Cavendish vs Goss

[chuckmac7]

so with Goss winning everything right now, HTC is facing another situation. for how long is Cavendish gonna keep pretending he's happy for Goss. Personally i see another Cav vs Greipel situation brewing. i hope i'm wrong, because Goss has a great deal of respect for Cav, and unlike Greipel who felt he deserved a leadership role, and didn't get it, now he's at Lotto with only one win so far, compared to 8 or 9 he had last year at this time with HTC, i don't see Goss wanting to be caught up in that. Bob Stapleton has his work cut out.

 

[Cobblestones]

Of course Cav isn't happy. That's why he's going to Sky.

 

[BroDeal]

Don't worry. Soon Cav will throw a tantrum and insist that Goss not be allowed to do any important races.

 

[ergmonkey]

There's potential for conflict here, but the Goss/Cav arrangement this year is very different from the Greipel/Cav arrangement last year.

For starters, Greipel basically felt oppressed, as he was not allowed to enter the races he wanted to ride. Thus, Cav's palmares was always superior, but this result was basically inevitable because of their respective race schedules. Obviously, this set-up would breed resentment from Greipel. Next, both Greipel and Cav were very much pure sprinters, making competition for team support inevitable.

Goss, on the other hand, has already completely surpassed Cav at this point in the season by winning a monument. Goss has also demonstrated strength and resilience over testing courses (such as hills and cobbles) that Cav has never shown. Rather than making for a worse situation than with Greipel, however, I actually think this fact should help the Cav/Goss relationship. Now, it's impossible for Cav to say hurtful things like 'all of Goss' wins are sh*t wins in little sh*t races' or whatever else he might say to keep Goss down. Instead, given Goss' results--and the fact that he's less of a pure sprinter than Greipel or Cav--should make it a lot harder for Cav to whine about whatever management decides. Meanwhile, Goss can't hold top form forever, and by now he should be content to let Cav go for some gt glory after Goss burns his last spring candles at Gent-Wevelgem.

As for next year, Cav to Sky--for a lot less money than Sky would have had to pay if Cav had gotten his **** in gear this spring.

 

[Matthijs]

I think Greipel has enough of winning stages of the Tour of Turkey and cares more about the big races coming up. He can be a contender at Scheldeprijs, maybe Wevelgem this spring, but also Paris-Tours, Hamburg, Berlin, maybe Plouay and WRR with a decent german team.

 

[Eric8-A]

Don't worry. Soon Cav will throw a tantrum and insist that Goss not be allowed to do any important races.

Is that what he did with Greipel?

 

[Dewulf]

Don't worry. Soon Cav will throw a tantrum and insist that Goss not be allowed to do any important races.

Ja, that's the interesting part. It took a little time for the Greipel/Cav coflict to develop, and i think the spark was a race they were both in with their roles being "confused", lol. So they were both going for the win on the same day.

I can't see the same thing happening with Goss, he's got ambition but i think also patience, so if Cav is there and i mean really 'there' (ie. in form), he'll defer to him, for team harmony.

But it could depend on how well Goss does at Cav's typical bread-and-butter races. If Goss ends up taking a large number of straight sprints, Cav will start to feel threatened, and the whinging will begin. Stapleton will have learnt from the Cav/Greipel days however, and likely will be finding other things to keep Goss busy instead of lining him up at Cav's targets. The next question is, will that eventually frustrate Goss and how long will that take, or will he be happy just doing the hardman races/finishes? Of course, it's the TdF which is gonna test it all eh

 

[fatsprintking]

Really it should not be a big issue - Goss can win races that Cav cant. They should really be a top combination with Goss still being there in harder races where traditionally people like Freire and Hushvold were the only sprinters to make it to the finale and Cav for the pure sprints. There are plenty to go around. Goss is likely to take a pathway lilke Museeuw from sprinter to classics rider.

The issue comes though if HTC actually end up with both riders leaving and the promises that might be made in an effort to keep one.

It will be interesting to see how this element plays out.

 

[lagartija]

There's potential for conflict here, but the Goss/Cav arrangement this year is very different from the Greipel/Cav arrangement last year.

For starters, Greipel basically felt oppressed, as he was not allowed to enter the races he wanted to ride. Thus, Cav's palmares was always superior, but this result was basically inevitable because of their respective race schedules. Obviously, this set-up would breed resentment from Greipel. Next, both Greipel and Cav were very much pure sprinters, making competition for team support inevitable.

Goss, on the other hand, has already completely surpassed Cav at this point in the season by winning a monument. Goss has also demonstrated strength and resilience over testing courses (such as hills and cobbles) that Cav has never shown. Rather than making for a worse situation than with Greipel, however, I actually think this fact should help the Cav/Goss relationship. Now, it's impossible for Cav to say hurtful things like 'all of Goss' wins are sh*t wins in little sh*t races' or whatever else he might say to keep Goss down. Instead, given Goss' results--and the fact that he's less of a pure sprinter than Greipel or Cav--should make it a lot harder for Cav to whine about whatever management decides. Meanwhile, Goss can't hold top form forever, and by now he should be content to let Cav go for some gt glory after Goss burns his last spring candles at Gent-Wevelgem.

