hfer07 said:
That's what I've always believed. I'm excited to see Carlos coming to the grand tours extremely strong this year.
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That's what I've always believed. I'm excited to see Carlos coming to the grand tours extremely strong this year.
I'd be very surprised if Sastre is clean, Here's a nice assessment of his Alpe d'Huez climbing performances from le grimpeur.
"Secondly, it puts Carlos Sastre’s 39′30″ ride at this year’s Tour into perspective. We might assume that, in this supposed new era of cycling, where rider speeds in the mountains appear to be mostly, if not uniformly, slower that a sub-40 minute ascent of l’Alpe is exceptional. Sastre appeared untouchable on the climb, and the numbers confirm it. The chasing group may have been slowed by the tactics of the Schleck brothers but, free to ride to his limit, Sastre rode at a level not far short of the top-ten list and about the same as the performances recorded in the early 90s. Cyclismag also noted that Sastre clocked sub-40′ times in 2004 and 2006, which can only lead to the conclusion that he is indeed one of the very best climbers in cycling.
This has naturally led to much speculation about Sastre, given how sensitive we are in current times over exceptional performances. Cyclismag notes that “Sastre ne semble pas fatiguer après plusieurs ascensions“, he is not tired after several climbs, showing how his three times for l’Alpe are quite similar, despite two being at the end of long road stages and one in the ITT of 2004. By comparison, Moncoutié and Goubert recorded times this year around 3-4 minutes slower than in 2004. Somewhat cryptically, Cyclismag concludes that “L’effet de la fatigue est clairement visible pour ces deux coureurs au contraire de Sastre.” Cyclismag also notes that Sastre’s ride was “du même acabit“, directly comparable to the performance by Ricco and Piepoli in the Pyrenees - now tainted by use of the third-generation EPO drug Micera. At least for now, more concrete conclusions on this debate remain elusive."
http://le-grimpeur.net/blog/archives/52
"Secondly, it puts Carlos Sastre’s 39′30″ ride at this year’s Tour into perspective. We might assume that, in this supposed new era of cycling, where rider speeds in the mountains appear to be mostly, if not uniformly, slower that a sub-40 minute ascent of l’Alpe is exceptional. Sastre appeared untouchable on the climb, and the numbers confirm it. The chasing group may have been slowed by the tactics of the Schleck brothers but, free to ride to his limit, Sastre rode at a level not far short of the top-ten list and about the same as the performances recorded in the early 90s. Cyclismag also noted that Sastre clocked sub-40′ times in 2004 and 2006, which can only lead to the conclusion that he is indeed one of the very best climbers in cycling.
This has naturally led to much speculation about Sastre, given how sensitive we are in current times over exceptional performances. Cyclismag notes that “Sastre ne semble pas fatiguer après plusieurs ascensions“, he is not tired after several climbs, showing how his three times for l’Alpe are quite similar, despite two being at the end of long road stages and one in the ITT of 2004. By comparison, Moncoutié and Goubert recorded times this year around 3-4 minutes slower than in 2004. Somewhat cryptically, Cyclismag concludes that “L’effet de la fatigue est clairement visible pour ces deux coureurs au contraire de Sastre.” Cyclismag also notes that Sastre’s ride was “du même acabit“, directly comparable to the performance by Ricco and Piepoli in the Pyrenees - now tainted by use of the third-generation EPO drug Micera. At least for now, more concrete conclusions on this debate remain elusive."
http://le-grimpeur.net/blog/archives/52
I'm starting to view this like the Matrix movies - you have the blue pill or the red pill. I went for the blue pill.
I think he's a great guy, seems very likable sportsman. I like the way he rides, he's a great climber, and a confident team leader. I hope he can win more races and will probably be cheering for him in the Tour against AC and the Astana machine.
As to doping? Come on people. How many Operation Puertos or Bernard Kohl's do we need to hear from before we just keep our eyes open and watch anyway? Okay, I'll say this, I suppose it's quite possible that Sastre is one of the cleaner riders these days. How's that? Is that a fair response?
As to doping? Come on people. How many Operation Puertos or Bernard Kohl's do we need to hear from before we just keep our eyes open and watch anyway? Okay, I'll say this, I suppose it's quite possible that Sastre is one of the cleaner riders these days. How's that? Is that a fair response?
Alpe d'Huez said:
you not watched overcoming then..
i like his riding, but as a person, my god, compulsive whiner.. i dont think ive ever seen one person moan so much in 90 minutes, my knee hurts, i dont like that, i dont feel well, i want different breakfast, my bikes uncomfortable.. good god.. enough to drive anyone mental.. could have just been edited that way of course...
