I agree with him to a point if you have too many MTF's it can take away from them and then you get situations like the tour were if the right break away goes away the peloton doesn't care and they ride together until the last few kilometers.
Cav: "The Vuelta has become stupid"
- Thread starter MatParker117
- Start date
I agree with him to a point if you have too many MTF's it can take away from them and then you get situations like the tour were if the right break away goes away the peloton doesn't care and they ride together until the last few kilometers.
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“No-one wants to go to the Vuelta any more unless they crashed out of the Tour de France."
Except for Nairito, Froome, Valverde, Purito, Aru, Landa, Chaves, Majka, Sagan, Degenkolb, Moreno, Pozzovivo, Ewan etc etc
Except for Nairito, Froome, Valverde, Purito, Aru, Landa, Chaves, Majka, Sagan, Degenkolb, Moreno, Pozzovivo, Ewan etc etc
LaFlorecita said:
In the last ten years only two defending tour champs have ridden the vuelta in the same year.
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I do agree with him to a point, the Vuelta has been very unbalanced in recent years and sprinters don't have much of a look in.
Yeah because some of them want to take time out after preparing for 8 months (November-July) for a race that lasts 3 weeks with immense pressure. Also your form, as Froome found out, is affected by the crits you have to go to afterwards.MatParker117 said:
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The big thing that went wrong was they had the perfect storm in 2012. They presented the worst route known to man that year, but a combination of factors came about that prevented the race from being the humongous failure it probably should have been:
1) Contador's ban meant no Giro or Tour for him, meaning the Vuelta was his only viable target year-long
2) Valverde had an illness and injury-ridden Tour and didn't show GC-wise, meaning he saved energy to stagehunt (successfully) and focused on the Vuelta
3) Purito had a career year and Indian summer and the Tour route being so biased to time triallists meant he didn't race it.
So these meant you had the top 3 Spanish cyclists, two of whom specialise in short- and mid-length steep ascents.
Then:
4) Froome fading from his Tour form meant you had an additional wildcard, though he dropped away in the final week.
5) The broadcasting of only the final 60-90 minutes of stages meant that the total lack of action in the early running was not as clear from the TV, making each stage look exciting.
6) With Fuente Dé we got a stage for the ages, and one of the few truly legendary stages the Vuelta has in its back pocket, the best since Pajares 2005.
This meant that the 2012 Vuelta, despite its abysmal route planning, was a resounding success, so Unipublic thought it best to repeat the formula again and again: lots of short-to-mid-length and steep HTFs and MTFs (Cav isn't right when he calls it 11 MTFs, it's 11 uphill finishes. Even so, it's too much). They looked at the races in the late 2000s and saw small gaps being produced and didn't think "gaps are getting smaller on our straightforward mountain stages. Let's increase the gaps by making the mountain stages tougher and lengthening the TT mileage to mean riders have to attack earlier". Rather, they thought "gaps are getting smaller on our straightforward mountain stages. In order to get bigger gaps, we need more of them, because if we have gaps of 15 seconds on ten stages, that's 2'30, that's a good gap!"
Of course, part of the problem is simple: Spain's best cyclists at the moment are Valverde, Purito and Contador, and they're all the wrong side of 30. If you remember back at the turn of the millennium, the Vuelta was much more favourable to the powerhouse riders - the likes of Olano were all-round enough to contend for any GT, but how else would you explain the likes of Ángel Casero and The Aitorminator® winning? Not possible on current routes. Hell, Isidro Nozal was rumbling up the 5% mountains of the 2003 Vuelta all the way to the penultimate day when he lost the jersey in an MTT. The two TT specialists mentioned above won in 2001 and 2002 on final day TTs (which have sadly gone the way of the dodo). The Vuelta at the moment seems to be designed to favour puncheurs and wispy climbers who can force their way up 20% slopes best because that's the kind of riders at the forefront of Spanish cycling. Just like how in Cipollini and Ale-Jet's heydays a whole bunch of flat stages materialized in the Giro, or how when Lance returned to the Tour the TTT came back.