As for next year, Cav to Sky--for a lot less money than Sky would have had to pay if Cav had gotten his **** in gear this spring.

while i agree with much of what you have said,
its early yet, i certainly would not count Cav out for the season. he will be crazy fast soon,Cav has shown in the recent past he can come back from a little misfortune, besides Goss, and i do like him, wont hold this level of form past april..

 

[Boardslide]

so with Goss winning everything right now, HTC is facing another situation. for how long is Cavendish gonna keep pretending he's happy for Goss. Personally i see another Cav vs Greipel situation brewing. i hope i'm wrong, because Goss has a great deal of respect for Cav, and unlike Greipel who felt he deserved a leadership role, and didn't get it, now he's at Lotto with only one win so far, compared to 8 or 9 he had last year at this time with HTC, i don't see Goss wanting to be caught up in that. Bob Stapleton has his work cut out.

The only Cav/Goss situation brewing is in the imagination of the majority of posters on this forum. The stress between them is obliviously so great that they decided to add to it by celebrating in Monaco Saturday night and riding together with Renshaw on Sunday before enjoying lunch with their respective girlfriends & wife.

"An easy ride with teammates Mark Renshaw of Australia and Briton Mark Cavendish did wonders to clear the head - not from the post-race celebrations."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/hot-goss-milan-win-has-team-boss-excited-20110321-1c3sf.html

 

[lanternrouge]

Yawn here we go again. It's like last year all over again, then it was Greipel was number one sprinter in the world and Cav was washed up. Now it's substitute Goss for Greipel.
Greipel has now moved to another team so he can prove all those on here right about his so called supremecy and so far not exactly pulling up trees is he?

Come the TdF Cav will be flying as per usual and normal service will be resumed, forum members will be scratching around for something else to jump on about him. Maybe he farted once 10 years ago and it smelled really really bad. Burn him!

Cav and Goss are different riders and there is no reason why they cannot be on the same team.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

With the greipel situation, you could feel the intensity.
I don't really get that here.

That being said, I rate goss higher then both cav and greipel as an overall rider. Deserves to lead races he wants to, but with cav... I'd like to see him or Cav leave.

I think Greipel has enough of winning stages of the Tour of Turkey and cares more about the big races coming up. He can be a contender at Scheldeprijs, maybe Wevelgem this spring, but also Paris-Tours, Hamburg, Berlin, maybe Plouay and WRR with a decent german team.

yeah. Granted he has had an average season thus far... But he isn't alone; cav.

Will be good to see him when all cylinders are firing.

 

[NickBVK]

Cavendish & Greipel were too the same, needed the same scenario to win = not going to work

Goss and Cavendish are v. different = they will survive together on the same team without imploding

 

[Roland Rat]

Goss is actually good for Cav. He can take the glory for HTC and therefore take the pressure off Cav from January to April. Cav can then ease into the season, ready to take over from May in the GTs. Gossy can come back for the late classics, and they both meet up in the worlds. It's the perfect scenario for HTC.

But that's not as interesting as "WAR AT HTC!!!!!", is it.

 

[L'arriviste]

Goss is actually good for Cav. He can take the glory for HTC and therefore take the pressure off Cav from January to April. Cav can then ease into the season, ready to take over from May in the GTs. Gossy can come back for the late classics, and they both meet up in the worlds. It's the perfect scenario for HTC.

But that's not as interesting as "WAR AT HTC!!!!!", is it.

A well-earned +1. The very fact of a war at HTC of itself would be interesting as any internecine war can be, but the corollary would be to make the HTC robot machine less boring too. Something which, perhaps ironically, Goss himself is threatening to do with this MSR win.

 

[The Hitch]

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/hot-goss-milan-win-has-team-boss-excited-20110321-1c3sf.html

Ah crap. They actually talk about this world ranking thing. I cringe every time i see it. If you have a ranking it has to be year round, not everyone starts from zero so that someone performing in early races becomes world number 1.

Goss is actually good for Cav. He can take the glory for HTC and therefore take the pressure off Cav from January to April. Cav can then ease into the season, ready to take over from May in the GTs. Gossy can come back for the late classics, and they both meet up in the worlds. It's the perfect scenario for HTC.

But that's not as interesting as "WAR AT HTC!!!!!", is it.

Htc always had top talents that take the spotlight from Cav. Nothing new. Goss is just another of many.

 

[pmtg99]

the one reason why i see goss and cavendish working out is that goss is, and always has been, more than happy to lead out cav if he has a chance for victory

 

[ergmonkey]

Cav and Goss are different riders and there is no reason why they cannot be on the same team.

