Cav and Cipo comparison

[sublimit]

Milan-San Remo is not underestimated - it's the biggest Italian one day race. Tom Boonen was never the fastest sprinter of his generation: Petacchi was better. Freire and Zabel were made for these races. Freire is about to retire which means Cavendish has less competition now unless Goss replaces Freire(which could be possible).

Well, I'm certain a few people here dont rate it, but its one of my fave one day races for sure, maybe its a bit dull for the first 180 K or so though like plenty of other races.

 

[BeachBum]

No comparison-- there is no way Cav wins MSR, GW and WRC at age 35.

In terms of generating press for his team, Super Mario has more panache in his pinky toe than Cav will ever have. Cav wins a stage and pretends he's talking on a cell phone-- Mario appears at a Tour start in Italy on a chariot wearing a toga on Caesar's birthday. Cipo gets pulled over on the autostrada for speeding-- on a bike. Let's not forget the 'Eyes Wide Shut' team presentation and his 'Batman' ad for Northwave (http://www.northwave.it/world/adv.php?catid=8 slight OT, but check out a very young Evans as Crocodile Dundee).

 

[ultimobici]

No comparison-- there is no way Cav wins MSR, GW and WRC at age 35.

In terms of generating press for his team, Super Mario has more panache in his pinky toe than Cav will ever have. Cav wins a stage and pretends he's talking on a cell phone-- Mario appears at a Tour start in Italy on a chariot wearing a toga on Caesar's birthday. Cipo gets pulled over on the autostrada for speeding-- on a bike.

Get it right, he was simply pulled over while motorpacing on the Autostrada.

 

[ultimobici]

Milan-San Remo is not underestimated - it's the biggest Italian one day race. Tom Boonen was never the fastest sprinter of his generation: Petacchi was better. Freire and Zabel were made for these races. Freire is about to retire which means Cavendish has less competition now unless Goss replaces Freire(which could be possible).

In the nineties this race didn't end in a bunch sprint like it does nowadays... Hence why Cipollini only won one when he was 35 years old. Plus when the race did end in a bunch sprint Zabel was there.

Cavendish wouldn't have won Milan-San Remo so young if he was a cyclist during the nineties.

How can you say that MSR was not a sprint finish in the 90's when Zabel won bunch sprints twice, came second once and Cipollini's second in 1994 was a bunch sprint?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Get it right, he was simply pulled over while motorpacing on the Autostrada.

why do you want to spoil Cipo`s thunder?

 

[roundabout]

How can you say that MSR was not a sprint finish in the 90's when Zabel won bunch sprints twice, came second once and Cipollini's second in 1994 was a bunch sprint?

I would say that it's undeniable that it's more of a sprinters race now than it was 20 years ago.

Edit: and 1999 second place wasn't in a bunch sprint

 

[delbified]

cipo won with more style than cav, more ermenegildo zegna than braces and doc martens.

 

[La Pandera]

The only comparison that can be made is in the volume and quality of victories. Cavendish will undoubtedly in the end come out the victor but IMO where is the competition? There are no great sprinters left to challenge him at this point. All are either past their primes or feeling their way before reaching their's. Cipo certainly had much more competition, thus making his accomplishments all the more impressive.

As far as panache and style Cipo was one of a kind. While a great sprinter, Cavendish's mouth doesn't match his ability to take the same in return. Balling on the podium after a difficult start to a season was pretty pathetic considering all the big talk and condescending statements directed at his opponents. He shouldn't dish it if he can't take it.

 

[Morbius]

This looks like an appropriate thread to ask this question - apologies if it's been covered elsewhere:

In this article, Cipo says of Cav "He’s one of the absolute very best, even if I’m still convinced that sometimes he wastes his talent,”
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cip...&ns_source=cyclingnews&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

As I can't read the Gazzetta dello Sport article, what was Cipo was referring to when he mentioned wasting his talent?

