Cervelo 2009 better then Astana 2009?

[craig1985]

I know it may sound crazy, and that Astana won the Tour de France with Alberto Contador, who also took 11 victories in the first six months of the season, but aside from him, their performances left a lot to be desired. LL won his Tour of California and won local American races that don't mean much. Armstrong went were the money was and Horner was trying to out do Denis Menchov in how many times one can crash their bike. Virtually non existent in all Classics and One Day races, save for Max Iglinsky at E3 Prijs Vlaanderen. Kloden won a few time trials at Tirreno-Adriatico and Giro del Trentino. When Vino came back, he looked very aggressive. Here is a run down of their season: Here.

On the other hand at Cervelo, with a run down of their season here. Not just what they won, podiums at MSR, RVV, and P-R, and Gerrans came in the top 10 of all three Ardennes Classics. Plus the Points Jersey at the TdF. I know they are not interested in Pro Tour at this stage, but if they were, then they would have done enough to get in.

So I think in terms of consistency, all round results in different type of races (stage races, Classics etc.), as well as quality over quantity, and not just being reliant on having the best stage racer in the world to make their season look semi-decent.

If anything, take Contador out and Astana (2009) look very ordinary.

 

[53 x 11]

different horses, different courses.

apples and oranges..........ect.

 

[taiwan]

If Astana's only a vehicle for Contador in the Tour, you could compare their GT ability, and then consider that Cervélo looks good for some classics as well. I think Cervélo is the stronger team. Cervélo have the possibility of winning all sorts of things, but I suppose the Tour de France is the Tour de France (is it?). Also considering what happened at Astana, they're doing ok to have a team together at all.

 

[UpTheRoad]

Uh, you are forgetting a big one...the Nevada City Classic.

 

[Bluebeard]

The point is wholly valid if you remove Contador.

Which means that Cervelo was better in 2009 than Radio Shack 2010...

As someone who is more interested in the Spring Classics and other one day races than the Grand Tours, I would agree. It is very hard to compare though. Kind of like comparing the athleticism of a cross country skier and a tennis player. Of course, we all know the answer to that one.

 

[Bike Boy]

Cervelo was the big suprise of 2009 if you ask me. Everyone expected Katusha to be the new big team but Cervelo stole their thunder right away.

 

[Bike Boy]

The lose of Gerrans and Pauwels will lower the expectation in 2010 though

 

[auscyclefan94]

The lose of Gerrans and Pauwels will lower the expectation in 2010 though

Th treatment of gerrans and pauwels doesn't do them any favours when they would be trying to keep them.

As an all round team (which gets places in all types of events): cervelo wins
As a victorious stage race team: Astana wins

 

[hfer07]

Th treatment of gerrans and pauwels doesn't do them any favours when they would be trying to keep them.

As an all round team (which gets places in all types of events): cervelo wins
As a victorious stage race team: Astana wins

just looking at Grand tour performances:

Giro d'Italia
Cervelo
Carlos Sastre= 2
Simon Gerrans=1
Ignatas Konovalovas=1
Astana
none
Tour de France
Cervelo:
Thor Hushov=1
Heinrich Haussler=1
Astana:
Alberto Contador=2
TTT=1
Vuelta a Espana
Cervelo:
Simon Gerrans=1
Philip Deignan=1
Astana:
none

 

[Publicus]

just looking at Grand tour performances:

Giro d'Italia
Cervelo
Carlos Sastre= 2
Simon Gerrans=1
Ignatas Konovalovas=1
Astana
none
Tour de France
Cervelo:
Thor Hushov=1
Heinrich Haussler=1
Astana:
Alberto Contador=2
TTT=1
Vuelta a Espana
Cervelo:
Simon Gerrans=1
Philip Deignan=1
Astana:
none

What about the other stage races that Astana entered (Paris Nice, Algarvae, Tour of the Basque Country, Castilla y Leon, Volta a Cataluyna)? ACF's point was with respect to stage races, not simply grand tours.

 

[auscyclefan94]

just looking at Grand tour performances:

Giro d'Italia
Cervelo
Carlos Sastre= 2
Simon Gerrans=1
Ignatas Konovalovas=1
Astana
none
Tour de France
Cervelo:
Thor Hushov=1
Heinrich Haussler=1
Astana:
Alberto Contador=2
TTT=1
Vuelta a Espana
Cervelo:
Simon Gerrans=1
Philip Deignan=1
Astana:
none

Compare how many grand tour winners are on each squad and/or stage race winners are on each squad.

