move the camera), and they're expert mirror users.

That was in CA. Here's another take on the method, from Orlando, FL:

Video:
http://vimeo.com/17300276
Article:
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/11/29/helping-motorists-with-lane-positioning/

These folks in FL are cyclingsavvy.com, and they teach even novices to ride like this.

I think the videos are very commendable. Cyclists need to develop better methods in their approach to traffic. Most of us learn by trial and error and on the way to becoming more proficient in traffic we cause a lot of grief... to ourselves and others. Personally I would support education and licensing of riders on the road. I think though it would need to be a two pronged approach. Car drivers also need to understand that they share the road with bikes and act accordingly. At the moment just having to slow down for a bike is enough to send many car drivers into road rage.

 

[Spare Tyre]

I think the videos are very commendable. Cyclists need to develop better methods in their approach to traffic. Most of us learn by trial and error and on the way to becoming more proficient in traffic we cause a lot of grief... to ourselves and others. Personally I would support education and licensing of riders on the road. I think though it would need to be a two pronged approach. Car drivers also need to understand that they share the road with bikes and act accordingly. At the moment just having to slow down for a bike is enough to send many car drivers into road rage.

Agree with your comments.

In relation to the bolded sentence: I'm not sure cyclists are any different. I'm a commute-about-town-in-civvies cyclist who normally avoids the on-road bike lane near my place as it is a famous thoroughfare for the lycra brigade. When I do use it I half-expect to be abused at any moment by a faster cyclist, as I prefer to ride as far out from parked cars as I can whilst remaining in the bike lane (ie, just inside the white line), and this forces faster cyclists to either manoevre into traffic to pass me or to wait up patiently until the next set of red lights or a gap between parked cars which allows me to pull to the side. Many seem to feel their pace should not be impeded by anyone or anything at any time. Just like drivers.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

At the moment just having to slow down for a bike is enough to send many car drivers into road rage.

For many years now I've been using a mirror when bicycling. It took a few weeks to get used to it, but soon enough glancing in it periodically became as automatic and effortless as using a car mirror. With just a split-second glance every few seconds, I extend my situational awareness from being limited to what's in front of me, to also include what's going on behind me. This is even more useful when bicycling than motoring because the slower speeds means what's behind you has a lot more to do with what the near future is going to look like.

One of the first things I learned is how much my behavior affects the behavior and reaction of others. For example, subtle and seemingly insignificant changes in lateral position by only a foot or two can make an enormous difference in how soon motorists approaching from behind react to you, indicating that they are noticing you sooner. The sooner they notice you the better, because that's gives them more time and distance to react and plan their overtaking, making them less likely to get annoyed and enraged. I also came to realize that it's not just having to slow down for a bicyclist that sends most of these drivers into a rage, it's having to slow down for a bicyclist who appears to be oblivious to his effect on them.

I know this because with a mirror I can see them coming, starting to slow down, and I can time an acknowledgment - turn around and look back and nod - just right, and that practically eliminates the rage. The nods, smiles and friendly waves I get, rather than honks and middle finger displays, are entirely convincing.

It's quite obvious that what's really annoying and enraging to them is not being slowed down, but being ignored. They're enraged not so much by the delay, but what they perceive to be the audacity of the cyclist. That's why it's so personal. Once they realize you know they are there, and convey a sense that you'll move out of the way as soon as it is reasonably and safely possible, they calm down. Timing it right is about nipping it in the bud, conveying this before they start to get annoyed and the irrational parts of their brains become overly active.

Once in a while I still go for rides without a mirror, and when I do I am unable to communicate nearly as effectively with others. As a result, I can't ride as conspicuously way out in the traffic lane as often, and am never-the-less much more likely to end up in an undesirable interaction with a motorist. The difference in communication and motorist treatment of me when riding with and without a mirror is quite amazing, really, and much, much more than one could ever hope to achieve with motorist education about bicyclist rights and safety.

 

[sonomasnap]

I got doored 2 years ago. Was on my back and might have been unconscious for a few seconds. When I got up I was so ****ed and afraid I might knock someone out that I grabbed my bike and started walking away. The driver left and only then did I see that my top and down tube had cracked.

I spoke to a cyclist that is a lawyer and he said I was an idiot not to get their info. Instant $10K at minimum.