Yeah Overcoming went for way too long. In saying that, seeing Jens Voigt rant in English is priceless, WAG.
Alpe d'Huez said:
He's close to fully doped... BUT >> he either is less talented undoped than the best couple of guys or he does not respond as well to drug therapy. Or you could be right, he might just not be on as much gear.
"Lance" has had special info/ consulting from Ferrari. Basso in my opinion is not as heavily doped as Lance. But Di Luca and Menchov had F-ing all beat this time around. No Italians busted for doping during the Tour of Italy....? LOL
dimspace said:you not watched overcoming then..
could have just been edited that way of course...
In a mild defense of Sastre in Overcoming, he was depressed during its filming and contemplating quitting the sport because of the death of his brother-in-law Jose Maria Jimenez. When you're down, all you can do is think and talk negatively.
Didn't watch Overcoming. Didn't seem as appealing to me. Hell on Wheels was great though. The Quest was pretty good too. I'm still a big fan of Jorgen Leth and older stuff. Greatest Show on Earth is my fav.
Sorry, but basing accusations on skin deep(at best) evidence bothers me, as it removes credibility from the anti doping debate. No worse, it makes a mockery of those who actually worry about doping in cycling.
Sorensen and Julic? Please do elaborate.
Program? That a quite interesting claim considering that all evidence(unless you got insider knowledge) go against this.
When has bad journalism become doping? oO
Only that one year had Evans beaten Sastre by that amount of time, all previous years he hadn't.
In fact, in '06 at an even more similar stage Sastre rode just like he did in '08.
But noo let's forget all the facts about the turmoil Chicken and Contador made first forcing Sastre to make a full stage breakaway and that Sastre didn't have anything to ride for in the iTT Phil mentions, because the competition infront and behind him were too far away.
Heck let's even forget that the iTT bike he had been spending so much time on was banned just before the Tour.
Old Danish saying: A thief think every man steals.
But it's not evidence!
Yeah the moon landing hoax theory also sounded convincing till one began using one's head.
There are important things to keep in mind that much heavier riders like Riis and Armstrong are far ahead of Sastre when comparing those climbing times.
Another thing to note is that one can't just look at one stage isolated, it removes the very point of exhausting 3 week stage races. Riis and Armstrong when setting those times had already pumped out a lot of watt on previous stages.
I bet we all by now know how Sastre sandbags avoiding unnecessary acceleration and how well he was protected(Andy absorbed the attacks).
No clue why the person felt a need to underline that Fränk had won on l'Alpe d'Huez, it was in a breakway powered by Voigt and Z-man.
And for the Ricco comparison. It would have been nice had it been mentioned that the wattage "calculations" "assumed" that all the rider weights were 75Kg(or was it 72? Well it killed the entire idea of calculating watts). And to make it even worse, forgot all about Sastre's attack was from the bottom where the others attacked later with a much higher acceleration to achieve the same wattage.
Looking to the right, I see many commercials for bike parts and can't help wondering why so many fans of the sport forget how much bikes have changed in 20 years. A steep climb specialist like Sastre on a lighter bike with better gearing and a softer yet more aerodynamic frame was beaten by a much heavier Riis by more than a minute. Doping isn't what it used to be.
Why do people buy that a rider with such an ugly almost drunk like riding style like Kohl suddenly can keep up with the very best(Sastre, Evans, Menchov,..) who we through the years have shown gradient improvement?
Why do we buy that Schumacher can be in breakaways every single day and still beat "big leg and much better balance on the bike" Fabian with 20sec even though Fabian had taken the last couple of days with ease dropping minutes on flat stages(where Schumacher as usual was in a breakway, even though it also were the days where the peloton rode the fastest).
Why do we buy the incredible accelerations from the Cobra, when he the previous days has wasted energy catching back up to the peloton after having done some rather stupid mistakes?
Actually I didn't, because they were out of the blue and rode like pre '06 + a Landis The only 3 riders I accused(on the CSC forum, yup I'm a fan) of being doped and sure enough they were caught.
Not all negative, had a pillow fight.
But yes, he was sad due to the much too early death of Jimenez, who died from an overdoses hence the long speech about how money and fame can hurt those who are unprepared. It's also the reason why Sastre chose Cérvelo over money.
But those two have never been good friends; Riis didn't find Sastre, Riis was never sastre's DS and the two were polar opposites when it came to training.
Riis is obsessed with technolgy where as Sastre is more about listening to his body. In the Overcoming you can actually see the two arguing on a training climb because Sastre isn't going as fast as Riis' watt calculating devices says he can.