Astana:
9x 1st in tour de france (Armstrong, Contador)
2x 2nd in tdf (Kloden)
2x 3rd in tdf (Leipheimer, Armstrong)
30 stage wins amongst riders (around abouts)
1x 1st in Giro d italia (Contador)
1x 3rd in giro (popovych)
1x 1st in Vuelta a espana
1x 2nd in Vuelta
4x 1st in TOC
2x 1st Vuelta a Castilla Leon
1x 1st paris nice
1x 1st Tour de Romandie
1x 1st Tirrenno Adriatico
2x 1st in Vuelta al Pais vaisco
3x 1st in Dauphine Libere
1x 1st Tour de Suisse
1x Fleche wallone


Sorry, i didn't explain myself. over all years from all squads with the riders of 2009. Probably have made the odd error but you get my point.

 

[Bike Boy]

Th treatment of gerrans and pauwels doesn't do them any favours when they would be trying to keep them.

As an all round team (which gets places in all types of events): cervelo wins
As a victorious stage race team: Astana wins

I can remember Pauwels had to give up a stage victory during the giro because of team orders.
Sastre had no problems and didn't need the extra protection, only the management of Cervelo understood the logic behind the decision.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I can remember Pauwels had to give up a stage victory during the giro because of team orders.
Sastre had no problems and didn't need the extra protection, only the management of Cervelo understood the logic behind the decision.

I'm agreeing with you...! Cervelo looked like real idiots with pauwels descision and then they say to gerrans when they brought him over that he would be their to support sastre at the tour and then don't select him. Joke!!

 

[theyoungest]

The lose of Gerrans and Pauwels will lower the expectation in 2010 though

Gerrans is a big loss for them, not too sure about Pauwels. BTW, Pauwels has more or less admitted that the communication problem in the infamous Giro stage was mostly his fault. Although his DS did indeed look like a right old idiot at that moment.

 

[craig1985]

The point is wholly valid if you remove Contador.

Which means that Cervelo was better in 2009 than Radio Shack 2010...

As someone who is more interested in the Spring Classics and other one day races than the Grand Tours, I would agree. It is very hard to compare though. Kind of like comparing the athleticism of a cross country skier and a tennis player. Of course, we all know the answer to that one.

I think Cervelo were able to split their resources up for the Classics, sprints, and in the GT's where Sastre rode a fine Giro and in the end went too hard to be in any form for the Tour.

 

[taiwan]

I posted something earlier on, having misunderstood the original post, but comparing their 2009 records from the links- Astana has the better. I think Astana's stage race victories through Contador and Leipheimer are better quality wins that the stages and races that Cervélo took. Cervélo's biggest wins: maybe the Green Jersey and the Omloop Het Nieuwsblad. Contador won the Tour, with Armstrong on the podium also. Unfortunately Cervélo did not quite realise one, two or three big classics wins which would have made the situation quite different.

 

[Bluebeard]

I posted something earlier on, having misunderstood the original post, but comparing their 2009 records from the links- Astana has the better. I think Astana's stage race victories through Contador and Leipheimer are better quality wins that the stages and races that Cervélo took. Cervélo's biggest wins: maybe the Green Jersey and the Omloop Het Nieuwsblad. Contador won the Tour, with Armstrong on the podium also. Unfortunately Cervélo did not quite realise one, two or three big classics wins which would have made the situation quite different.

Yes, how remiss of them to gift Cavendish, Devolder, Boassen Hagen and Boonen MSR, RvV, GW and PR. I would be surprised if we ever hear of them again.

 

[taiwan]

Yes, how remiss of them to gift Cavendish, Devolder, Boassen Hagen and Boonen MSR, RvV, GW and PR. I would be surprised if we ever hear of them again.

Just noting that the record of wins doesn't reflect Cervélo's season that accurately, but I think Astana was stronger on the basis of what they did actually win.

Hope Cervélo take one of those races this year in recognition of what they've done. New classics oriented teams to contend with, though.

 

[Bike Boy]

Just noting that the record of wins doesn't reflect Cervélo's season that accurately, but I think Astana was stronger on the basis of what they did actually win.

Hope Cervélo take one of those races this year in recognition of what they've done. New classics oriented teams to contend with, though.

Although this comparison makes no sense, I do understand your reasoning.
Of course Astana has won bigger things than Cervelo.
If you are going to rate team succes, the only two things that really matters are magnitude and amount of wins.
Which is why I don't like this argument:

Yes, how remiss of them to gift Cavendish, Devolder, Boassen Hagen and Boonen MSR, RvV, GW and PR. I would be surprised if we ever hear of them again.

