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Endurance exercise is essentially a state of cardiac volume overload. The adaptive response is increased myocardial thickness and increased ventricular volume which results in greater cardiac output measured in liters per minute or minute volume. A normal human can perhaps sustain 25litres per minute, a top athlete 50litres like indurain. The cardiac muscle is also conducting the electrical impulse or depolarization wave from the sinus node, and a great change in muscle volume and distance which the signal needs to travel increases the risk of aberration, especially the atrial chambers can develope ancillary depolarization nodes which produce chaos and fibrillation/flutters. PEDs would probably contribute to the likelihood of this occurring either by increasing training overload possible or by decreasing threshold stimulus need for depolarization by sympaticomimetics (beta agonist fx). But I think the list is relatively short and to be expected from a sport with thousands of professional athletes. The cardiac arrest and death was almost certainly congenital anomaly or familial hypercholesterolomi or something similar.
Re:
I would agree in principle, but it’s important to mention that circulation can cause problems with “wiring” so to speak. An infarction kills the myocardial cells and leaves an area of fibrous connective tissue which will have a different potential than healthy cells, this may cause aberrant depolarization and ventricular arrhythmia and even fibrillation and death and is a common problem in heart attacks (why defibrillators work, resets entire muscle to same potential again).
The heart is unique amongst organs in that it supplies itself with blood from outside and in, but it only gets blood during diastolic (relaxing) phase as the pressure gradient is zero or negative while it’s contracting. Thus it’s susceptible to endocardium (innermost layer of the heart) infractions when the walls get too thick. So training may in fact cause, in the predisposed, conduction disease secondary to vascular pathology.
Merckx index said:
I would agree in principle, but it’s important to mention that circulation can cause problems with “wiring” so to speak. An infarction kills the myocardial cells and leaves an area of fibrous connective tissue which will have a different potential than healthy cells, this may cause aberrant depolarization and ventricular arrhythmia and even fibrillation and death and is a common problem in heart attacks (why defibrillators work, resets entire muscle to same potential again).
The heart is unique amongst organs in that it supplies itself with blood from outside and in, but it only gets blood during diastolic (relaxing) phase as the pressure gradient is zero or negative while it’s contracting. Thus it’s susceptible to endocardium (innermost layer of the heart) infractions when the walls get too thick. So training may in fact cause, in the predisposed, conduction disease secondary to vascular pathology.
Hartthijs de Vries, on Rabo continental for 2015-2016 and SEG 2017, signed with Roompot in 2018 retires immediately because of his heart.
I do remember that Peter Winnen wrote in one of his books about a heart testing, where there was only 1 rider on the team confirmed to not have any cardiac problems. That rider was never named, but because it is then told that this rider got addicted to amphetamines after his career it's not that hard to believe that he is talking about Johan van der Velde. As they were on the same team, that must have been 1986 or so.
I do remember that Peter Winnen wrote in one of his books about a heart testing, where there was only 1 rider on the team confirmed to not have any cardiac problems. That rider was never named, but because it is then told that this rider got addicted to amphetamines after his career it's not that hard to believe that he is talking about Johan van der Velde. As they were on the same team, that must have been 1986 or so.
Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor
I can't speak for elite endurance athletes as I wouldn't have any idea why so many, particularly young athletes, are having heart problems. Could be medical drug-induced as the drugs these days have so many side-effects and many of safety studies are industry-funded (as well as buried studies in lot of cases). And IMO, with the FDA a subsidiary of Big Pharma and a promoter of destructive drugs, anything is possible (I lost a family member a few years ago to drug-induced organ failure).
My take is intense endurance exercise is beneficial for the cardiovascular system and improves stroke volume & lowers RHR. And from a new study it's clear that high-intensity interval training (HIIT) at >90% VO2max has a much more positive influence on gene transcripts & improved cardio-metobolic rate than less intense, lower VO2max type excercise. And in this study a greater number of genes were influenced with the older middle-aged test group than the younger bucks - which is good for us old cats!