Even without any personality conflicts, the above statement isn't necessarily true. One reason Cav and Goss might not be able to stay on the same team is money. This might not be a problem yet, but pretty soon there's going to be a bidding war. Teams want to lure Cav away from HTC and Goss' market value is skyrocketing. Granted, this isn't as exciting as a total b*tch fight in the press between Cav and Greipel, but it may still be enough to force HTC management to make some hard decisions and to clearly favor one rider.

 

[FignonLeGrand]

Cavendish & Greipel were too the same, needed the same scenario to win = not going to work

Goss and Cavendish are v. different = they will survive together on the same team without imploding

No actually cavendish and greipel couldn't be more different. One has one a classic and many many grand tour stages the other hasn't.

Overall this is another ridiculous thread. Goss may turn our to be an excellent rider but Milan san remo fell into his lap. Cancellara almost caught him in the Sprint.

There are many on this forum who like to stack up Farrah, greipel or haussler against cavendish but simple fact is none of them have won anything of real note, cavendish could retire today as the second best grand tour sprinter of all time.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What do you mean they couldn't be more different? They are more or less the same in terms of their strengths and skill sets; just one of them is better than the other.

Some of the stages Cavendish won, Greipel would likely also have won. Other ones, he wouldn't - not because he has a different skillset, but because Cavendish has the same skillset but is better. However, Greipel had never really had the chance to showcase what he could do in the biggest races (or actually he had - he has 2 Giro stages and 4 Vuelta stages, plus he won a GT points jersey a full year before Cavendish - but had been kept out of Le Tour and most of the biggest classics as they were the preserve of Cavendish), and he knew he was being held back. HTC weren't wrong to hold him back as long as Cavendish was performing because Cavendish on form is the better sprinter; but you can see why Greipel would get bored of crushing the field at the Tours of Turkey, Austria and Poland while Cavendish swanned around winning several stages in July, most of which Greipel could have won himself (there are some I don't think he could, mostly the ones where Cavendish was hunting alone or with just one guide).

Cavendish and Goss are different as sprinters because Goss is more versatile but less big on top-end speed.

 

[Archibald]

*sits back and awaits TSF's response*...

 

[kurtinsc]

What do you mean they couldn't be more different? They are more or less the same in terms of their strengths and skill sets; just one of them is better than the other.

Some of the stages Cavendish won, Greipel would likely also have won. Other ones, he wouldn't - not because he has a different skillset, but because Cavendish has the same skillset but is better. However, Greipel had never really had the chance to showcase what he could do in the biggest races (or actually he had - he has 2 Giro stages and 4 Vuelta stages, plus he won a GT points jersey a full year before Cavendish - but had been kept out of Le Tour and most of the biggest classics as they were the preserve of Cavendish), and he knew he was being held back. HTC weren't wrong to hold him back as long as Cavendish was performing because Cavendish on form is the better sprinter; but you can see why Greipel would get bored of crushing the field at the Tours of Turkey, Austria and Poland while Cavendish swanned around winning several stages in July, most of which Greipel could have won himself (there are some I don't think he could, mostly the ones where Cavendish was hunting alone or with just one guide).

Cavendish and Goss are different as sprinters because Goss is more versatile but less big on top-end speed.

The problem I have is I've regularly seen other sprinters match or perform better then Greipel at the biggest races Greipel was allowed to ride.

His first Giro win was a gift from Cav.

He won 4 stages in the Vuelta in 2009. But he was also beaten in sprints by Ciolek, Henderson, Bozic and Farrar. He won just one stage in the 2010 Giro, losing sprints to Farrar twice and Weylandt. His win came late in the race after many top sprinters had withdrawn... against the likes of Dean, Henderson, Brown and Haedo.

Would he have won some stages if he had been the #1 sprinter instead of Cav? Yes. As many? No way. Half as many... maybe.

Guys like Farrar and Hushovd would have had a lot more wins if Greipel had been in those races instead of Cav. Greipel is a good sprinter... but even at his best he's at best on par with the next level of guys behind Cav... perhaps a little further back then that.

 

[jaylew]

Overall this is another ridiculous thread. Goss may turn our to be an excellent rider but Milan san remo fell into his lap. Cancellara almost caught him in the Sprint.

Oh, come on. That was an impressive win, even more impressive than Cav's MSR win, imo.

 

[Potomac]

Oh, come on. That was an impressive win, even more impressive than Cav's MSR win, imo.

I agree...this year's MSR didn't fall into anybody's lap.

 

[Winterfold]

Oh, come on. That was an impressive win, even more impressive than Cav's MSR win, imo.

I can see why you might think that, but he won from an admittedly elite group but one where he was the known best sprinter and Pozzato made a schoolboy error in chasing Gilbert down. It was a great sprint but very clearly on the cards.

Cav's MSR win was just unbelievable. I bet Haussler still doesnt believe it, Cav's acceleration and speed that day were on another planet.

These threads are getting boring. Champs Elysses, Goss has left HTC, or Cav is with Sky so Goss has the best lead out team - who are you going to bet on? There is only one winner.

But Goss can win stuff Cav never will so there is nothing much to say - they clearly get on and will divvy stuff up as they think best.