Don't get me wrong, that's indeed very great results but ultimately succes is all about winning

 

[Bluebeard]

My point was to the side of the major debate on Astana v Cervelo, and was that Cervelo did not "decide" not to win those races, and that they in fact made a great effort to win them and targetted victories in those races. Traditionally, targetting a race win when competing with another 21 teams or so does not guarantee that you will win. This was in response to what felt rather like a point suggesting that the management of Cervelo were not targetting the big wins. The reality is that they were, but so were other more established, more experienced and better resourced teams.

Alberto Contador won more prestigiously than the whole of the Cervelo team in terms of overall stage races. In terms of individual wins, and indeed jerseys and so forth, the rest of "Astana" combined did not do as well as Cervelo.

 

[Bike Boy]

My point was to the side of the major debate on Astana v Cervelo, and was that Cervelo did not "decide" not to win those races, and that they in fact made a great effort to win them and targetted victories in those races. Traditionally, targetting a race win when competing with another 21 teams or so does not guarantee that you will win. This was in response to what felt rather like a point suggesting that the management of Cervelo were not targetting the big wins. The reality is that they were, but so were other more established, more experienced and better resourced teams.

Alberto Contador won more prestigiously than the whole of the Cervelo team in terms of overall stage races. In terms of individual wins, and indeed jerseys and so forth, the rest of "Astana" combined did not do as well as Cervelo.

Couldn't agree more. Lack of attention on my part.

 

[Bluebeard]

Couldn't agree more. Lack of attention on my part.

No worries, it happens to the best of us. Even me.

Maybe not Susan though...

 

[pmcg76]

Perhaps a more realistic comparison would be to see how both teams lived up to their pre-season expectations considering their respective squads. Its a bit like comparing Manchester United and a team like Aston Villa. Expectations are not the same.

I would think Astana might have just about met their aims although they didnt win or podium at the Giro and didnt sweep the Tour. Take Contador out of Astana and they are left with Levi at Cali and thats it. Astana had the best rider in the world on their team but a one horse team really.

Apart from Sastre at the Tour, I think Cervelo more than exceeded expectations. Haussler had a break-out season and guys like Konovalovas and Deignan taking wins at GTs was impressive. More of the Cervelo guys stepped up than those at Astana.

On this basis, Cervelo had the better season but its really about what basis is used for judging perfromances.

 

[taiwan]

So I think in terms of consistency, all round results in different type of races (stage races, Classics etc.), as well as quality over quantity, and not just being reliant on having the best stage racer in the world to make their season look semi-decent.
If anything, take Contador out and Astana (2009) look very ordinary.

I agree with the OP that for consistency and versatility, Cervélo were superior. I agree that if you remove Contador's results from Astana, those that remain wouldn't be as impressive as Cervélo's.I think that as the results stand, though, Astana had the better year, because their overall wins at those few stage races are worth a lot.

Also: for a first season Cervélo's was great. They did hire Hushovd and Sastre, though, from whom one could expect impressive results. Maybe Haussler and Gerrans were the best value signings. I can't remember how Haussler was rated at the time he moved to Cervélo, but being at Gerolsteiner- about to pack up- can't do anything for your market value. Also Gerrans wasn't fancied for the World Championship or one of the Ardennes Classics a year ago.

 

[ScottyMuser]

I agree with the OP that for consistency and versatility, Cervélo were superior. I agree that if you remove Contador's results from Astana, those that remain wouldn't be as impressive as Cervélo's.I think that as the results stand, though, Astana had the better year, because their overall wins at those few stage races are worth a lot.

Also: for a first season Cervélo's was great. They did hire Hushovd and Sastre, though, from whom one could expect impressive results. Maybe Haussler and Gerrans were the best value signings. I can't remember how Haussler was rated at the time he moved to Cervélo, but being at Gerolsteiner- about to pack up- can't do anything for your market value. Also Gerrans wasn't fancied for the World Championship or one of the Ardennes Classics a year ago.

Lets review this shall we - Contador won won GT (the TDF, with 1 TT and a TTT win). Contador than did well at some of the smaller week long stage tours, and nothing else (TOC doesn't count for the same reason that TDU doesn't, they were both meaningless, "turn up for a warm up ride in the sun when europe is cold" races), but nothing in any 1 day races, let alone the classics
You take AC out, and the best Astana have is a single TTT, from the TDF, and a 3rd (which was only due to AC helping LA out half the course instead of looking after himself as he had already won)
Compare that with Cervelo, who got a podium in a GT GC, and green jersey in the TDF, multiple stage wins/podiums in the GTs, and multiple wins/podiums in the shorter stage races and one day classics. They had different races take these wins, all of which are younger than LL/AK/LA and have a brighter future. And all this with a fraction of the budget. CTT for me had the better year all things considered, despite AC winning the TDF (which for LA-fanboys is the only race that matters).
And the fact that it was the first year for Cervelo is even more impressive.