As an avid runner in my late 50s I've been doing HIIT for over 30 yrs. Though I do lower mileage now and cross train more on a bike due to age-related chronic injuries, about half of my training is HIIT related. I haven't had any cardiovascular problems and even had a treadmill test a few years ago. RHR is very low for my age.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/23/well/move/the-best-exercise-for-aging-muscles.html?mc=aud_dev&mcid=keywee&mccr=domdesk&kwp_0=619189&kwp_4=2200908&kwp_1=919655&referer=http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8581110
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28273480
I can't speak for elite endurance athletes as I wouldn't have any idea why so many, particularly young athletes, are having heart problems. Could be medical drug-induced as the drugs these days have so many side-effects and many of safety studies are industry-funded (as well as buried studies in lot of cases). And IMO, with the FDA a subsidiary of Big Pharma and a promoter of destructive drugs, anything is possible (I lost a family member a few years ago to drug-induced organ failure).
My take is intense endurance exercise is beneficial for the cardiovascular system and improves stroke volume & lowers RHR. And from a new study it's clear that high-intensity interval training (HIIT) at >90% VO2max has a much more positive influence on gene transcripts & improved cardio-metobolic rate than less intense, lower VO2max type excercise. And in this study a greater number of genes were influenced with the older middle-aged test group than the younger bucks - which is good for us old cats!
As an avid runner in my late 50s I've been doing HIIT for over 30 yrs. Though I do lower mileage now and cross train more on a bike due to age-related chronic injuries, about half of my training is HIIT related. I haven't had any cardiovascular problems and even had a treadmill test a few years ago. RHR is very low for my age.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/23/well/move/the-best-exercise-for-aging-muscles.html?mc=aud_dev&mcid=keywee&mccr=domdesk&kwp_0=619189&kwp_4=2200908&kwp_1=919655&referer=http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8581110
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28273480
An iron man out here died of 'athletes heart' recently. This article includes a doctor's insight.
http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/lifestyle/why-did-fit-former-ironman-dean-mercers-heart-fail/news-story/d8b3debc78b34de1d3cbc5264a987f10
I think I have an arrhythmia.It usually happens when my pulse rate is low, and I get a big thud in my chest all of a sudden. But it's happened during exercise too, and it's quite disconcerting. I know caffeine and stress promote it. I asked the hospital about it and that did an ECG and said my heart is great. It annoys me because it makes me self-conscious and anxious doing high intensity exercise. Very much negates the endorphin high that i seek out in exercise.
http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/lifestyle/why-did-fit-former-ironman-dean-mercers-heart-fail/news-story/d8b3debc78b34de1d3cbc5264a987f10
I think I have an arrhythmia.It usually happens when my pulse rate is low, and I get a big thud in my chest all of a sudden. But it's happened during exercise too, and it's quite disconcerting. I know caffeine and stress promote it. I asked the hospital about it and that did an ECG and said my heart is great. It annoys me because it makes me self-conscious and anxious doing high intensity exercise. Very much negates the endorphin high that i seek out in exercise.
Caffeine and alcohol are toxic to the body, that's why people get high from them as the adrenals are trying to remove the substance through the kidneys, which results in a temporary adrenaline boost. On the long term this leads to chronic dehydration and adrenal fatigue, which might or might not be apparent to the user as it's usually a very slow, gradual decline in the quality of life ever since the first childhood dose of a hot cocoa drink. Later in life this can lead to many side effects like panic attacks or arrhythmias, as when the sodium/potassium ratio in cells gets out of balance muscle activity is immediately affected.
"Athlete's heart" is another condition which relates to (as in 'chronic stress') but not entirely caused by this. A carbohydrate-based diet induces a general 'high' which gives immediate energy that the person wants to spend right away. When this is coupled with exercise that burns mostly carbs, the effect is multiplied and the heart muscles get weakened over the years due to this overusage. In general a low carb diet is preferable (not Atkins), exercise has to be long distance+low intensity (fat burning zone) with the occasional bursts of high intensitiy intervals. This type of diet high in saturated fats also protects one from high cholesterol.