 

[c&cfan]

This looks like an appropriate thread to ask this question - apologies if it's been covered elsewhere:

In this article, Cipo says of Cav "He’s one of the absolute very best, even if I’m still convinced that sometimes he wastes his talent,”
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cip...&ns_source=cyclingnews&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

As I can't read the Gazzetta dello Sport article, what was Cipo was referring to when he mentioned wasting his talent?

he meant that if cav trained more, if cav cared for the ****ty small stage races, if cav had the balls of contador he would be legendary, a perfect machine.

he has everything to be like that, even a hot/girlfriend so we can see him as one of us, sucessfull machos.

in fact contador is waisting his talent as well. after seeing the guy in that suit, i bet that both of us would be able to double team beyonce.

 

[ultimobici]

I would say that it's undeniable that it's more of a sprinters race now than it was 20 years ago.

Edit: and 1999 second place wasn't in a bunch sprint

Zabel's second place was the result of a bunch sprint. Tchmil just managed to spoil the party by attacking after the Poggio attack of Colombo.

 

[Zweistein]

The only comparison that can be made is in the volume and quality of victories. Cavendish will undoubtedly in the end come out the victor but IMO where is the competition? There are no great sprinters left to challenge him at this point. All are either past their primes or feeling their way before reaching their's. Cipo certainly had much more competition, thus making his accomplishments all the more impressive.

As far as panache and style Cipo was one of a kind. While a great sprinter, Cavendish's mouth doesn't match his ability to take the same in return. Balling on the podium after a difficult start to a season was pretty pathetic considering all the big talk and condescending statements directed at his opponents. He shouldn't dish it if he can't take it.

Teams are better organized and sprints now are faster than they ever have been. Watch bunch sprints of the 80s and 90s if you are skeptical. And Bullcrap, he has no competitors now. He is just railing them so hard that they look like amatuers.

 

[La Pandera]

Teams are better organized and sprints now are faster than they ever have been. Watch bunch sprints of the 80s and 90s if you are skeptical. And Bullcrap, he has no competitors now. He is just railing them so hard that they look like amatuers.

You act like sprint trains and organized team efforts to deliver their sprinters to the 200 meter mark is something that was a revelation of the new century. As if the 80's and 90's were the dark ages of sprinting talent.

 

[Maxiton]

Teams are better organized and sprints now are faster than they ever have been. Watch bunch sprints of the 80s and 90s if you are skeptical. And Bullcrap, he has no competitors now. He is just railing them so hard that they look like amatuers.

Yep. There are two speeds in most of Cav's sprints: his speed, and everybody else's speed, usually many bike lengths behind.

Speaking of speed: a few months ago I was watching a documentary about cycling made in the early sixties. Don't recall exactly which one but it might have been Louis Malle's Tour de France doco. Anyway, one scene I was particularly struck by was a mass sprint, where the announcer excitedly intoned that these racers would "reach speeds of up to 35 MPH!" (56 km/h). I think the announcer must have been wrong, but they did have different gearing back then . . . . -- and upon additional reading I've found it was 52x14. 52x14@120RPMs is 35 MPH/56 km/h. @130RPMs = 38MPH/61 km/h. So the announcer was probably correct, give or take. Compare today - 53x11@120RPMs = 45MPH/73km/h. @130 = 50MPH/80km/h. Add in STI/Ergo shifters, so they can change gears out of the saddle, lighter/stiffer bikes, better organized trains (as you said) (as well as maybe some Clinic factors) - and the right environmental factors, and the absolute top end speed heads north of 50MPH/80km/h.

Cav just needs to stay disciplined and stay hungry and keep his nose to the stem, and his place at the apex of sprinter history will be assured.

EDIT Of course, I realize the early sixties aren't really germane to a comparison of Cipo and Cav, but I wanted to mention it because of the fairly dramatic increase in speed. As for Cipo vs. Cav, I'm kind of meh about that because they are so different, and their eras are different. There is room for both.