----->8
Sastre isn't riding faster than he did in '06, but back then Basso with a worse riding style beat Sastre by minutes on the steep climbs and in the TTs.
Now in '09 Basso is a bit slower than Sastre(wasting energy on futile attacks).
Is that a sign of doping? Is Evans slowing down after having taken two weeks of pounding a sign of doping? Is the stand out performance of the CERA users a sign of the rest of the peloton being doped? Is Lausanne Laboratory's statement that only 10% of the riders had odd(as in unspecified artificially manipulated) blood values a bad sign?
I hope the anti doping debate will become more constructive so the UCI no longer can chose to ignore our fears as if we were no better than mad cat(in bag) women on crack.
Bala Verde said:
Sorensen and Julic? Please do elaborate.
BroDeal said:
Program? That a quite interesting claim considering that all evidence(unless you got insider knowledge) go against this.
BigBoat said:
When has bad journalism become doping? oO
Only that one year had Evans beaten Sastre by that amount of time, all previous years he hadn't.
In fact, in '06 at an even more similar stage Sastre rode just like he did in '08.
But noo let's forget all the facts about the turmoil Chicken and Contador made first forcing Sastre to make a full stage breakaway and that Sastre didn't have anything to ride for in the iTT Phil mentions, because the competition infront and behind him were too far away.
Heck let's even forget that the iTT bike he had been spending so much time on was banned just before the Tour.
BigBoat said:
Old Danish saying: A thief think every man steals.
But it's not evidence!
biker jk said:
Yeah the moon landing hoax theory also sounded convincing till one began using one's head.
There are important things to keep in mind that much heavier riders like Riis and Armstrong are far ahead of Sastre when comparing those climbing times.
Another thing to note is that one can't just look at one stage isolated, it removes the very point of exhausting 3 week stage races. Riis and Armstrong when setting those times had already pumped out a lot of watt on previous stages.
I bet we all by now know how Sastre sandbags avoiding unnecessary acceleration and how well he was protected(Andy absorbed the attacks).
No clue why the person felt a need to underline that Fränk had won on l'Alpe d'Huez, it was in a breakway powered by Voigt and Z-man.
And for the Ricco comparison.
It would have been nice had it been mentioned that the wattage "calculations" "assumed" that all the rider weights were 75Kg(or was it 72? Well it killed the entire idea of calculating watts). And to make it even worse, forgot all about Sastre's attack was from the bottom where the others attacked later with a much higher acceleration to achieve the same wattage.Looking to the right, I see many commercials for bike parts and can't help wondering why so many fans of the sport forget how much bikes have changed in 20 years. A steep climb specialist like Sastre on a lighter bike with better gearing and a softer yet more aerodynamic frame was beaten by a much heavier Riis by more than a minute. Doping isn't what it used to be.
Alpe d'Huez said:
Why do people buy that a rider with such an ugly almost drunk like riding style like Kohl suddenly can keep up with the very best(Sastre, Evans, Menchov,..) who we through the years have shown gradient improvement?
Why do we buy that Schumacher can be in breakaways every single day and still beat "big leg and much better balance on the bike" Fabian with 20sec even though Fabian had taken the last couple of days with ease dropping minutes on flat stages(where Schumacher as usual was in a breakway, even though it also were the days where the peloton rode the fastest).
Why do we buy the incredible accelerations from the Cobra, when he the previous days has wasted energy catching back up to the peloton after having done some rather stupid mistakes?
Actually I didn't, because they were out of the blue and rode like pre '06 + a Landis
The only 3 riders I accused(on the CSC forum, yup I'm a fan) of being doped and sure enough they were caught.elapid said:
Not all negative, had a pillow fight.
But yes, he was sad due to the much too early death of Jimenez, who died from an overdoses hence the long speech about how money and fame can hurt those who are unprepared. It's also the reason why Sastre chose Cérvelo over money.
Escarabajo said:
But those two have never been good friends; Riis didn't find Sastre, Riis was never sastre's DS and the two were polar opposites when it came to training.
Riis is obsessed with technolgy where as Sastre is more about listening to his body. In the Overcoming you can actually see the two arguing on a training climb because Sastre isn't going as fast as Riis' watt calculating devices says he can.
----->8
Sastre isn't riding faster than he did in '06, but back then Basso with a worse riding style beat Sastre by minutes on the steep climbs and in the TTs.
Now in '09 Basso is a bit slower than Sastre(wasting energy on futile attacks).