"Athlete's heart" is another condition which relates to (as in 'chronic stress') but not entirely caused by this. A carbohydrate-based diet induces a general 'high' which gives immediate energy that the person wants to spend right away. When this is coupled with exercise that burns mostly carbs, the effect is multiplied and the heart muscles get weakened over the years due to this overusage. In general a low carb diet is preferable (not Atkins), exercise has to be long distance+low intensity (fat burning zone) with the occasional bursts of high intensitiy intervals. This type of diet high in saturated fats also protects one from high cholesterol.
I would have thought the high you get from alcohol would at least partially be related to the lowering of adrenaline. At least in people who drink to alleviate stress. Alcohol makes me feel relaxed. Caffeine makes me feel agitated and anxious. Caffeine and alcohol effect me in completely opposite ways. Haven't there been studies suggesting that a moderated consumption of alcohol is good for the heart?
Generally its accepted that anything that causes vaso dilation and/or lowering of the blood pressure is good for the heart...obviously you can go too far and cause episodes of fainting etc but pretty much all heart conditions are medicated with drugs to slow the rate, reduce the force of the pump and lower BP...stimulants do the opposite and in large doses or with chronic use will put too much pre load on the heart, raise BP, make someone a stroke risk and reduce elasticity of the blood vessels.
I'm not really interested in studies or doctors as they usually concentrate on specific separated parts and the body doesn't work like that. Holistic stuff has much more to it.
High blood pressure is caused by too much salt in the blood attached to a lot of water. Why is that salt cannot leave the blood and enter the cells? Now that can have a myriad of causes which I won't enumerate here.
Caffeine and alcohol are diuretics due to their toxic nature. However, if the person is dehydrated (has adrenal fatigue) then the kidneys cannot help so alcohol must be removed by the liver which slows down other metabolic functions as the toxin removal is first priority of the body at this point. So this results in a fake calming effect.
This is why younger people get the adrenaline boost because they're not as dehydrated as ones over thirty.
High blood pressure is caused by too much salt in the blood attached to a lot of water. Why is that salt cannot leave the blood and enter the cells? Now that can have a myriad of causes which I won't enumerate here.
Caffeine and alcohol are diuretics due to their toxic nature. However, if the person is dehydrated (has adrenal fatigue) then the kidneys cannot help so alcohol must be removed by the liver which slows down other metabolic functions as the toxin removal is first priority of the body at this point. So this results in a fake calming effect.
This is why younger people get the adrenaline boost because they're not as dehydrated as ones over thirty.
Re: Re:
That's an acrobatic leap of logic worthy of sniper. Chapeau for saying something beyond stupid.sars1981 said:
Re: Re:
I was referring to B. But Chapeau to me for not knowing what chapeau means.
fmk_RoI said:
I was referring to B. But Chapeau to me for not knowing what chapeau means.
Re: Re:
But his ghost still lingers, sometimes...
sniper's dead, dude, sniper's dead.ScienceIsCool said:
But his ghost still lingers, sometimes...
Re:
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, everything in bold is nonsense.
bebellion2 said:
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, everything in bold is nonsense.
Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor
No offence but that person was seriously or life threatening ill long before recieving any medications that might have killed him or her.
Also, the Big Pharma conspiracy stuff is ***, yeah they do sloppy research sometimes, they cherry pick with publication-bias, p-hacking etc to post hoc rationalize millions or billions of investment in failed products, but they are safe. Ever heard of the FDA? Each country in the world have a similr government organ that individually assess medications constantly.
Also, all commonly used medications are indipendently researched by universities, hospitals and NGO's and governments around the world and assessed for safety by vast epidemiological data. If you think an MD would ever knowingly give a patient dangerous drugs for financial gains or pressure from "big pharma", you are delusional, extremely cynical or just a conspiratory nut.
Lastly, HIT training and other high intensity training shoud be done less as you age as the severe stress may overload compromised organs and uncover vascular/cardiac disease. The general consensus is that you in fact gain very little in terms of healt and longevity by training hard or high volume. Brisk walking, some strenght training and good diet is probably optimal for health.
Nomad said:
No offence but that person was seriously or life threatening ill long before recieving any medications that might have killed him or her.