When Valverde and Purito retire, maybe the Vuelta will change again. With Contador still around maybe it becomes an all-rounders' race again with some finesse climbs as well as hell-slopes. If he isn't, then maybe it becomes a pure climber's race for Rubén Fernández or Marc Soler, or maybe it's all up-and-down-all-day for Mikel Landa and a bunch of stages in País Vasco emerge. Or Lobato becomes a beast in super-long slightly hilly flat stages, so they fill the race with 230km stages with a hill or two near the end to be worlds prep but have Lobato win all the time.
1) Contador's ban meant no Giro or Tour for him, meaning the Vuelta was his only viable target year-long
2) Valverde had an illness and injury-ridden Tour and didn't show GC-wise, meaning he saved energy to stagehunt (successfully) and focused on the Vuelta
3) Purito had a career year and Indian summer and the Tour route being so biased to time triallists meant he didn't race it.
So these meant you had the top 3 Spanish cyclists, two of whom specialise in short- and mid-length steep ascents.
Then:
4) Froome fading from his Tour form meant you had an additional wildcard, though he dropped away in the final week.
5) The broadcasting of only the final 60-90 minutes of stages meant that the total lack of action in the early running was not as clear from the TV, making each stage look exciting.
6) With Fuente Dé we got a stage for the ages, and one of the few truly legendary stages the Vuelta has in its back pocket, the best since Pajares 2005.
This meant that the 2012 Vuelta, despite its abysmal route planning, was a resounding success, so Unipublic thought it best to repeat the formula again and again: lots of short-to-mid-length and steep HTFs and MTFs (Cav isn't right when he calls it 11 MTFs, it's 11 uphill finishes. Even so, it's too much). They looked at the races in the late 2000s and saw small gaps being produced and didn't think "gaps are getting smaller on our straightforward mountain stages. Let's increase the gaps by making the mountain stages tougher and lengthening the TT mileage to mean riders have to attack earlier". Rather, they thought "gaps are getting smaller on our straightforward mountain stages. In order to get bigger gaps, we need more of them, because if we have gaps of 15 seconds on ten stages, that's 2'30, that's a good gap!"
Of course, part of the problem is simple: Spain's best cyclists at the moment are Valverde, Purito and Contador, and they're all the wrong side of 30. If you remember back at the turn of the millennium, the Vuelta was much more favourable to the powerhouse riders - the likes of Olano were all-round enough to contend for any GT, but how else would you explain the likes of Ángel Casero and The Aitorminator® winning? Not possible on current routes. Hell, Isidro Nozal was rumbling up the 5% mountains of the 2003 Vuelta all the way to the penultimate day when he lost the jersey in an MTT. The two TT specialists mentioned above won in 2001 and 2002 on final day TTs (which have sadly gone the way of the dodo). The Vuelta at the moment seems to be designed to favour puncheurs and wispy climbers who can force their way up 20% slopes best because that's the kind of riders at the forefront of Spanish cycling. Just like how in Cipollini and Ale-Jet's heydays a whole bunch of flat stages materialized in the Giro, or how when Lance returned to the Tour the TTT came back.
When Valverde and Purito retire, maybe the Vuelta will change again. With Contador still around maybe it becomes an all-rounders' race again with some finesse climbs as well as hell-slopes. If he isn't, then maybe it becomes a pure climber's race for Rubén Fernández or Marc Soler, or maybe it's all up-and-down-all-day for Mikel Landa and a bunch of stages in País Vasco emerge. Or Lobato becomes a beast in super-long slightly hilly flat stages, so they fill the race with 230km stages with a hill or two near the end to be worlds prep but have Lobato win all the time.