Hope you got their info and if you are in NY I have a lawyer for you.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I got doored 2 years ago. Was on my back and might have been unconscious for a few seconds. When I got up I was so ****ed and afraid I might knock someone out that I grabbed my bike and started walking away. The driver left and only then did I see that my top and down tube had cracked.

I spoke to a cyclist that is a lawyer and he said I was an idiot not to get their info. Instant $10K at minimum.

Hope you got their info and if you are in NY I have a lawyer for you.

$10K would be nice, but I'm not sure it's worth the pain and hassle of getting doored, not to mention the risk of getting killed (doorings are usually fatal when the cyclist swerves or is forced out in front of overtaking traffic).

So, I prefer and recommend to just not ride in the door zone, period (yes, this is always possible - see my previous posts in this thread).

 

[Francois the Postman]

Not in places where the bike lane is between the curb and parked cars.

 

[Martin318is]

I spoke to a cyclist that is a lawyer and he said I was an idiot not to get their info. Instant $10K at minimum.

Personally, I think that this type of thing is what is wrong with the US legal system. Unless the damage to your bike and your medical bills add up to $10k or more, why exactly do you deserve that kind of money?

Mental/emotional hardship or whatever is just a pathetic money grab by parasitic lawyers. You think I am wrong? Wait until you are theoretically 'responsible' for someone slipping and landing on their behnind - and then sues you for $100K+ - and your insurer points to the clause that they put in the contract to get them out of the claim.

<Rant over> if anyone thinks the legal conversation is worth pursuing, create a new thread rather than continue on this one.

In my case, I got a quote for fixing/replacing the bike, saw a doc and got checked out, and put in a combined insurance claim against his insurer for the bike damage plus the $25 doctor visit.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Not in places where the bike lane is between the curb and parked cars.

Sure it is. You ride out in the street in stead of in the bike lane. If you get a ticket, you fight it on grounds that the legally mandated bike lane was unsafe.

While you're at it, join every bicycling advocacy group you can and voice your strong opinion against such horrible facilities. The door zone issue isn't even the worst of it.

Don't ride here!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Protected_bikelane_1st_Av_jeh.jpg

 

[frenchfry]

I was riding in a MARKED bicycle lane. I wasn't on the driver side of the car, I was to the left of a car that was itself in the traffic lane. the only way I could have passed to the right of the car would be to ride into oncoming traffic.

In the small city I live in, they recently painted bike lanes directly beside streetside parking. When you consider that the width of the parking is 15cm too small for even a mid-sized European car (most of the parked cars encroach the bike lane) and the bike lane is only 90cm wide, this is a recipe for getting doored. Luckily it is directly in front of the hospital.

 

[frenchfry]

Ok I'll give you a hypothetical.

You're in the bike lane and you approach a large number of parked cars. Their door zones extend over the bike lane. You could move into the traffic but the traffic is heavy and travelling much faster than you. Moving into the traffic will cause major congestion and plenty of anger. There is not enough room for the traffic to get around you once you have moved out of the bike lane but you have no doubt some frustrated driver will try anyway. Moving into the traffic will carry a risk just as staying in the bike lane will carry a risk. What would you do?

Move to Holland?

 

[Le breton]

painted bike lanes

In the small city I live in, they recently painted bike lanes directly .....

A number of years ago (1995) I had made an appointment at the Vitus workshop in St-Etienne
to get my down tube glued back in place.

Having taken another bike with me I had a nice time biking around the Forez mountains/hills all day.

As I was coming back to get my bike, a few km from the factory,
I used the bike lane which was painted on the RHS of the road.
However it just had started to rain very lightly and I soon had to leave that lane
as the wheel friction going uphill was insufficient and my rear wheel was slipping
at each pedal stroke! (which of course made me realize how dangerous those lanes could be when wet)

By the way, in France the use of most bike lanes is only optional (square blue sign)
as hardly any of them meet the legal standards. It's up to the local mayor to make them compulsory (round blue sign),
but then he can be sued in the event of any accident.

BTW, even though the warranty was over, I didn't have to pay VITUS anything for the gluing job.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

painted lanes can get slippery indeed, but most of the time they get somekind of treatment with little stones in the paint that make sure it's got a real good friction (based on some hills around St Tropez and my house )