Also, the Big Pharma conspiracy stuff is ***, yeah they do sloppy research sometimes, they cherry pick with publication-bias, p-hacking etc to post hoc rationalize millions or billions of investment in failed products, but they are safe. Ever heard of the FDA? Each country in the world have a similr government organ that individually assess medications constantly.
Also, all commonly used medications are indipendently researched by universities, hospitals and NGO's and governments around the world and assessed for safety by vast epidemiological data. If you think an MD would ever knowingly give a patient dangerous drugs for financial gains or pressure from "big pharma", you are delusional, extremely cynical or just a conspiratory nut.
Lastly, HIT training and other high intensity training shoud be done less as you age as the severe stress may overload compromised organs and uncover vascular/cardiac disease. The general consensus is that you in fact gain very little in terms of healt and longevity by training hard or high volume. Brisk walking, some strenght training and good diet is probably optimal for health.
Re:
Magnets, how do they work?
Seriously, just stop, you are making people misinformed, more confused and detract from the overal value of this forum with your posts.
bebellion2 said:
Magnets, how do they work?
Seriously, just stop, you are making people misinformed, more confused and detract from the overal value of this forum with your posts.
Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor
Do you know what it's like to watch a loved one die of pancreatic & renal failure? She was a runner & cyclist and was very healthy prior to her illness. Now my children and I live in depression because of a preventable death!
And you bring up the FDA?...please. Big Pharma runs the FDA - they PAY the FDA a fee to approve their industry-funded safey studied drugs! Newsflash: the normal administration of prescription drugs are now the 4th leading cause of death in the U.S.! (128,000 deaths & 2.7 million serious ADR reactions annually):
http://ethics.harvard.edu/b...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/05/09/new-safety-risks-detected-in-one-third-of-fda-approved-drugs/?sw_bypass=true&utm_term=.350772a5fbaf
What's hypocritical here is the FDA and it's medical system's allies will go after dietary supplements, demean “unproven remedies,” and generally take every possible opportunity to warn people about “alternatives,” on the basis that they aren’t scientifically supported. Meanwhile, the very drugs these "experts" are promoting, and certifying as safe and effective, are killing and injuring people at a staggering rate. It's non-stop PR & marketing on the glories of medical drugs (seen many of ad naseum drug commercials dominating the air waves - it's all about profit for pharma).
And how about corruption within the FDA:
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/10524-former-fda-reviewer-speaks-out-about-intimidation-retaliation-and-marginalizing-of-safety
How about the disaster with Xarelto and alleged cover-up of safety issues:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/ct-xarelto-internal-bleeding-20170425-story.html
And MEDICAL ERROR is now the *3rd* leading cause of death in the U.S.! Unbelievable..so much iatrogenic damage and very little accountability!
https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/05/03/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death/
http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139.full
Btw, this isn't your stupid "conspiracy theory" claims - these are mainstream sources. So don't throw that conspiracy crap at me!
No offense? Damn right I'm offended! You could have asked for some details instead of that pretentious wiseass one liner of yours! (are you a pharma shill or what?). FWIW, my wife of 20 yrs suffered from a vaccine-induced autoimmune disease which was verified by her treating rheumatologists (Hep-B vaccine). The disease-modifying anti-rheumatic drugs (DMARDs) & antibody therapy drugs that she was treated with put her into stage-5 renal failure (verified by the nephrologist). She also sustained ACE inhibitor-induced pancreatic necrosis (verified by her teating GI doctors and the primary cause of her death!). These were all the result of the normal administration of the drugs. And the potential damage caused by these drugs are documented in the journals.Oude Geuze said:
Do you know what it's like to watch a loved one die of pancreatic & renal failure? She was a runner & cyclist and was very healthy prior to her illness. Now my children and I live in depression because of a preventable death!