Lets face it sprint stages are boring, they are slowly going. 5 years ago it was common to have 8 stages for sprinters in the tour, this year there were 5. Slowly but surely they are being cut down and replaced by entertainig stages with cobbles uphill finishes.... Seems good to me.
- May 15, 2011
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That's not exactly "no-one wants to go to the vuelta any more unless they crashed out of the Tour de France" thoughMatParker117 said:
- May 15, 2011
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Re:
What he means is "replace half of the uphill finishes with pan flat stages!!!111!!"hrotha said:
- Apr 12, 2015
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I somewhat disagree. The Vuelta is supposed to be the hill and mountain-heavy Grand Tour. Even the "flat" stages should have tiny uphill finishes.
It's the the Tour who should offer the variety. There should always be long time trial and a lot stages for the sprinters. I actually disliked this year's design. Too many tiny uphill roads and hill top finishes and not enough pancake flat stages for the sprinters.
It's the the Tour who should offer the variety. There should always be long time trial and a lot stages for the sprinters. I actually disliked this year's design. Too many tiny uphill roads and hill top finishes and not enough pancake flat stages for the sprinters.
Re: Re:
I'd actually go that route, 5-7 uphill/summit finishes seems right for a GT.
LaFlorecita said:What he means is "replace half of the uphill finishes with pan flat stages!!!111!!"hrotha said:
I'd actually go that route, 5-7 uphill/summit finishes seems right for a GT.
A Grand Tour which can be won by a 40-year-old against world class riders like Nibali or Valverde is ridiculous, not just stupid. Vuelta is the black sheep of the big races, at least for me. Cav is right too, although he is out of his prime and even with 20 sprint stages he wouldn't have won anything. I hope he will come back as powerful as we know him next year
- May 15, 2011
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Re: Re:
I agree that you don't need more than that many uphill finishes, but replacing them with boring sprint stages is not the way to go. Replace them with properly designed hilly stages, or maybe a mountain stage with a downhill finish, or an ITT.MatParker117 said:LaFlorecita said:What he means is "replace half of the uphill finishes with pan flat stages!!!111!!"hrotha said:
I'd actually go that route, 5-7 uphill/summit finishes seems right for a GT.
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Re:
This year it was actually well balanced imo. In the past there certainly were too many pancake flat sprintstages.
I agree with Cav that the balnce is gone in the Vuelta. Too many mtf of the same kind. They should add more transition stages instead, more breakaway chances and a sprint stage more wouldnt hurt.
I don't agree that the Vuelta sucks.
DFA123 said:
This year it was actually well balanced imo. In the past there certainly were too many pancake flat sprintstages.
I agree with Cav that the balnce is gone in the Vuelta. Too many mtf of the same kind. They should add more transition stages instead, more breakaway chances and a sprint stage more wouldnt hurt.
I don't agree that the Vuelta sucks.
- Apr 12, 2015
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Re: Re:
A shame we can't add cobbles too.
A 30k cobbled downhill TTT on narrow roads. Add rain showers and you'll have the ultimative challenge.
Mayomaniac said:It's the Vuelta, we could get a long downhill TTTVelolover2 said:
A shame we can't add cobbles too.
A 30k cobbled downhill TTT on narrow roads. Add rain showers and you'll have the ultimative challenge.
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- May 11, 2013
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Vuelta, oh boy. I should keep my mouth shut so I dont insult all those Purito's fans.
Oh well, you know when Purito is close to winning the race and Dumoulin and Chaves are fighting for a podium spot, this race is top notch quality. </sarc>
As much as I dislike Cav, he is right about this race and it is not a secret that the only purpose for most high name participants, (other than few Spanish climbers) was to use this race as a prep for the worlds.
Oh well, you know when Purito is close to winning the race and Dumoulin and Chaves are fighting for a podium spot, this race is top notch quality. </sarc>
As much as I dislike Cav, he is right about this race and it is not a secret that the only purpose for most high name participants, (other than few Spanish climbers) was to use this race as a prep for the worlds.
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