2nd EDIT Just to be clear: I'm not sure speeds have increased all that much since Cipo's time, and maybe not at all. If we could pit Cipo at his peak against Cav at his, I'm not sure what we'd see other than a great sprint. Maybe Cav would have a slight edge but that's far from sure.

 

[42x16ss]

Yep. There are two speeds in most of Cav's sprints: his speed, and everybody else's speed, usually many bike lengths behind.

And this wasn't the case for Cipollini?

 

[Maxiton]

And this wasn't the case for Cipollini?

Never said it wasn't. I love Cipo. What I said was, room for both.

And I edited my previous post to make that clear.

 

[greenedge]

I think Cav has the potential to be a bigger name than Cipo ( even personality wise ). In Britain he is now the most known cyclist, whereas in Italy Bettini, Coppi, Pantani ( and a host of others are ) along with Cipollini. I also hope that Cav can maybe be more mature in future/ less whingy.

 

[42x16ss]

I think Cav has the potential to be a bigger name than Cipo ( even personality wise ). In Britain he is now the most known cyclist, whereas in Italy Bettini, Coppi, Pantani ( and a host of others are ) along with Cipollini. I also hope that Cav can maybe be more mature in future/ less whingy.

I suspect that Cavendish will end up with the better palmares, certainly. IMHO they are very similar riders, with huge kicks and brilliant top speed.

Cavendish just lacks that panache and crazy persona that Cipo had. I can't imagine Cav ever turning up to sign on dressed as a Legionarre, wearing crazy skinsuits or just generally stirring up the UCI because he can.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

they are completely opposite riders.cipo was one of the last true boulevard sprinters(with petacchi). one that were big and tall and would sprint in one line without almost any body movemenbt. beautiful tos ee, while cavendish is all over the place in his sprints with his body and has an extreme esxplosiuve kick while cipo had the power for the longer sprint after extreme head on speed by his train

 

[Zweistein]

2nd EDIT Just to be clear: I'm not sure speeds have increased all that much since Cipo's time, and maybe not at all. If we could pit Cipo at his peak against Cav at his, I'm not sure what we'd see other than a great sprint. Maybe Cav would have a slight edge but that's far from sure.

If I was betting I would bet on Cav for the sole reason that he at his core is a track sprinter. Track sprinters are crazy fast, smart brave, and agile. I remember reading about Cipo taking a beating on the boards against some true track sprinters. Not that anything else should be expected but Cav has raced against faster riders on the boards. After 200km though, it is probably a lot close. On a short run Cav wins. At the end of San Milan Remo, if Cipo can get his *** over the Poggio maybe then it is a close sprint.

 

[clausdollerup]

As so many others here i don't think we can compare the two and the fact that Cav won the Green Jersey in the Tdf, does not make him greater or better. In the Cipo era, there were less control in the races, no radio controls and few teams organised for pure sprinters. Today you have several teams with the one objective to have a bunch sprint and they have constant radio communication with the team about what to do, when to do it and so on. This requires a completely different skill set, that is probably as difficult to manage and always get right, but it is not often you see a break make it in big one day races or stages in the tours that are for the sprinters as you did in the 1990's.

Personally i thought that Cipo was a great character for cycling whereas i don't thing Cav has that impact yet, even with so many wins. But it will be interesting to see how many Tdf win's Cav gets with Sky if they decide to both go for stage wins, green jersey and an overall with Wiggins.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

If I was betting I would bet on Cav for the sole reason that he at his core is a track sprinter. Track sprinters are crazy fast, smart brave, and agile. I remember reading about Cipo taking a beating on the boards against some true track sprinters. Not that anything else should be expected but Cav has raced against faster riders on the boards. After 200km though, it is probably a lot close. On a short run Cav wins. At the end of San Milan Remo, if Cipo can get his *** over the Poggio maybe then it is a close sprint.

If both get their asses over the Poggio there's no doubt in my mind Cavendisch would blow him away. That 09 sprint was so wickedly fast!