And you bring up the FDA?...please. Big Pharma runs the FDA - they PAY the FDA a fee to approve their industry-funded safey studied drugs! Newsflash: the normal administration of prescription drugs are now the 4th leading cause of death in the U.S.! (128,000 deaths & 2.7 million serious ADR reactions annually):
http://ethics.harvard.edu/b...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/05/09/new-safety-risks-detected-in-one-third-of-fda-approved-drugs/?sw_bypass=true&utm_term=.350772a5fbaf
What's hypocritical here is the FDA and it's medical system's allies will go after dietary supplements, demean “unproven remedies,” and generally take every possible opportunity to warn people about “alternatives,” on the basis that they aren’t scientifically supported. Meanwhile, the very drugs these "experts" are promoting, and certifying as safe and effective, are killing and injuring people at a staggering rate. It's non-stop PR & marketing on the glories of medical drugs (seen many of ad naseum drug commercials dominating the air waves - it's all about profit for pharma).
And how about corruption within the FDA:
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/10524-former-fda-reviewer-speaks-out-about-intimidation-retaliation-and-marginalizing-of-safety
How about the disaster with Xarelto and alleged cover-up of safety issues:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/ct-xarelto-internal-bleeding-20170425-story.html
And MEDICAL ERROR is now the *3rd* leading cause of death in the U.S.! Unbelievable..so much iatrogenic damage and very little accountability!
https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/05/03/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death/
http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139.full
Btw, this isn't your stupid "conspiracy theory" claims - these are mainstream sources. So don't throw that conspiracy crap at me!
Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor
"Should be done less as you age?" Lol. Did you even bother to read the study in "Cell Metabolism" that I linked? Do you even run or cycle at all? Are you anywhere near my age (57) and have been training for decades? I've been running/coaching for over 30 yrs with a lot of that being higher intensity training (>90% VO2max).
I had a treatmill test a few years back and went off the chart for my age on the METs score. The cardiologist even said high intensity training was okay to do at my age. His concern, as I recall, was the risk of CV damage from chronic longer-sustained intense efforts over greater distances, i.e., marathons, ultras, Ironmans and undiagnosed pre-existing conditions. In fact, he was a runner himself! I've got a RHR in the low 40s, which many other hard training runners & cyclists in my age group also have. It's not unusual when you have improved stroke volume from the higher intensity training and the heart doesn't have to work very hard at rest (geez...who would have thought. Lol).
In the Grandmasters running club I belong to we have many old cats training very hard in their 50s, 60s, 70s & even some into their 80s! Many are accomplished top age-group competitors. No evidence of any cardiovascular problems with these folks. Some orthopedic problems from degenerative changes in the joints from previous acute injuries/surgeries but no CV or other health related problems that has been revealed. And nutiriton and some strength training is extremely important for the aging body.
HIIT helps slow down the aging process:
https://lifehacker.com/high-intensity-interval-training-helps-slow-down-the-ag-1794194445
0/10Oude Geuze said:
"Should be done less as you age?" Lol. Did you even bother to read the study in "Cell Metabolism" that I linked? Do you even run or cycle at all? Are you anywhere near my age (57) and have been training for decades? I've been running/coaching for over 30 yrs with a lot of that being higher intensity training (>90% VO2max).
I had a treatmill test a few years back and went off the chart for my age on the METs score. The cardiologist even said high intensity training was okay to do at my age. His concern, as I recall, was the risk of CV damage from chronic longer-sustained intense efforts over greater distances, i.e., marathons, ultras, Ironmans and undiagnosed pre-existing conditions. In fact, he was a runner himself! I've got a RHR in the low 40s, which many other hard training runners & cyclists in my age group also have. It's not unusual when you have improved stroke volume from the higher intensity training and the heart doesn't have to work very hard at rest (geez...who would have thought. Lol).
In the Grandmasters running club I belong to we have many old cats training very hard in their 50s, 60s, 70s & even some into their 80s! Many are accomplished top age-group competitors. No evidence of any cardiovascular problems with these folks. Some orthopedic problems from degenerative changes in the joints from previous acute injuries/surgeries but no CV or other health related problems that has been revealed. And nutiriton and some strength training is extremely important for the aging body.
HIIT helps slow down the aging process:
https://lifehacker.com/high-intensity-interval-training-helps-slow-down-the-ag-1794194445
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