Is that a sign of doping? Is Evans slowing down after having taken two weeks of pounding a sign of doping? Is the stand out performance of the CERA users a sign of the rest of the peloton being doped? Is Lausanne Laboratory's statement that only 10% of the riders had odd(as in unspecified artificially manipulated) blood values a bad sign?
I hope the anti doping debate will become more constructive so the UCI no longer can chose to ignore our fears as if we were no better than mad cat(in bag) women on crack.
OctaBech said:
The way the UCI administers cycling I'm more fearful of all those false negatives (by setting the bar too high for a confirmed doping charge, eg. Ricco, Kohl) than false negatives. We now have Pat McQuaid defending Menchov (did he look him in the eye as he did Contador in the Bruyneel style?) and criticising Kohl for exposing the sham of the bio-passport. The only hoax is the UCI claiming to be serious about catching dopers.
OCTABECH,
You make excellent points. I agree, the highest level of the peloton is ALOT cleaner than years past.(for now anyway). The evidence is there if people bothered to rationally look. I guess its more fun for many to just subjectively guess and speculate based on facial expressions, gut "feelings" and a variety of other absurd metrics - with such anger and passion I might add.(and I thought ignorance was bliss?) For one thing laypeople need to stop throwing around "VAM" without a much better understanding of all the variables involved. I see/hear things like "OMG Vladimir Dimpleburger did a VAM of 1900 on the Col de Fahrtenpass! (7 minutes@ 15%) Hes doped for sure, Parker Mantani couldnt even do 1900 VAM!"
Performances of Sella, Ricco and Schumacher gave a live, up close glimpse of the stark difference between the 'Two speeds'.
You make excellent points. I agree, the highest level of the peloton is ALOT cleaner than years past.(for now anyway). The evidence is there if people bothered to rationally look. I guess its more fun for many to just subjectively guess and speculate based on facial expressions, gut "feelings" and a variety of other absurd metrics - with such anger and passion I might add.(and I thought ignorance was bliss?) For one thing laypeople need to stop throwing around "VAM" without a much better understanding of all the variables involved. I see/hear things like "OMG Vladimir Dimpleburger did a VAM of 1900 on the Col de Fahrtenpass! (7 minutes@ 15%) Hes doped for sure, Parker Mantani couldnt even do 1900 VAM!
"Performances of Sella, Ricco and Schumacher gave a live, up close glimpse of the stark difference between the 'Two speeds'.
mr. tibbs said:
jens throughout the film was genius.. his bizarre mealtime explainations about there being 57 varieties of beens had us in stitches.. i never tire of him
really won me over in that film.. it also removed me of all stereotypes i had made about german senses of humour..
Hola Amigos, como estan. Me llamo ALbertiño, amigo de los niños.Hoy hablo en Español, porque me da la gana y para poder explicarme mejor aunque no todos me entiendan.
Carlos Sastre es un ejemplo de juego Limpio. Es tan bueno porque ha sido gregario de muchos grandes corredores y siempre ha podido ser lider de cualquier equipo pero nadie confiaba en el. Carlos Sastre es hoy en día uno de los corredores con mas podiums en las grandes vueltas. Fue el año pasado en en el Alpe dhuez cuando se canso de tanta hipocresia y asumi su papel natural de lider y lo demostro a todo el mundo.
SOlo puedo decir que los que intoxican de suposiciones y prejuicios son los que estan enfermando este deporte tan noble. Este tipo de cuestiones pueden suponer la extinción de nuestro amado deporte. SI queremos conservarlo debemos d luchar contra ello
Carlos Sastre es un ejemplo de juego Limpio. Es tan bueno porque ha sido gregario de muchos grandes corredores y siempre ha podido ser lider de cualquier equipo pero nadie confiaba en el. Carlos Sastre es hoy en día uno de los corredores con mas podiums en las grandes vueltas. Fue el año pasado en en el Alpe dhuez cuando se canso de tanta hipocresia y asumi su papel natural de lider y lo demostro a todo el mundo.
SOlo puedo decir que los que intoxican de suposiciones y prejuicios son los que estan enfermando este deporte tan noble. Este tipo de cuestiones pueden suponer la extinción de nuestro amado deporte. SI queremos conservarlo debemos d luchar contra ello
Duhknow...It's hard these days to believe a man who one the Tour, that's right, the Tour, wasn't getting any "help" whatsoever. Was doing it on bread on water.
And he was a domestique before, so...
Look, I respect the man immensely. Every interview I have read of his, an incredible humanity and nobility is projected by him. I'd like to think he's on nothing. If he is not, then he's a freak, a real freak. I just wouldn't bet my daughter on it. It's my cynicism, I know, but otherwise I'd go back to believing the fairy tales and I'm just too jaded for that.
And he was a domestique before, so...
Look, I respect the man immensely. Every interview I have read of his, an incredible humanity and nobility is projected by him. I'd like to think he's on nothing. If he is not, then he's a freak, a real freak. I just wouldn't bet my daughter on it. It's my cynicism, I know, but otherwise I'd go back to believing the fairy tales and I'm just too jaded for that.
Point taken and agree on the last sentence.hfer07 said:Carlos Sastre's nickname: Don Limpio=Mister clean
It was given to him since riding back in ONCE-- it's everywhere written abroad the media.
As far as him working with a "doctor"-well, he only knows his name and he's paying him well to remain unknown
for the record: I'm aware what has to be done to get results in cycling, but IMHO Carlos seems to me not to DEPEND or to be HOOKED on heavy dope to perform, but rather he uses it to get the edge to get his top level & of course to deal with the level of the others..
I'd say it this way-- He's the "cleanest" among the Dirty level played if the peloton
Thanks.
Thanks Returnofthewolf, those riders did help put things into contrast.
There's one big problem with Kohl's story, he claims to belong in the elite of GT riders. One can't look away from that and believe the rest he says.
The whole problem with anti doping is that it's not enough to conclude the blood has been manipulated, to nail the rider the UCI will have to identify in court the exact product the rider used to manipulate the blood.
The bio passport isn't designed to catch riders, it's to health quarantine riders from participating in races till their blood values return to normal, practically removing most of the effect from doping giving room for clean riders to participate. It's much easier than having to go through the court system which can take years and it hurts the image of the sport less.
But the Biological passport wasn't put into use last year because it wasn't finished. It takes a season to gather data from the riders under different circumstances to make profiles(after all, it's based on profile comparisons).
So Kohl's talk about the passport not catching him is only silly talk.
This doesn't mean the Biological passport won't catch riders, because it will.
It's not cheap to test for doping, but the passport helps singling out the riders with odd values allowing the UCI to concentrate the more specific tests which can be used in court.
It will also block from "re-fills" during GTs, as the magic recovery of red blood cells can be read.
However, I do agree that the UCI isn't as reliable as we could wish for but at least we have the numbers from AFLD, which proved last year that we can trust them.
And they said only 10%(very low number compared to previous years) of the peloton had manipulated blood(again, it's easy to see if blood has been manipulated, the problem is to prove it in court).
And we must keep in mind that not all riders are aiming for the GC, there are TT riders, breakaway riders, sprinters and old riders not feeling ready to quit cycling.
Agreed, if we make accusations without evidence we only end up hurting the sport as much as the riders who dope.
biker jk said:
There's one big problem with Kohl's story, he claims to belong in the elite of GT riders. One can't look away from that and believe the rest he says.
The whole problem with anti doping is that it's not enough to conclude the blood has been manipulated, to nail the rider the UCI will have to identify in court the exact product the rider used to manipulate the blood.
The bio passport isn't designed to catch riders, it's to health quarantine riders from participating in races till their blood values return to normal, practically removing most of the effect from doping giving room for clean riders to participate. It's much easier than having to go through the court system which can take years and it hurts the image of the sport less.
But the Biological passport wasn't put into use last year because it wasn't finished. It takes a season to gather data from the riders under different circumstances to make profiles(after all, it's based on profile comparisons).
So Kohl's talk about the passport not catching him is only silly talk.
This doesn't mean the Biological passport won't catch riders, because it will.
It's not cheap to test for doping, but the passport helps singling out the riders with odd values allowing the UCI to concentrate the more specific tests which can be used in court.
It will also block from "re-fills" during GTs, as the magic recovery of red blood cells can be read.
However, I do agree that the UCI isn't as reliable as we could wish for but at least we have the numbers from AFLD, which proved last year that we can trust them.
And they said only 10%(very low number compared to previous years) of the peloton had manipulated blood(again, it's easy to see if blood has been manipulated, the problem is to prove it in court).
And we must keep in mind that not all riders are aiming for the GC, there are TT riders, breakaway riders, sprinters and old riders not feeling ready to quit cycling.
ALBERTIÑO said:
Agreed, if we make accusations without evidence we only end up hurting the sport as much as the riders who dope.
Hm, yeah, don limpio doesn't work all that well in English now, does it? I bet, Mario Cipollini wouldn't be caught dead with such a nickname.BroDeal said:
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